Realignment of Porter Cable Tools?

[Michael Lutz]

This is a link to the Popular Woodworking Blog regarding new porter cable tools.

http://links.mkt230.com/ctt?kn=19&m=2064174&r=MTg3NjI3NDkzOAS2&b=0&j=OTcwMzQzNzgS1&mt=1

B&D seems to be be placing porter cable between Dewalt and B&D tools.

Mike

[eric auer]

Is it just me, or do the new line of PC tools in that article already "look" cheaper........

[Adam Cavaliere]

All I can say is WOW. Talk about taking a name and burying it in the dirt.

They did say that they were going to keep their routers and ROS the same. So now consumers have to guess at which is a good PC tool and which is a crap PC tool.

Anyone else very disappointed by this?

[mike holden]

What's to be disappointed about? Do you buy the brand name? Or the tool?
If you buy a tool based on the tool, then what difference does it make what name is on the box?

It is sad to see good tools come off the market, but then, if they made money for the company, they would still be sold. Remember, P-C was a losing proposition and were sold. That indicates that people were unwilling to buy what they offered at a price that allowed the company to make money. This indicates that people are more interested in cheap than good.

We get what we ask for (with our dollars).
Mike

[Pat Germain]

Remember, P-C was a losing proposition and were sold. That indicates that people were unwilling to buy what they offered at a price that allowed the company to make money. This indicates that people are more interested in cheap than good. Mike

I don't really agree here, Mike. I was a big Porter Cable fan. My first, quality power tools were, and still are, Porter Cable; and I was quite willing to pay for them. The prices were similar to Makita, DeWalt, Milwaukee and other quality tools.

I also think PC had a good customer base who were all willing to pay for the PC name. Sure, I can compare features between different tools, but if I get very good performance and reliability from a particular brand, I'm going to stick with it. So, in some ways, I did buy for the PC name.

I think the problem with PC tools is when B&D bought them, they were similar or better than many DeWalt tools. Likely, it didn't make sense to B&D accountants to sell two lines of tools with many of the same features and quality. So, they decided to dumb-down the PC line, which is too bad.

The purpose of B&D buying PC was likely due more to eliminating competition than anything else. I guess B&D thought they could make some money milking the PC name with lower quality tools for awhile.

Was PC seriously on the verge of going belly-up? Or, did they just get an offer they couldn't refuse?

[Brent Smith]

I read that this afternoon also. It leads me to wonder how long we'll be able to get parts for the tools we have. The only PC tools I have are their routers, but quite a few of them. Even though they say they're going to keep producing them, I wonder how long that will last. B&D has been a home owner tool line for some time now and with Dewalt (their new 'high end' line) and two levels of PC (their new 'mid level' line) added to the mix it can't be long before the bean counters start yelling for cut backs on at least one of the lines. My bet is that it'll be on the few 'older' Pc tools they're keeping if for no other reason than that they aren't a color match!!

[Peter Quadarella]

I read this earlier and I think it's a shame. Personally I think it's the beginning of the end of a good name.

I buy the tool, not the name, but often it is difficult to research every aspect of something, and the name can give you some indication of the level of quality if you've bought them before.

[Denny Rice]

I read that this afternoon also. It leads me to wonder how long we'll be able to get parts for the tools we have. The only PC tools I have are their routers, but quite a few of them. Even though they say they're going to keep producing them, I wonder how long that will last. B&D has been a home owner tool line for some time now and with Dewalt (their new 'high end' line) and two levels of PC (their new 'mid level' line) added to the mix it can't be long before the bean counters start yelling for cut backs on at least one of the lines. My bet is that it'll be on the few 'older' Pc tools they're keeping if for no other reason than that they aren't a color match!!


I agree with Brent here about replacement parts for tools... Will PC become another Craftsman? Don't get me wrong I own some Craftsman power tools, but trying to order parts is no fun...I would rather stick myself with hot needles... Don't even try to go to the store to order parts or the sales person will just look at you with a blank stupid look. And if you call their 800 number for replacement parts you have a 25% chance that you will get a "qualified" tech that knows his or her product. I've ordered and re-ordered parts while I wait to fix that tool. The best company I have seen as far as CS goes has to be Leigh hands down, I was having troble with my new VRS for my D4R and even after the parts were mailed out I received an e-mail from the tech I as working with to make sure everything was working ok. Now thats Customer service.

[Colin Giersberg]

If that is what they are going to, then I will not be spending any of my money on Porter Cable tools. I guess I will just have to slowly replace my tools with Festool products.

Regards, Colin

[Chris Kennedy]

I own several PC tools, and while I do not buy simply because of a brand name, I have generally associated PC with quality tools. When making a tool decision, PC has made generally made the shortlist. Looking at the new line, I agree with Eric -- they already look cheap. And I agree with the general logic -- if DeWalt is going to be the top line, PC is going to take a hit.

On the bright side, my wife said that I should buy all the PC tools I am going to want before they take a slide . . . .

Cheers,

Chris

[Chuck Tringo]

For their non router products, it makes sense; DeWalt has been the champ of contractors for a while now, I can say easily that 90% of the plumbers/electricians/HVAC/whateverthehellelseineededtofixmy house have used DeWalt. The question I really have is this: Will we start to see some yellow in the New Yankee Workshop soon after ? :cool:

[Noah Levy]

I'll be sad to see PC go out like this - a cheap line of tools that ends up frustrating users, which is similar to my experience with DeWalt: an expensive line that frustrates users. I suspect that DeWalt is popular with contractors because of their huge advertising buget. Anyway, it's all a wash - just another reason to buy Bosch.

[Brian Loucks]

Well, I was planning on buying another PC Router, (# 3), maybe I'll check out Bosch. My Bosch jig saw is on of my favorite tools.

[Jamie Buxton]

Whew! Considering how badly DeWalt's reliability has been reduced in the past few years, it is remarkable that it would be the best that company offers!

[Joel Goodman]

Dumbest move ever. Don't they teach the folks who run these companies that once you trash a brand name it's not easy to repair. Look at the sorry rep of Delta with all the junk they sell under their brand.

[Chuck Tringo]

Dumbest move ever. Don't they teach the folks who run these companies that once you trash a brand name it's not easy to repair. Look at the sorry rep of Delta with all the junk they sell under their brand.

Aye, the Delta Shopmaster line hurt them quite a bit; I still want to see the new Unisaw however

[Curt Harms]

Sure looks like it. Ryobi makes some very good value stuff but not regarded as a premium brand. Oh well, who's surprised? The acquired don't usually fare well in an acquisition.

[Glenn Howard]

I suspect that DeWalt is popular with contractors because of their huge advertising buget. Anyway, it's all a wash - just another reason to buy Bosch.

I'm convinced that part of DeWalt's success is because of the huge number of advertising dollars they throw around. They make a point to target the Nascar crowd, and they get a lot of mileage out of that market (no pun intended). They do make some nice tools, but I would say that very few of them are the cream of the crop.

I've never been loyal to any one brand. When I'm buying a new power tool, I generally search the web for opinions, user reviews, pro reviews, forum discussions, etc, and then get my hands on as many as I can before settling on what the consensus generally points to as the better tool.

[Harley Reasons]

After reading the press release from Popular Woodworking I understand fully what their doing. This is in direct response to Milwaukee becoming a HD BORG exclusive home center brand. Lowe's is no longer carrying any of the Milwaukee items once stock has been depleted.
As to the PC kits and price points, they match exactly with the Ryobi kits we sell at the HD BORG. So what your looking at is Lowe's attempt to grab part of the market share that Ryobi has enjoyed. The PC's may be good tools in the long run but only time will tell. Folks can say what they want about the Ryobi battery powered tools, but I've been using them now for several years and never had a failure. For the average homeowner, the Ryobi line is an excellent value and offers a comprehensive line of products that uses the 18V battery.
My guess is that PC will be expanding into other tools as well, we may even see a PC weedwhacker and a PC chainsaw.

[Denny Rice]

It will also be interesting in the next couple of years if Norm and the NYW slowly replace their "inferior" PC tools with high -end DeWalt....I believe PC has always been associated with "fine woodworking" its a sad day in woodworking.

[glenn bradley]

Is it just me, or do the new line of PC tools in that article already "look" cheaper........

That was my EXACT reaction. And to think, someone makes the big bucks to decide how to make those things look. Must be the same guy that picked Ridgid's new color. Oh well, I have a mixed bag of brands. I tend to go for the better tool regardless of name.

[Ron Bontz]

:eek:Well that just made my day.:( I have been a PC fan for a long time. My routers are all PC (5), nail guns and staplers (5), saw boss, drum sander (hand held), detail sander, 2 orbital sanders, finish sander, Omnijig, etc. That's just what I can think of off the top. I have Delta, Milwaukee, Dewalt, and Bosch as well. I personally don't consider Dewalt to be that great of a tool. But they do seem to have a better marketing and PR effort in place. Woodworkers, novice and pro, are the minority compared to the average Joe home owner who doesn't have a clue, wants it cheap, isn't willing to spend the effort or bucks to do it right, and doesn't mind doing something half a-- and throwing away the cheap tool afterwards. After all, you can always blame the tool and leave the mess for the next person to fix. It's all about supply and demand and making a profit. We are all guilty in that regard.:(

[mike holden]

Pat, whether they were making money or not is pretty well answered by the change in tool line-up. If they HAD been making money, then the new owner would keep the lineup and continue to make money. They didnt, so it becomes obvious that PC was NOT making money.
Think like a businessman - the name on the tool dont count. Does it make money or not?
We all would like to think that making a good tool leads to profit, but that is not so.
Selling something for more than it costs to make is what leads to profit.
PC could not make enough to keep BD from buying them - that is self-evident.
Mike

[Matthew Voss]

PC could not make enough to keep BD from buying them - that is self-evident.
Mike

The point of an acquisition is to increase market share - not always indicative of losses. Look at the acquisition of Anheuser Busch by InBev.

Maybe I missed something but I didn't read anything that would suggest PC will no longer offer the same quality products. I understand this line to be an addition, yes? I have not experienced a drop in the quality of Milwaukee tools after its acquisition by Techtronic or the deal with HD.

As for Dewalt, there are many tools that continue to be recommended on this site - routers, planers, etc.

[Michael Boyle]

Well, this really bites. I have been a PC fan for a long time. I too have their routers, Circular Saw, Omnijig, etc. I have been very happy will all of them. Now I see that B&D is going to do to their name the same as WMH Tool Group did to Performax. Take a high end brand and destroy it for sales at the BORG's. I also cannot figure out the market they are after, most users either want a cheap throw away tool for a couple of household jobs or a good tool that will last for years. I don't know of anyone who wants a marginal tool that does not meet either of those requirements. I suppose Ryobi, but even their tools looks better than the products PC was showing in that article. OH WELL .. I guess Bosch will be getting my high end dollars in the future.

[Jim Becker]

Frankly, this doesn't surprise me in the least. With three lines of hand-held power tools under one roof, at some point they had to do some segmentation. Since Dewalt has been in the "family" a lot longer, it being relegated to the "high end" is also not surprising.

At least it appears that they are retaining the routers "as is" for now. It will be interesting to see if they also maintain some of the other higher-end PC tools, such as the worm drive saws, etc., that you often see in use by pros.

[Mark Patoka]

If Lowe's becomes the exclusive big-box outlet for P-C, does that mean HD is going to yellow-tag clearance all their P-C stuff? HD carries the P-C router bits, compressors, etc. while Lowe's carries Bosch router bits. Or does this only apply to the new "value" line? Might have to be on the lookout for some potential deals.

If P-C is the new mid-level for cordless drills, does that mean the B&D Firestorm line (or whatever they have now) is really not worth the money? And I agree, the new P-C line just looks cheap.

[Peter Quadarella]

There's plenty of successful companies that get bought out. The owners, or share holders decide they'd rather get the money now instead of over the years. Or the purchaser goes after them to eliminate competition or gain new flexibility or economies of scale. There are tons of reasons a company may be bought by another, and most of them are not because the one being purchased is a money pit.

[Greg Karol]

I honestly think that people are blowing this way out of proportion. It seems to me that they were going after brand recognition to fill a void in a market segment.

They said that this won't affect the other high end PC tools, and I would have to think they know that people still love PC routers. The one thing that seals the deal for me is the fact they just brought out the Omni Jig not that long ago, meaning that the high quality is still there.

Also I am not sure why everyone here is getting all bent out of shape over a low cost drill. Do that many of you own cheap tools? I Know I sure don't, and it would be a cold day in hell before I walked into one of the big box stores and picked up a royobi, ridgid, B&D, or this new PC stuff. It is going to be the same situations as every other tool out there you will get what you paid for. One of the comments in the popular woodworking blog stands out for me: There are thousands of high end users and millions of hobbysts. Basically this new tool series is not for you so "keep moving nothing to see here"

[Chuck Tringo]

It looks like the new PC line might be replacing BD Firestorm; Lowes was the exclusive distributor for Firestorm for a few years and today while browsing it looks like they have all of the FS stuff on clearance....

[Curt Harms]

It looks like the new PC line might be replacing BD Firestorm; Lowes was the exclusive distributor for Firestorm for a few years and today while browsing it looks like they have all of the FS stuff on clearance....

That would make sense. I was wondering why B&D would have two "firestorm lines". Gotta remember that B&D is first and foremost a mass merchandiser. Coffee makers, can openers etc. I'm certain the new tool line will drill the 4 dozen holes and drive the 4 dozen screws a year that Joe Homeowner needs and do so for years.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Is it just me, or do the new line of PC tools in that article already "look" cheaper........


I have a 30 year old PC speed bloc 1/4 sheet sander which I absolutely love. I bought another recently.
The pad is cheaper the sheet metal is thinner and it's not quite the same

And this
"an area of the market that PC feels is full of value-conscientious, value-driven buyers. "

He means broke ass losers.

[Butch Edwards]

Dumbest move ever. Don't they teach the folks who run these companies that once you trash a brand name it's not easy to repair. Look at the sorry rep of Delta with all the junk they sell under their brand.


Aye, the Delta Shopmaster line hurt them quite a bit; I still want to see the new Unisaw however

fellows, this is what a Delta certified tech(who used to sell Deltas in Maryland) told me just a few weeks ago. I had my Delta 31-255X over to his shop for repair( he moved here to WV about 3 years ago and travels to Baltimore as a Delta repairman). he was a nice enough fellow who told me that Delta, poterCable and Dewalt were ALL owned by B&D now, and that thingsa were being shaken up pretty good at corporate.many tools would no longer be offered..parts will no longer be offered, and that quality was no longer the bottom line on any product. profit is now Top Dog for ALL those tools. I for one believe what he said, and understand that companies like Grizzly/Shop Fox/other imports are claiming more and more of the market..only stands to reason that something had to give, since there are less "professional" grade tools bought in a year as compared to the lower end tools. cheaper is now the Leader

[Thomas Marr]

Frankly, this doesn't surprise me in the least. With three lines of hand-held power tools under one roof, at some point they had to do some segmentation. Since Dewalt has been in the "family" a lot longer, it being relegated to the "high end" is also not surprising.


In marketing, what they are doing to PC is called "harvesting the brand." Imagine all those folks walking into Lowes and saying "WOW, I can buy a Porter Cable for this? Gimme one."

What they SHOULD have done is go higher-end and offer an alternative to Festool. DeWalt, and I have plenty, is hardly a high end "professional" tool anymore (if it ever was...as everyone knows, it was an old respected RAS brand they bought to bring out a line of professional tools...like Rigid at HD). They harvested that brand some time ago.

Festool needs some competetion and it would have been nice to see if "American inginuity" could have been utilized to bring innovation and quality back to the market at a reasonable price point. However, it's much eaiser, and more profitable in the SHORT run, to just harvest the good PC name. To me, this is the lazy man's way and I'm quickly removing the B&D family of brands from consideration (I bet that scares them). Alot of people put blood, sweat, and tears into those brands over the years. Sad to see a lazy marketing guy (and I'm a marketing guy btw) throw all that away so he can make a easy bonus the next couple of years.

Rant over.

[Joe Jensen]

Frankly, this doesn't surprise me in the least. With three lines of hand-held power tools under one roof, at some point they had to do some segmentation. Since Dewalt has been in the "family" a lot longer, it being relegated to the "high end" is also not surprising.

At least it appears that they are retaining the routers "as is" for now. It will be interesting to see if they also maintain some of the other higher-end PC tools, such as the worm drive saws, etc., that you often see in use by pros.

The sad thing is that 10 years ago PC was the high end, and Dewalt was solid middle. I doubt Dewalt has moved up in quality in that time. Essentially a higher end product line has been eliminated and we have "YET ANOTHER" mid tier me-too offering. What a great press conference.

Seems like B&B drank too much of their own Dewalt "we are a top tier" coolaid before they made this decision...joe

[Joe Jensen]

I have a 30 year old PC speed bloc 1/4 sheet sander which I absolutely love. I bought another recently.
The pad is cheaper the sheet metal is thinner and it's not quite the same

And this
"an area of the market that PC feels is full of value-conscientious, value-driven buyers. "

He means broke ass losers.


NOW THAT IS FUNNY :D

[Pat Germain]

Pat, whether they were making money or not is pretty well answered by the change in tool line-up. If they HAD been making money, then the new owner would keep the lineup and continue to make money. They didnt, so it becomes obvious that PC was NOT making money.
Think like a businessman - the name on the tool dont count. Does it make money or not?
We all would like to think that making a good tool leads to profit, but that is not so.
Selling something for more than it costs to make is what leads to profit.
PC could not make enough to keep BD from buying them - that is self-evident.
Mike

Again, I would politely disagree. I don't think it's at all self-evident. On the contrary, it's pretty difficult to sell a company which is losing money. It's quite likely PC was a solid company making money. As suggested, the owners probably just wanted to cash in.

B&D accountants probably looked at the PC tools and profits and thought the margins were too thin. It's more profitable to shave a lot of cost from manufacturing and then shave just a little off the wholesale price. Bingo, big profits. B&D accountants don't care about the brand or serious woodworkers. They'll harvest the brand, run it into the ground, then move on.

This happens all the time with traditional American brands. Anyone remember Schwinn bicycles?

[Bill Geyer]

Leave it to B & D to destroy another good name.
Does anyone else remember the damage that Rockwell did to PC and Delta a few decades ago?
Those who ignore the lessons of history are destined to repeat it - (or something along those lines)

[Bruce Wrenn]

First, neither PC, Delta, or Devilbiss were losing money. Pentair, who owned all three, decided to concentrate on the water treatment business. Water treatment is what they do, and Delta, PC, DeVillbiss were side lines, which they divested. They insisted that the three be sold as a group. According to one source, B&D only wanted DeVillbiss. Parts and service have been nothing less than a nightmare. "We have your part, we just don't know where." Other brands will quickly fill the voids. They always have. I buy because a tool fits my needs, not because of the brand.

[Dave Lehnert]

I think people is getting too wrapped up on the Brand name. What makes the difference if they design a tool and now paint it yellow instead of gray???? If it's good, it's good. NO BRAND has everything good.

[Mike Keers]

Dave, I think you and some others might be missing a point some are trying to make. I've been in the trades for over 40 years, everything from Union ironworker, welder and millwright to machine shop, a framer to finish carpenter to cabinet maker to licensed GC--now I have a one man woodshop making high end commissioned furniture and studio furniture on spec. That resume just to show I've been around tools a wee bit.

In years past--many years ago when tools were still made here, if you walked onto any jobsite or into probably any shop in the country you'd see two brands of hand power tools, Milwaukee and PC, and Delta ruled the machinery as far as woodworking. I don't recall ever hearing about DeWalt except as a low end handyman-grade tool. B & D was below notice, much less consideration. If I wanted a tool, I know I could buy a PC or Millwaukee on name alone. There weren't a dozen choices of all-imported crap of various levels of quality. If you bought a Millwaukee 3/8" hand drill, you knew you were getting the toughest commercial and industrial grade tool out there. Well, Bosch too, but we're talking Murkin-made (or supposedly so).

My first introduction to the overall cheapening that's been detailed above was when I bought a Delta drill press on reputation some years back, after that Delta company sale, then discovered it was a so-so Taiwan tool. I was devastated, but bought it figgering if they put their name on it, they must oversee production to guarantee a certain level of quality. Maybe they did back then too, because I've still got the press and I'm still using the original Delta 12" lunchbox planer, purchased in 1990 or '91, and I've run easily over ten thousand board feet thru it over the years, maybe twice that. Sure, I had to make a few repairs, plain old normal wear. I wouldn't buy one of the newer ones, just seem cheaper and sleazier.

So bottom line a 'name' IS a very important thing, reputations stretching over decades are being trashed. Before you could buy the tool on name alone, but no more.

Side note, I'm still baffled by this attempt to present DW as 'high end'. Makita, Bosch, some other old names are high end, to me, DW is still borg home handyman grade stuff, tho I'll reserve judgment on the new stuff they bring out if they are really trying to improve quality. But to dumb down brands like Delta and PC...sad, very sad.

[Jerry Olexa]

I'm amazed by this marketing "strategy" . It tells me they do not know their market or customers. Mike said it well. Also, to me DW was the so-so Borg brand but PC was one of the proven pro lines. Many of my tools are PC..Sigh...another casualty of big business's zeal for the $..

[Peter Quadarella]

I'll just throw this in, maybe I'm crazy though :)

When you think about hundreds or thousands of people out there, working for Porter Cable, and thinking of ways to make a better, more ingenious, more lasting item, it raises the human spirit a little bit. Maybe they are just cogs in a wheel, but they are sitting there day in and day out, and then there is someone using the items their company created and thinking, "this is well done". And they are directing their energies in a way that everyone wants to direct their energies; to improve something, to make... well we all know that its nice when you have a quality tool in your hand.

And now they will be told to devote their energies to making something cheaper.

Maybe some people get off on the efficiency of that or something, but I don't. And that's why I said it's sad.

[Glenn Howard]

There is one bright spot here that I'll point out. While many of you make the valid point, that years ago, you could buy a tool on brand name reputation alone, and know that you were getting a quality tool. It was not uncommon for someone's entire power tool collection to be one brand (ex. PC, Milwaukee).

While repositioning and acquisitions seem to be watering down othewise good names, we do have something today that was not prevalent even 15-20 years ago. Today, you can search the web for online user reviews, pro reviews, visit forums, download owner's manuals, etc. Whatever the tool that you're in the market for, you can easily find plenty of information on the web to assist with your tool selections.

The difference might be that the all Porter Cable tool collection of 20 years ago gives way to a collection that might include a Makita cordless drill, a Milwaukee corded drill, a Bosch jig saw, Porter Cable router, etc. Today, it's much easier to take advantage of the experiences of others to build a collection of quality tools.

[Mike Keers]

You do make a valid point, and while I will still buy some tools on name and reputation, the PC routers, PC sanders (most of the older industrial stuff they still sell), anything Makita or Bosch, My tool collection is slowly changing from PC and Delta gray to a rainbow of tools due to attrition.

I too do plenty of research before making any decisions. I also consider service--not so much from the manufacturer (assuming an old stalwart company will stand behind their product 'forever'), but if the people I'm buying from have treated me well, or gone overboard to help. If suppliers treat me well, I will pay a bit more even to preserve a good working relationship.

That said, my old Delta (Taiwan) miter saw bought in the early 90's finally gave up the ghost a coupla months ago, and I've been shopping for a simple chop saw. I didn't even need the compound miter, or a slider. I only use the thing for convenience in whacking off long stuff to more manageable lengths, I can use a handsaw or Skilsaw just as well. I've got a RAS, but I usually keep it set up with a dado stack for tenoning. So I wasn't planning to spend more than maybe $225-250 as it's really more convenience than necessity for what I do, and it was a given it would be from offshore, and China most likely. I can accept that for what I want to pay, if the tool has reasonable quality and life expectancy.

I searched the net, I searched my magazines, I did about as much research as possible, and in the end, it turns out I really should be buying the DeWalt 713, successor just recently to the 703 (I think). Now after bad mouthing DW up the page a bit, I find myself in a quandary, no? :D I have reluctantly decided I'll probably spring for it, but I'm gonna try for The Deal. And I'm still stalling to see if opinions change as more get out there and used, the thing hasn't been out a month I don't think.

[Joel Goodman]

The saddest thing is that it's part of an overall pattern of American business -- make a worse product, sell it for less and then complain when the public rebels and the Japanese or Germans capture the market. And the worst part is that the worse product is usually made overseas anyway. No wonder the dollar is at an all time low with respect to most currencies. In the past PC was always a "made in USA" dependable quality brand -- I guess it time to buy any PC tool that I may need that's still "old school".

[Chris Kennedy]

It occurs to me that this is why HD has already yellow-tagged some of the PC items (the little belt sander being the first that pops to mind). I am now worried about getting accessories -- like sandpaper for that sander. Maybe I will have to hoard a bunch.

Sigh.

Chris

[Mike Keers]

I try to avoid the orange box, but I was in there a few months ago and they had all the PC sanders on sale. I thought it was odd as it was the industrial 'old school' stuff they were selling, not obsolete stock. I picked up a 1/4 sheet 342 sander for less than $30 and the 362VS 4x24 belt sander (the classic heavy monster) for $175 IIRC. Street price is usually around $280.

I didn't question the why of it, the stuff was going fast to the trades guys that knew what we were getting. I go in there about once a week now just to look at their 'bargain table'. They haven't had anything I need or want, but it's a steady stream of PC tools being disposed of...now I know why!

[Brian D Anderson]

It looks like the new PC line might be replacing BD Firestorm; Lowes was the exclusive distributor for Firestorm for a few years and today while browsing it looks like they have all of the FS stuff on clearance....

I just wanted to chime in with a completely unrelated point and say Chuck, your avatar rocks!

As far as PC . . . I don't have any PC tools. I assume their marketing people see the numbers, do their market analysis and determine what's selling and what's not . . . and more importantly why. Maybe they know what they're doing?

-Brian

[Chris Kennedy]

There is something to the line that PC will continue some existing lines of products. I just got back from HD, and they had only one PC sander, the 3 by 21 belt sander. It was in the new color scheme, but they also had one of the old ones. I gave them the once over, and it looks like the only difference was cosmetic.

So, there's a little hope.

Cheers,

Chris

[Butch Edwards]

You do make a valid point, and while I will still buy some tools on name and reputation, the PC routers, PC sanders (most of the older industrial stuff they still sell), anything Makita or Bosch, My tool collection is slowly changing from PC and Delta gray to a rainbow of tools due to attrition.

I too do plenty of research before making any decisions. I also consider service--not so much from the manufacturer (assuming an old stalwart company will stand behind their product 'forever'), but if the people I'm buying from have treated me well, or gone overboard to help. If suppliers treat me well, I will pay a bit more even to preserve a good working relationship.

That said, my old Delta (Taiwan) miter saw bought in the early 90's finally gave up the ghost a coupla months ago, and I've been shopping for a simple chop saw. I didn't even need the compound miter, or a slider. I only use the thing for convenience in whacking off long stuff to more manageable lengths, I can use a handsaw or Skilsaw just as well. I've got a RAS, but I usually keep it set up with a dado stack for tenoning. So I wasn't planning to spend more than maybe $225-250 as it's really more convenience than necessity for what I do, and it was a given it would be from offshore, and China most likely. I can accept that for what I want to pay, if the tool has reasonable quality and life expectancy.

I searched the net, I searched my magazines, I did about as much research as possible, and in the end, it turns out I really should be buying the DeWalt 713, successor just recently to the 703 (I think). Now after bad mouthing DW up the page a bit, I find myself in a quandary, no? :D I have reluctantly decided I'll probably spring for it, but I'm gonna try for The Deal. And I'm still stalling to see if opinions change as more get out there and used, the thing hasn't been out a month I don't think.

Brother Mike... you can get another RAS to do what you need, for waaaay less than 2 bills! and it could be an older Dewalt or Delta !!!;)

[Mike Keers]

Now why didn't I think of that?! :D You just dope slapped me! The RAS I have was free, and in very good shape, plus I sprung for the free Craftsman-Emerson guard upgrade kit--thanks to this board for that! You are quite right, I see them on CL for $75. And there's little else you can do with a chop saw, whereas the RAS is more versatile. I think one Snears is enough tho, an old Delta or DeWalt would certainly be more tool.

I love this place!:p

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Can a PC battery powered clamp be far off?

[Chuck Tringo]

I just wanted to chime in with a completely unrelated point and say Chuck, your avatar rocks!

-Brian


Thanks Brian, I finally got to see DT in May after 10 years, and THEY ROCKED :D

At the moment, the only PC I own is 1 router bit, so Im not too worried about this anyhoo...

[steve reeves]

PC tools have been a staple in my shop for decades and I have bought them based on 3 things. 1. they're made here and 2. the quality of their tools has always been very good. 3. most things that can go wrong with them are "user repairable"... changing brushes etc..

The only off shore tools that I've ever bought on a reputation basis are Makita tools. I also have several of those and have been well pleased with them.

Anything that I've seen in decades made by Black and Decker has been of poor quality and it's patently obvious that they're building tools to meet a "price point" and little else. Instead of ruggedness or precision, their goal is to make the tool attractive appearance wise and price wise.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but most of these tools you see in the box stores any longer are geared towards Joe or Jill homeowner who's going to pick something up to do one project with or as another poster stated drive a few dozen screws a year with...

Just look at the number of bench type table saws on the market for $100 or less! I've a neighbor who bragged about one he bought from sears on sale for $89 a couple years ago.... but now complains that anytime he tries to rip anything thicker than a fence slat the saw stalls and burns the wood...

Porter Cable was a solid and profitable company. The parent company was not interested in doing all the R&D (paying for it anyway) to bring new items to market as they're not "tool people" anyway. B&D bought these companies for the exact reason mentioned by a prior poster... "to harvest the brand"

Rest assured that Black and Decker will do exactly that. That is how they'll pay for these new aquisitions.. New tools bearing the quality "name" of these companies made to a manufacturing price point that will enable them to sell at a premium due to the "name" while production costs and quality are at a much smaller level.

Another analogy would be candy bars..... anyone notice that besides the price skyrocketing the bars themselves have gotten much smaller? Cereal makers had discovered that raising prices was costing them millions of dollars in sales so they just quietly reduced the net weight of the product...

Yet we complain about the price of any true quality product that comes around... and those companies usually struggle to survive because no one wants to "pay" for the quality that we all demand.

I've been guilty of that myself.... I've yet to buy a Festool product.... by all accounts, they're great products.... but I'm not paying 400 bucks for a hand sander...

One day I'll be on one of these boards raising cain because there are no decent hand sanders available! LOL

[Curt Harms]

It occurs to me that this is why HD has already yellow-tagged some of the PC items (the little belt sander being the first that pops to mind). I am now worried about getting accessories -- like sandpaper for that sander. Maybe I will have to hoard a bunch.

Sigh.

Chris

I bought a few from Industrial Abrasives in Reading, PA., less than $1 each. Brushes, drive belts and such could be another story. B&D has figured out that if they support existing machines, they might not be able to sell as many new machines. What they may not have figured out is that some purchasers won't buy from companies that don't support their existing machines. Hmmmm.....:rolleyes:.

Curt

[Jim Becker]

Steve, do consider that this is not a "new acquisition" for B&D...the deal went down several years ago. They are only now starting to move things around relative to positioning.

[Harley Reasons]

I just got back from HD, and they had only one PC sander, the 3 by 21 belt sander. It was in the new color scheme, but they also had one of the old ones.
Chris

Was that old one the display model or in a box. Either way, it has been reduced in price and should be on clearance. If not, then you can dicker them down on it. We sold our display model for $99 since it didn't have a book or case with it. When I get to price one for green tag clearance, I price them to move out of the door.

[Jesse Cloud]

Now here's an idea for B&D to make some $$ on that old PC line - why not a router than also makes coffee or a planer than will mow your lawn!:p

[Steve Clardy]

Now here's an idea for B&D to make some $$ on that old PC line - why not a router than also makes coffee or a planer than will mow your lawn!:p



ROFL!!!!!!!

[Chris Kennedy]

Was that old one the display model or in a box. Either way, it has been reduced in price and should be on clearance. If not, then you can dicker them down on it. We sold our display model for $99 since it didn't have a book or case with it. When I get to price one for green tag clearance, I price them to move out of the door.

I assume it was the display -- it was on the clearance table (no box or manual to be seen), but it was actually marked with the same price as the new one. Thought it was a little odd, but didn't think too much of it because I already have a belt sander.

I was also happy to see that Norton is now making the belts in the appropriate size. Prior to this, I have only seen PC brand belts that fit.

Cheers,

Chris

[Simon Dupay]

I don't trust ol' B&D one bit, they as greedy as they come they've already cheapened up PC by sending production to Mexico, no more "proudly made in the USA" stickers. To me PC was allways better then DeWalt.

[Chris Kennedy]

Thanks Brian, I finally got to see DT in May after 10 years, and THEY ROCKED :D

At the moment, the only PC I own is 1 router bit, so Im not too worried about this anyhoo...

Also off topic . . .

You lucky bastard. For some reason, every time they come within about a 50 mile radius, there is something that prevents me from going ("No dear, we aren't changing the wedding date.")

[Ron Bontz]

If any one is interested I did speak with a couple of B&D / Dewalt reps yesterday. They confirmed PC is going to be the Midline "Cordless" line of "construction" type tools. With Dewalt being the top for the construction line. They did stress Delta would remain as it has. When I questioned their logic with regard to the PC routers they said the woodworking tools would not change. I could not help but get the feeling it would all come down to profit margins. Lets face it. This is the USA where the all mighty dollar carries the most weight. It wasn't that long ago I traded my 9" Rockwell "motorized miter box" for a Dewalt DW705 and then DW708. That's my take on it anyway.:(