Do i REALLY need a table saw

[Thomas Marr]

In most shops, the table saw is the center of the shop. But lately, I’ve been looking at “rail systems” (e.g., Festool plunge saw, eurekazone, etc…). With a rail system, why do I need a table saw? It seems that ripping, making dadoes, rabbits, etc…can be easily and safely done with a rail system using a circular saw and router. Keep in mind, I’m focused on the hobbyist, not a production shop. What am I missing? Capacity (Makita has a 10 ¼ saw available now), Dust Collection (better for the TS maybe).

[Chuck Tringo]

There are those who argue that you don't, but i like having a table saw for some operations, particularly cutting small pieces. I have an EZ Smart and love it for panels, but prefer to do small pieces clamped to a sled on my TS. Also Panel systems are not as easy with repetitive cuts.

[Wade Lippman]

I have a Festool TS55 and a MFT. I know people do it, but I can't imagine using one for ripping. I even use my TS sometimes for crosscutting, despite having the MFT and a Kapex.

If I could have only one of the above it would definitely be a table saw.

[Brandon Shew]

In most shops, the table saw is the center of the shop. But lately, I’ve been looking at “rail systems” (e.g., Festool plunge saw, eurekazone, etc…). With a rail system, why do I need a table saw? It seems that ripping, making dadoes, rabbits, etc…can be easily and safely done with a rail system using a circular saw and router. Keep in mind, I’m focused on the hobbyist, not a production shop. What am I missing? Capacity (Makita has a 10 ¼ saw available now), Dust Collection (better for the TS maybe).

Do you need one? I suppose not, but...

I think that a table saw is more versatile. If you just have a router, a plunge saw, and a rail then you will have a hard time cutting short pieces and narrow pieces (say you want to cut a 1/2" x 1/2" x 1' board into a 1/4" x 1/2" x 1' piece...) Cross cutting, mitred and angle cuts are easier on a table saw as is making tenons. You can have a zero clearance insert on a table saw that makes for cleaner cuts. It would be a seroius PITA to cut a dado in a 1" wide piece of material using a guide rail and a router.

IMO, you would need a good router table and fence for it and a SCMS along with the rail and saw system to get by w/o a table saw. Besides, for the cost of a Festool plunge saw and a guide rail system, you're already in the price rang of a decent hybrid table saw. Add a decent router table w/ fence and SCMS and you're looking at a G1023 at least.

If you were a carpenter and needed portability for a job site and/or were primarily cutting sheet goods and the like for cabinetry, then you may be able to go that route, but anyone that wants to seriously build furniture should have a table saw.

[Larry Rasmussen]

Ok if you're me you do. I've got a festool '55, the smaller of the two circular saws. I have a shorter than standard guide and one a bit over 8'. Boy did I have to talk myself into that one! But it is nice to be able to cut plywood or rip an 8 footer without having to dink around a bunch. My small shop was built around having an over length bench with the vacuum hose suspended above so I can just cut when I need to without having to mess about too much. I rip my starter boards that need an accurate straight edge to register from. I believe the SCMS folks have a nice set up and would not presume to suggest one over the other but the guided rail has changed woodworking for me. More work finished, less drudgery.

Ok if you're not convinced I am a credentialed rail saw man you never will be. My advice is yes you need a table saw. Ripping is a pain on the Festool. It cuts well enough without much resistance and dust collection is better with festool than my little Bosch saw. Set up is not difficult but still you are wasting minutes with each piece, thats the pain. Mostly if I'm ripping some stock I might go through a few boards of different types. The repeatability of the fences on the market today is a dream come true, with so little effort. You must buy one. Oh you must. The little Bosch 4000 saw with an Accusquare fence tacked on aftermarket is fairly inexpensive and really convenient. Just set and rip. The smaller size is mostly not an issue with good board support coming and going.

Enjoy,
Larry - Seattle

[Peter Quadarella]

Another option for ripping is to cut on the bandsaw and then joint (don't rule out hand planes for this which can be very fun).

Table saws are very versatile and there is tons of information and jigs for them. However, there's nothing they do that you couldn't use other tools to do, in some cases with greater ease, in some cases with more difficulty. As a new woodworker, I didn't feel comfortable with a table saw; they felt a little dangerous to me (I had no experience), and they also take up a ton of space, so I didn't get one. Many people focus so much of their time on the table saw that they can do amazing things with them, and then maybe they can do without some other tool.

[Steve Nouis]

Yes, and get the best one you can afford, watch for a used cabinet saw. Steve

[John Bailey]

I don't have a table saw, and don't want one. There are so many different ways to do any job that most could find a way to work without a table saw. I use a band saw and homemade jigs for all my cuts. That's the way I like working.

That being said, many others feel much more comfortable with their table saw. Nothing wrong with that, and there are advantages and disadvantages either way. It will depend on which way you choose is the best for you.

John

[Chris Kennedy]

If time is an issue, I would suggest getting one. Being a hobbyist, I want to spend my time making things, not setting up and breaking down equipment. I don't have a lot of time to devote to my hobby as it is.

For the record, I have done both. Before having a TS, I did a lot with a circ saw and a guide rail, along with a CMS eventually. Ripping was just a PITA. Most of my early projects were rapidly designed to use dimensional lumber rather than have to rip things down. When I had a windfall, it took me about 30 seconds to decide to buy a good hybrid. I have never looked back. Even as I get more interested in hand tools, I know I will never be without my TS.

Cheers,

Chris

[mike holden]

No, you dont really *need* a tablesaw, a set of rip and crosscut handsaws along with a tenon and dovetail saw will do everything a tablesaw will do. Quieter, too!
Remember power tools are relatively new. All the furniture made (and houses!) before about the mid 1800's were done with hand tools.
But, I would not be a woodworker without them. Its a hobby for me, and the powered tools make the work more enjoyable.
This is the key of course, it is a hobby for us, and so, use what you wish.
Mike

[James Carmichael]

I did without one for some time, then finally refurbed an old Emerson/Craftsman on the cheap.

I find it is mostly a timesaver. Rip cuts that I used to do on the bandsaw are way faster and more accurate, I don't have to dress the edge (doubly so since investing in a WWII blade). Crosscuts that had to be taken to the mitre saw or by hand are much easier, especially with the Jessem gauge.

I don't break down sheet goods often enough to justify a rail system, and it doesn't take that long with a circular saw and straightedge to get them into pieces that are manageable on the TS. But, an EZ Smart may be in my future.

I love Makita tools, but seriously doubt a 10 1/4" handheld circular saw running a universal motor could equal the power of even a 1 1/2 hp contractor saw.

[Larry James]

Hobbyist here, and I have had a table saw since about 1970. The thought never occurred to me - "Do I REALLY need a table saw?"

Now that I think about it, YES.

Larry

[Brian Smith3]

The answer is it depends on what you want to make, and what you want to do. I also have tried to get rid of the TS for a rail system. I have an ez smart and a TS. IMHO if you are making furniture then you really need a TS unless you want to learn how to do things totally by hand (different forum altogether).

Also remember the world of woodworking is designed around the TS, so with a rail system you have to kind of reinvent a lot of the steps, and if you are following along with plans, this expands the complexity and time commitment to a project. That could be bad when you are just starting out, then again so could an accident with a TS.

I can go into the pros and cons of each if you want as I just evaluated getting rid of the TS. There's a lot to consider.

[Bob Noles]

but... but... if you don't have a table saw, what are you going to use for a workbench and keep all your junk on? :D

[Jerome Hanby]

Absolutely true. I scared myself last night, I actually moved enough junk to see my table saw and the shock...

but... but... if you don't have a table saw, what are you going to use for a workbench and keep all your junk on? :D

[John Thompson]

For 37 years I have not been without until last Saturday. From a circular screwed under-neath a sheet of 2 x 4 ply to cabinet saws. I will be without one until Aug. 23 so I just shut the shop down until then as the first step in my process is ripping down rough stock from my supplier.

Could I do it with a hand-saw.. sure. Could I rip 12' stock with a guide system.. I doubt it from a safety stand-point and would not attempt to do so as that could get a bit squirrely...

I'm waiting on the TS to start a coffe table that should have been started last week after finishing a chest before the saw was picked up. Just my view as "do you have to have" is not as important as "do I need one to make life simplier" in the shop.

Sarge..

[Prashun Patel]

If you're debating this at all, then go for the rail system and a circ saw. A good circular saw will ALWAYS be useful for breaking down panels and taking cutting power to the 'jobsite'. A quality rail system like Eurekazone's is also so versatile and powerful, if you ever decided you wanted a tablesaw in the future, you'd likely a) still want to keep yr EZ for certain operations, or b) sell it for (I bet) close to what you paid for it.

Plus, going 'rail' first will really educate you such that if u purchase a t-saw, you'll know what features are important to you, which will prevent u from buying a 'starter' saw only to have to sell it 5 years later.

[Matt Wolboldt]

In my case, I don't have enough room a table saw. Though I would like to have one, i'm using a guided circular saw and my bandsaw to get the job done.

[Bill Fleming]

Well it is all about priorities, space and cash.... years ago a table saw was a first machine purchase (still have it and seems to spent more and more time under stuff). If I were starting out I would do a festool saw/table/vac early in process and then bandsaw (I have a nice MM16) and jointer and planer (didn't would now do a good combo) - I have an old Delta Contractor saw with a Incra fence and Woodpecker router table and I probably use the Table Saw least but nice to have for some finish cut and cutting cabinet pieces to length - the Festool system is great for sheet goods and add a router and now do many things on the Festool table with guide. Band saw which I went without for way too many years is a pleasure for so many tasks - really should have gotten a good one long ago.

Good Luck - Bill

[Clifford Mescher]

In most shops, the table saw is the center of the shop. But lately, I’ve been looking at “rail systems” (e.g., Festool plunge saw, eurekazone, etc…). With a rail system, why do I need a table saw? It seems that ripping, making dadoes, rabbits, etc…can be easily and safely done with a rail system using a circular saw and router. Keep in mind, I’m focused on the hobbyist, not a production shop. What am I missing? Capacity (Makita has a 10 ¼ saw available now), Dust Collection (better for the TS maybe).
I would be lost without my trusty table saw. Clifford

[John Schreiber]

I haven't got a table saw, but I think my answer is that Yes, you do need a table saw. I've gotten by with a circular saw with jigs and guides and by using hand saws, but I've come to recognize is that at a table saw is an adjustable jig which repeatedly and predictably manages the contact between wood and a blade. I don't know of any other tool or system which does all the things a table saw can.

As soon as I can justify the cost for a quality cabinet saw with a splitter, that's what I intend to buy.

[Peter Quinn]

Do you need a table saw? No. People built beautiful things from wood long before the table saw was invented. Am I a fan of rail systems for solid wood construction? Not at all. I've seen videos, I've looked at festool and ez smart, and sure people use them to get it done and make beautiful things. But I don't want to work that way. I find the table saw much quicker to set up for rip or repeatable cross cuts. Sure, you can take a rail system to a high level with the right jigs, but a table saw IS basically a big jig/fixture already. THe TS is quick, accurate and SAFE when properly set up and operated by a well trained user.

This is my logic: If you are a hobbiest you are working wood in your SPARE time. Spare time is a scarce resource in my life. The table saw is much quicker on all counts, and I won't ever be convinced otherwise by the legion of rail system users. So a table saw helps make the most of your scarce spare time. Of course other resources may also be scarce, like space and money. If your space and money are relatively more scarce than your time, then a rail system may make sense for you. And for a sheet goods intensive approach in a small shop it may be a toss up.

Anecdote: (this really happened) At work today I set up and cut a 1/2" X
1 1/16" rabbit on the edge of a 1" X 2 1/2" style to accept an end panel on a fridge surround cabinet. Took about 5 minutes start to finish, two cuts for each rabbit, one on each style. Did it on the TS. Could I do it with a router and a rail system? Sure, in about 20 passes, but I'd probably still be at work at that pace.

Next question, do you NEED a car? I mean REALLY NEED a car? And do you have a car?

[Albert Wagner]

Keep all your fingers; Go with Eureka. For a hobbiest, there is no advantage to a tablesaw.

[Narayan Nayar]

Keep all your fingers; Go with Eureka. For a hobbiest, there is no advantage to a tablesaw.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement.

When I'm lucky, I have an hour or two a night in the shop. I'm not often that lucky, so it's usually just part of one day a weekend.

I prefer hand tools but I always keep in mind that as much as I like just messin' 'round with wood, my goal is to build stuff. My TS gives me a great advantage in terms of how my limited time in the shop is spent towards that goal. I also have a "rail system"--its advantage is it prevents me from breaking my back when I break down larger sheet or stock.

No, you don't need a TS. There are myriad ways to handle stock. But that's a long way from saying there's no advantage to a TS.

[Burt Waddell]

A few years ago, my cabinet shop had 3 unisaws in it and I used a carry-out saw for on-site work. Today, I am using only one unisaw and have moved most of my cutting except bulk ripping of hardwoods to guide systems.

Why? It is easier, more precise and much safer. I can rip a 1/4" piece and never get my hand near the blade.

A guide rail with a repeater attached or mounted on a power bench along with a good fence system, can deliver results equal to any table saw. Okay, so you can't give up your table saw fence. You don't have to. I have unifences mounted on two power benches. I set the size of the cut just like you do on your table saw. The big difference is that at the end of the day, I feel a lot better - it is much easier to push a saw down a rail than it is to push a board thru a a table saw.

Now some of you say that you have tried home made rails or those cheaper ones from the borg. Unless, you've experienced a guide rail system that the saw rides on the rail, you haven't used a guide rail system. They are night and day.

I Originally bought a guide rail to do plywood with. Now it is taking over the shop. It is the best way I've found to do dado's and flutes. (yes there are nice router setups for guide rails too.)

As for someone's comments about the big Makita, I often use the 10 1/4" makita on my EZ rails. It glides across the rails very smoothly. Since this is on the PBB, I don't have to pickup the saw so the weight of the saw isn't an issue.

I see no reason why a home shop couldn't work well with only the guide system. As soon as I can figure out how to make my stockfeeder work with a guide rail, my unisaw is in mortal danger.

My guess is that a lot of you are just like I was when I first started reading about the guide rails and think this is to good to be true. It took a while for me to see the light but If I could only have one, I'd take the EZ rail system and be happy with it.

Burt

[Dino Makropoulos]

Hi Guys.
I will not try to turn this thread into an anti-tablesaw thread.

The last tablesaw that I owned and used was an EU slider.
It was the center of my woodworking universe...until I made a simple mistake ( dust in the floor and I lost my balance while pushing the sliding table)
Not a fault of my machine but I almost cut my self in half.
Not by the blade but from a 5x10 3/4" melamine board.
I was a trained operator and I used gang rip saws with 12 blades and 120 HP motors for few years before.

I like to agree with Peter's post :
THe TS is quick, accurate and SAFE when properly set up and operated by a well trained user.

...and add few pointers.


Many well trained operators with very expensive and properly set up TS can very easily get into an accident.
The nature of the tool demends perfection on every move.
A hidden knot on a piece of wood, a void that is not visable, and a million other things can go wrong and they do go wrong every day...even with the best trained users.

Why? Because we're working against the forces.
Can we control the negative forces? spinning blades, enviroment, moving wood, sawdust on the floor?:o hidden knots, voids, wifes,:rolleyes:
our balance, stength, emotions...

I think we can. But not all of them at the same and all the time.

To me, working with the tablesaw is a secret dance of perfection and luck.

[Burt Waddell]

Do you need a table saw? No. People built beautiful things from wood long before the table saw was invented. Am I a fan of rail systems for solid wood construction? Not at all. I've seen videos, I've looked at festool and ez smart, and sure people use them to get it done and make beautiful things. But I don't want to work that way. I find the table saw much quicker to set up for rip or repeatable cross cuts. Sure, you can take a rail system to a high level with the right jigs, but a table saw IS basically a big jig/fixture already. THe TS is quick, accurate and SAFE when properly set up and operated by a well trained user.

This is my logic: If you are a hobbiest you are working wood in your SPARE time. Spare time is a scarce resource in my life. The table saw is much quicker on all counts, and I won't ever be convinced otherwise by the legion of rail system users. So a table saw helps make the most of your scarce spare time. Of course other resources may also be scarce, like space and money. If your space and money are relatively more scarce than your time, then a rail system may make sense for you. And for a sheet goods intensive approach in a small shop it may be a toss up.

Anecdote: (this really happened) At work today I set up and cut a 1/2" X
1 1/16" rabbit on the edge of a 1" X 2 1/2" style to accept an end panel on a fridge surround cabinet. Took about 5 minutes start to finish, two cuts for each rabbit, one on each style. Did it on the TS. Could I do it with a router and a rail system? Sure, in about 20 passes, but I'd probably still be at work at that pace.

Next question, do you NEED a car? I mean REALLY NEED a car? And do you have a car?

Peter,

One thing that I find interesting about your post. You said that you had seen the videos on the Festool and EZ Systems. If you said that you had experience with either system, I missed that. I have no doubt that you can do this much quicker on the table saw. How many years have you used the table saw? How long have you used the rail systems.

I use the EZ system and have often stated that is took a while for me to "think EZ". At this point, the Rail system is my primary tool. It didn't happen over night. It took time for me to build a profiency that is near equal to my abilities with a table saw.

What bothers me about a post like yours, is that you have not used the rail system but you are sure that the table saw is superior.


Burt

[Neal Clayton]

i have nothing against the skilsaw guide systems, if not for the price i'd have one to square edges on my molding stock even.

but nothing is gonna give you the precision to cut smaller pieces quickly other than a table saw.

[Peter Quinn]

Call me the devil's advocate, call me stupid, I just can't help stirring the hornets nest. The fervor with which many approach the ez rail system borders on a religion, the discussion of which is prohibited here so I wont touch it. Can we agree to disagree?

I have been using a TS since I was 15, I'm thirty eight now, I work in a professional cabinet and millwork shop, I have a small shop of my own for hobby and side work. I can count to ten with my shoes on. I have tried the festool set up with a 55 saw at a festool demo. Works great...uh..for many things...but not for every thing. I have not used the ez rail system. Looks like a very good guide rail system. I looked into both for panel production and may get one next year, but I will not be selling my TS. Is there a way to test drive a guide rail system for free for a month to evaluate it, or can an experienced wood worker see one demo'd, understand its functions, imagine its capabilities and short comings and draw conclusions? I have used a guided circular saw on a shop made rail with a few gauge blocks (total cost minus saw, under $2.79!) to good effect so I am not without some basis for comparison or understanding the concept.

I am curious that not a single guide rail user has offered an explanation of how to cut the rabbit in my first scenario using a guide rail. Its not that I don't know how to do it with out the TS, I'd just like to see some one consider how much longer it take with out one. I agree that guide rails have many strengths in a small shop, I think I made that opinion clear in my first post. I am interested in addressing the OP's question "DO I NEED A TS" and discussing a guide rails potential short comings as an alternative. I have yet to see the perfect tool, and if you are afraid to discuss a tools weaknesses I worry for you.

Scenario 2: (Again, a very real wood shop scenario which I have quickly accomplished this week using a TS) : You are making 1/4" X 3/4" strips for applied bead molding. You are making 400LF of it. You enjoy making bead molding but not so much that you want to spend the rest of your life at it. You rip it 1/16" over to leave room for planning/sanding. Must be a very consistent thickness to miter properly. Production shop? No, thats enough for one small kitchen or so. How does a guide rail help with this assuming you would like to maximize your stock and minimize your production time so you can get on to something less tedious. Any guide rail users want to explain to the op how to quickly and accurately tackle scenario 1 and 2 with a guide rail? Perhaps use an integral bead with a jack miter? But how do you cut jack miters with a guide rail? Router and a jig, clean up with chisels? What, no guide rail?

Dino, I have watched videos of your system with great curiosity, nice option for many wood workers. Very versatile. But still, with only respect, if the problem is saw dust on the floor I recommend a good pair of anti skid shoes, which I happen to wear daily, and a broom, regardless of what tool you are using, powered or not. I for one do not work in a shop with a polished concrete floor and further do not work standing in a pile of saw dust, ever. Anti skid mats work wonders as well.

Dino makes a very salient point perhaps too strongly for my comfort: A TS demands very good technique. It is an unforgiving master. Some level of perfection only obtained by an elevated few? Hardly, even I can do it! The learning curve is steep for some, so if you get one proceed with caution, take classes, learn from a mentor. Do not rely on pictures in books or internet discussions, they are a helpful addition to your eduction but not a substitute for training. I must insist that tragedy is not a foregone conclusion for TS users.

So in conclusion and as a review of my first post, you do not need a TS, a guide rail and router table is a very capable and compact system, there are MANY methods of work, and I would not trade my TS for a guide rail in this life time or the next.

[Burt Waddell]

Call me the devil's advocate, call me stupid, I just can't help stirring the hornets nest. The fervor with which many approach the ez rail system borders on a religion, the discussion of which is prohibited here so I wont touch it. Can we agree to disagree?

.

Peter,

Sometimes, We have no choice but to agree to disagree. With the experience level you have with Guide rails, My opinion would have been at least as strong as yours. It took me about 2 years from the first time I saw the EZ system to get involved with it.

Since you gave me a bit of your experinece level, I'll do the same for you. During my Air FOrce career and first couple years of retirement, I was an avid hobby woodworker. For about the last 17 years I have owned and operated my own woodworking shop. As I stated in another post I still have a table saw with stock feeder for Bulk ripping of hardwood.

As for your experience today:

Anecdote: (this really happened) At work today I set up and cut a 1/2" X
1 1/16" rabbit on the edge of a 1" X 2 1/2" style to accept an end panel on a fridge surround cabinet. Took about 5 minutes start to finish, two cuts for each rabbit, one on each style. Did it on the TS. Could I do it with a router and a rail system? Sure, in about 20 passes, but I'd probably still be at work at that pace.


I can do the same thing with the same number of cuts with a rail and a circular saw.

Peter, Keep smiling!!!

Burt

[Dino Makropoulos]

Call me the devil's advocate,

I thought the Devil was me.:rolleyes:

Is there a way to test drive a guide rail system for free for a month to evaluate it, or can an experienced wood worker see one demo'd, understand its functions, imagine its capabilities and short comings and draw conclusions?

No problem. As long as you post pictures and results here.:cool:

I am curious that not a single guide rail user has offered an explanation of how to cut the rabbit in my first scenario using a guide rail.

Many ways but I need to get the OK from the forum in order to post video links.


I have yet to see the perfect tool, and if you are afraid to discuss a tools weaknesses I worry for you.

Stop over the ez forum and ask the same questions.:cool:

Scenario 2: (Again, a very real wood shop scenario which I have quickly accomplished this week using a TS) : You are making 1/4" X 3/4" strips for applied bead molding. You are making 400LF of it. You enjoy making bead molding but not so much that you want to spend the rest of your life at it. You rip it 1/16" over to leave room for planning/sanding. Must be a very consistent thickness to miter properly. Production shop? No, thats enough for one small kitchen or so. How does a guide rail help with this assuming you would like to maximize your stock and minimize your production time so you can get on to something less tedious. Any guide rail users want to explain to the op how to quickly and accurately tackle scenario 1 and 2 with a guide rail? Perhaps use an integral bead with a jack miter? But how do you cut jack miters with a guide rail? Router and a jig, clean up with chisels? What, no guide rail?

Search jack miters at the ez forum.:cool:
Repeaters for your ripping and tunnel routing for the bead.

Dino, I have watched videos of your system with great curiosity, nice option for many wood workers. Very versatile. But still, with only respect, if the problem is saw dust on the floor I recommend a good pair of anti skid shoes, which I happen to wear daily, and a broom, regardless of what tool you are using, powered or not. I for one do not work in a shop with a polished concrete floor and further do not work standing in a pile of saw dust, ever. Anti skid mats work wonders as well.

If I knew ... I was wrong and I take all the blame.
I don't think was right to become two Dino's
because I made a small mistake.:o


Dino makes a very salient point perhaps too strongly for my comfort: A TS demands very good technique. It is an unforgiving master. Some level of perfection only obtained by an elevated few? Hardly, even I can do it! The learning curve is steep for some, so if you get one proceed with caution, take classes, learn from a mentor. Do not rely on pictures in books or internet discussions, they are a helpful addition to your eduction but not a substitute for training. I must insist that tragedy is not a foregone conclusion for TS users.

The Devil's advocate? I will save your post...Devil.:D

So in conclusion and as a review of my first post, you do not need a TS, a guide rail and router table is a very capable and compact system, there are MANY methods of work, and I would not trade my TS for a guide rail in this life time or the next.

I think you will after this:.:rolleyes:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=88662

I like the fact that you bring the facts into this thread.

[Norman Pyles]

Yes, you probably need a table saw. If you want to use your circular saw, just make your own guide out of some plywood.

[William OConnell]

In most shops, the table saw is the center of the shop. But lately, I’ve been looking at “rail systems” (e.g., Festool plunge saw, eurekazone, etc…). With a rail system, why do I need a table saw? It seems that ripping, making dadoes, rabbits, etc…can be easily and safely done with a rail system using a circular saw and router. Keep in mind, I’m focused on the hobbyist, not a production shop. What am I missing? Capacity (Makita has a 10 ¼ saw available now), Dust Collection (better for the TS maybe).

I own a Eureka guide rail system, and a festool guide rail system, and 2 tablesaws. I guess I'm one of the few who can say that. As oddly, apparently, i'm a guy who uses them all. For diffent methods of work.
Do you NEED a tablesaw? No. Is it a wonderful thing have a 1949 unisaw with an incra fence and a router table extension wing? YUP
Do I use the tablesaw alot? yup
Do I have 4 employees that go to the tablesaw to do ripping, fluting, dadoing ,plowing ,rabbiting, mitering, chamfering, as there choice of a method of work when those other tools are available to them? yup
Do I like the guided rail systems ? yup
Will I get in trouble here if I say I like dinos better than the other because its hardier, beefier product to me? I don't know
Its a tough one for me to call because I do this for a living and have a rough time putting my hobbiest hat on.
I can tell you the smart table is a wonderful thing for a guided rail system. Simply ingenious really.
I say buy both
One poster in this thread said buy a circular saw and rip some pywood to make your own guided rail. The truth is thats all you really NEED. However there are manufacturers out there who have taken a guided rail and tweaked it and made it much more versatile instrument to facilitate both speed and repeatble accuracy. Let alone interchangeable tools such as saws and routers.
NEED hmm I know a guy that does hardwood floor inlays freehand with only a circular saw and chisel. I always thought he NEEDED a router he thinks not

[Norman Pyles]

I think you will after this:.:rolleyes:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=88662

I like the fact that you bring the facts into this thread.

Dino, I was really respecting the fact that you were not linking your company into this post. Until this link to your forum. The one thing I like about SMC is I don't have to put up with vendors trying to sell me somthing. I'm sure if the OP wanted to come to your forum he could, but I wish you would keep the sales pitch there, and not here.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino, I was really respecting the fact that you were not linking your company into this post. Until this link to your forum. The one thing I like about SMC is I don't have to put up with vendors trying to sell me somthing. I'm sure if the OP wanted to come to your forum he could, but I wish you would keep the sales pitch there, and not here.

Norman.
This tool ( at the link ) is not for sale or of any interest to the original poster.
I thought it was a good link to show what the system can do.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

Do i REALLY need a table saw
Yes and no. (how's that for a "weenie response" ?:D)
I tired to get around not having a cast iron top table saw and found that the disadvantages outweighed the advantages.

Guided rail systems (IMHO) simply compliment a table saw.
Often they do things better, more often than not, they are more time consuming to setup. Some times, they simply can't do what needs to be done.

Speaking only for myself, and from my perspective of what I do and build in the shop - and what my future plans are - I have a need for both.

I went the TS route first, and will eventully get a guided rail system down the road.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Yes...try it your way for a few days and I'll just bet you will have one in there soon. The TS is the main fixture in any shop for a reason. There's no set up involved past moving the fence and blade to make 90% of all cuts. To do the same with the rail system takes much more time to accomplish.

If you are the guy going 40 in the left lane then maybe you don't need one...for me I couldn't live without mine.

[Billy Chambless]

Hello,

Yes and no. (how's that for a "weenie response" ?:D)

It's the best response yet (in my oh-so-humble opinion.)

What's great about this kind of question is that there is no absolute, correct-for-everyone answer, yet 3/4 of the respondents treat it as if it were. (remember the awesome "tablesaw or bandsaw?" threads a while back?) I don't see how there can be a meaningful answer to this kind of question without asking a few more questions:

What kind of work is being done?
What kind of materials are being used?
How big is the shop?
How big is the budget?
What's the skill level?

... and probably a few more that I'm missing.

Of course, if we change the question to "Can one build furniture without a tablesaw?" or "Is a tablesaw an incredibly useful piece of equipment?", it's easier to answer.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

It's the best response yet (in my oh-so-humble opinion.)

What's great about this kind of question is that there is no absolute, correct-for-everyone answer, yet 3/4 of the respondents treat it as if it were. (remember the awesome "tablesaw or bandsaw?" threads a while back?) I don't see how there can be a meaningful answer to this kind of question without asking a few more questions:

What kind of work is being done?
What kind of materials are being used?
How big is the shop?
How big is the budget?
What's the skill level?

... and probably a few more that I'm missing.

Of course, if we change the question to "Can one build furniture without a tablesaw?" or "Is a tablesaw an incredibly useful piece of equipment?", it's easier to answer.

True, but at the same time you could say that about ANY question in life. 3/4 of us think it's essential and we answered his question the best we know how. No one can MAKE him buy one, we're just stating our opinion cause we were asked and I see nothing wrong with any answer he gets in this thread.

[Dale Sudhoff]

Do you need one? I suppose not, but...

I think that a table saw is more versatile. If you just have a router, a plunge saw, and a rail then you will have a hard time cutting short pieces and narrow pieces (say you want to cut a 1/2" x 1/2" x 1' board into a 1/4" x 1/2" x 1' piece...) Cross cutting, mitred and angle cuts are easier on a table saw as is making tenons. You can have a zero clearance insert on a table saw that makes for cleaner cuts. It would be a seroius PITA to cut a dado in a 1" wide piece of material using a guide rail and a router.

IMO, you would need a good router table and fence for it and a SCMS along with the rail and saw system to get by w/o a table saw. Besides, for the cost of a Festool plunge saw and a guide rail system, you're already in the price rang of a decent hybrid table saw. Add a decent router table w/ fence and SCMS and you're looking at a G1023 at least.

If you were a carpenter and needed portability for a job site and/or were primarily cutting sheet goods and the like for cabinetry, then you may be able to go that route, but anyone that wants to seriously build furniture should have a table saw.


As far as taking a 1/2" square by 1' piece and ripping it to a 1/4" by 1' not a problem using my EZ bridge. Try it sometime. You don't have to worry about getting your fingers close to the blade.

Dale

[Thomas Marr]

Guys, I'm the OP. All this discussion reminded me of something I had long forgotten...I may already have an EZ Smart. I went out to my packed garage, started digging, and yep, there it was. I dug it out and took a pic (iphone quality). I remember this being a spontaneous purchase several years ago. I vaguely remember the need to attach and align a plate to the bottom of my circular saw, which I didn't want to do at the time because I was building a deck. So I put the EZ Smart in the garage and promptly forgot about it due to work and other issues.

I also have a cheap TS that I bought to use as a portable saw (BT3000). I set this up for the first time last week to rip some thin strips to build out my window jams (due to a contractor mistake). The TS scares me (I've used them many times in the past with the same reaction)...this is why I'd like to find an alternative for as many applications as possible. However, the DC on a circular saw rail system is terrible...unless it's the Festool plunge saw of course. I have bad allergy's and DC is very important to me.

About the question of "what do you really want to build?" This is a good and valid question that I see many times, but I hate it. Here's why. When I was in high school, I remember the guidance counselor asking "What do you want to be when you grow up.". My answer, "How the heck do I know until I grow up and try some things." It's like asking, "Do you the Icelandic Kjotsupa?". Well, I don't know unless I try it do I? How else could I make the decision..."Hmm, I like Iceland because they have pretty girls, ego, I would like Icelandic soups like Kjotsupa too?" I may like the idea of building furniture. I do like nice furniture. However, if it takes me 6 months to build a chair, then I probably won't like it so much once I've tried it. Then again, maybe I will, because it's not the destination that's important, it's the journey. I'm not saying this isn't good advice. I'm saying without the benefit of experience on the user's part, it's may be wasted advice.

Now that the rant is over, back to the main topic. I should probably set up the EZ Smart and see if I like the overall principle (taking my advice from above). ;) I'm still worried about DC but I can address that later. I know I'll need to order some more "smart stuff" to give it a real test. So I guess that's the next step.

[Burt Waddell]

Reading and participating in this thread has shown me just how little most people understand the rail systems.

Those who are saying that a table saw is an absolute must are primarily those who have never used a guide rail in their lives. Others are those who own a guide rail system and have never taken the time to learn how to use it. It took me an extended period of time to build proficiency with a rail system. Even at this point, I think that I am more proficient with a table saw.

I wonder what the answer would be from a group of people who are totally proficient with both systems.

As I said before, most tasks are easier, quicker and more precise with a rail system.

All of the challanges presented in this thread can be accomplished with a rail system and many of them can be done quicker and easier with the rails.

I'm not trying to start a debate. I just want people to understand there is a safer, easier way to do woodworking.

Burt

[glenn bradley]

I would read this: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=2761

[William OConnell]

Reading and participating in this thread has shown me just how little most people understand the rail systems.

Those who are saying that a table saw is an absolute must are primarily those who have never used a guide rail in their lives. Others are those who own a guide rail system and have never taken the time to learn how to use it. It took me an extended period of time to build proficiency with a rail system. Even at this point, I think that I am more proficient with a table saw.

I wonder what the answer would be from a group of people who are totally proficient with both systems.

As I said before, most tasks are easier, quicker and more precise with a rail system.

All of the challanges presented in this thread can be accomplished with a rail system and many of them can be done quicker and easier with the rails.

I'm not trying to start a debate. I just want people to understand there is a safer, easier way to do woodworking.

Burt

You can count me in as one who disagrees with you respectfully. Especially the statement "Easier, quicker and more precise" No way is that true. I'm sorry it doesn't sound like an objective point of view
Do I consider myself the best carpenter in the world? Absolutely not. But Ive owned guided rails in one form or another for alot of years including the 2 most prevalent ones on the market today. I'm pretty proficient with them. So are the guys that work for me. We still use the tablesaw mostly.
As far as the OP he should tune up his rail system and see what works best for him

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Just do what you please.
After all it's a hobby. It is you having a good time.

[Clifford Mescher]

Just do what you please.
After all it's a hobby. It is you having a good time.
I agree Cliff. Having fun and accomplishing things are more important then people with agenda's. Clifford

[eric auer]

Just do what you please.
After all it's a hobby. It is you having a good time.


+1

There are so many circumstances that change what is useful for whomever, everyone does what works for them.

And to call the ppl that advocate one system "Religious" or whatever is petty at best, go read something else if your ego cant handle spirited discussions.

Being condescending does no one any favors.

:D

Eric

[Glenn Clabo]

Okay...enough...let's move on.