PM vs. Grizz 15" Helical planers

[Jameel Abraham]

Here's some tough questions that I'm hoping someone can answer.

The two models are G1021X2 and the PM 15HH. Both have helical heads. The Grizz is $1541, the PM $2200.

Here are the differences that matter.

Cutterhead:

Grizzly head: 4 spirals, 68 15mmx2.5mm German inserts, Head made in Tai/Chi

PM head: 6 spiral, 98 15mmx2.5mm inserts made in the US.

Warranty:

Grizz: 1 year

PM: 5 years

So it boils down to the cutterhead quality and performance, and overall quality.

Questions:

Anybody run both of these machines, and was able to compare the cut quality between the two?

The Grizzly and Powermatic are probably both made in the same factory, does anybody have any idea of the possible quality difference between the two? I know the PM has historically been the quality machine, but are the PM mahines from Taiwan really made any differently than the Grizzly's? I'm assuming the PM has better quality control with which to back up their 5 year warranty. Also, since the Grizz head is 30% less cutterhead than the Byrd, then by rights the price different between the two should be about $400 instead of $600. Of course this figure is based on the cutterhead alone, not the difference in warranty.

One other difference is the mobile base. The Grizz does not have the casters, so tack on another $100+ for a mobile base. Now the price difference goes down to less than $300.

[Abe Hachmann]

My vote would definitly be for the powermatic. I cannot speak about the diferences in helical heads as I have a model 209 with straight knives. I have had a couple of issues with the powematic and the warranty and tech support are great. The starting capacitor went out about a year after I purchased it. In the process of removing the motor I messed up the plastic switch and they sent me both Items for free. My experiences with grizzly tools have been sub par. Although, their customer service is okay. The built in mobile base is much better than any aftermarket one as well. I really wish I had opted for the helical head, but the budget at the time didn't really allow for it.

[John Hedges]

I have had the 15HH for almost a year now and have no complaints. It's been a great machine. I have shy'd away from Grizzly after a less than satisfactory experience with their 8" jointer, so I cannot comment on the grizzly machine. If you shop around you should be able to find the 15HH for less than the $2200 retail price.

As far as them being made in the same factory I don't know about that. I think the PM 5 yr warranty vs. the Grizzly 1 yr says it all.

[Shawn Walker]

. I think the PM 5 yr warranty vs. the Grizzly 1 yr says it all.[/quote]
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It could mean you are paying up front for more warranty.

[Tony Bilello]

Just because 2 different companies have machines made in the same factory means absolutely nothing. Never did. The factory makes equipment to the clients standards and specs. Doesnt matter whether we are talking machines, cars, boats or refrigerators.
The client specifies the gage of steel, whether gears are steel, iron, nylon or plastic or whatever.

Tony B

[Frank Martin]

The significantly higher number of carbide inserts to me is a big plus. In addition 5 yr warranty makes it worth it.

I am saying this as a Grizzly 12" combo machine with spiral head owner. It is a nice machine and functions just fine.

[Rick Fisher]

They are not made in the same factory. The PM is made in Taiwan and the Grizzly is made in China.

The Chinese factories manufacture Tiawanese product for better pricing. Its not unlike the Tiawanese beating US plants.

That 15" planer is probably the most popular cast planer made. There are many, many factories building that style of machine. They offer 2hp or 3hp motors.

IMO. And Grizzly could disagree, Powermatic, General and Oliver type companies use the more expensive factories in Taiwan. (geetech, trupro, Ferjoth).

Grizzly on the other hand is a huge player. They have huge buying power and can dictate to a Chinese factory what standards are to be set.

I would be comfortable owning either machine.

[Jameel Abraham]

Thanks everybody. You're helping me narrow it down. But the battle isnt over yet!

[Rick Fisher]

If money is tight and you really need it. Buy the Griz..
If its a machine you have always wanted and plan on owning forever. A real source of pride in your shop, or a gift to yourself.. Well.. Gold..

[Jerry White]

They are not made in the same factory. The PM is made in Taiwan and the Grizzly is made in China.

Rick, have you actually seen the Grizzly 1021? Mine was manufactured in Taiwan.

Like most of us, I have not owned both planers, but I have used the Powermatic 15 in addition to to Grizzly 1021. I would rate them both as very well made machines....probably about equal in construction and performance.

Edit: My apologies, Rick. I have the 1021Z (last years model). The current 1021X2 is listed on the Grizzly website as manufactured in China. Moral.....check facts before posting.

[Kevin Groenke]

We've had a PM 209HH for about a year. Though the machine does the job it is designed to do, I have been underwhelmed by some aspects of the design, features and build quality.

initial impressions:
http://sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=561310&postcount=1

I've still not seen conclusive data on the difference between the Byrd and Grizzly helical heads. The Byrd's gives a true shearing cut while the Grizzly does not (maybe). I seem to recall some reporting that the Grizzly leaves less scalloping as the inserts are straight-edged while the Byrds are radiused slightly. I like that the Byrd in our PM handles figure, interlocked and difficult grain exceptionally. Of course the exponential reduction in noise is a godsend.

Do not give the PM too many points for the casters. If it's same as the 209, (as it appears to be) they're fixed 1-1/2" x 3" wheels with bolts w/knobs screwing onto them serving as brakes. This works ok if you want to move the planer in a straight line, but if you want to turn, you're doing to have to slide the wheels "against their grain."

Have you considered the G0453Z 15" w/ helical head and built in "dis-engagable" swiveling caster? Or moving up to the G0454Z 20" w/helical head for the same $ as the PM? I really don't see much difference between these and Grizzly's "Extreme" series.

Not an easy decision, I don't think you'll regret buying either. Just don't expect European or old American quality, that costs a lot more.

-kg

Upon closer inspection a difference between the two Grizzlys may be the the type of spiral head. The 1021 looks like a Byrd head, while the 4053 looks like the Grizzly head.

[Shiraz Balolia]

People should not speculate without knowledge of the factories. The G1021 and G1021X2 are made by the same Taiwanese company. The G1021X2 production was shifted to the Taiwan company's wholly owned plant in China. If you search long enough on SMC you will find other information I have posted about the fact that the owner spends about half his time at the China factory and half his time at the Taiwan factory each month! The cutterheads are made in Taiwan and shipped to their China branch for installation under Taiwanese manangers' supervison. We also send our Taiwanese inspectors there to oversee QC.

There are plenty of G0121X2 owners out there. Perhaps someone with actual knowledge of their machine will post. As far as the Byrd versus the Grizzly cutterhead are concerned, that subject has been beat to death as well. Please do a search. Personally, I have access to both and use the Grizzly cutterheads (Jointer and Planer) on my highly figured guitar woods and would not switch even if someone gave me free Byrd cutterheads and installations. Not that the Byrds are bad, but the Grizzly cutterheads are fantastic and do not leave scallops on my prized woods - so why should I change.

[John Hedges]

People should not speculate without knowledge of the factories. The G1021 and G1021X2 are made by the same Taiwanese company. The G1021X2 production was shifted to the Taiwan company's wholly owned plant in China.

Sorry if I'm not understanding this correctly but the G1021x2 is made in China as you yourself stated above. So I am unclear on what the previous poster speculated about. It may be a Taiwanese company but they are built in China.:rolleyes:

[Shawn Walker]

People should not speculate without knowledge of the factories. The G1021 and G1021X2 are made by the same Taiwanese company. The G1021X2 production was shifted to the Taiwan company's wholly owned plant in China. If you search long enough on SMC you will find other information I have posted about the fact that the owner spends about half his time at the China factory and half his time at the Taiwan factory each month! The cutterheads are made in Taiwan and shipped to their China branch for installation under Taiwanese manangers' supervison. We also send our Taiwanese inspectors there to oversee QC.

There are plenty of G0121X2 owners out there. Perhaps someone with actual knowledge of their machine will post. As far as the Byrd versus the Grizzly cutterhead are concerned, that subject has been beat to death as well. Please do a search. Personally, I have access to both and use the Grizzly cutterheads (Jointer and Planer) on my highly figured guitar woods and would not switch even if someone gave me free Byrd cutterheads and installations. Not that the Byrds are bad, but the Grizzly cutterheads are fantastic and do not leave scallops on my prized woods - so why should I change.

Your input is appreciated... Now if I could just decide which one of your Jointers I want... I am leaning toward the GO490X, but it's the choices of Grizzly models available if I spend more that have me scratching my head. :confused:

[Jameel Abraham]

Kevin,

Great info, especially your review of the 20". Of course without seeing the guts of either machine, it's really a crap shoot either way (not considering the cutterhead). One thing I really like about my Dewalt 735 is the depth of cut indicator, not the lens and scale on the right, but the spring indicator at the front. I'll miss that, but maybe a Wixey will solve it. I won't be moving the planer much if it all, so the mobile base doesn't have to be perfect, just functional. The Grizzly has no mobile base at all, so I'd have to tack on money for that. This isn't getting easier...

Shiraz,
Thanks for the great info. I've read most of your posts about the cutterheads here. I assume you're referring to all the different types of Grizzly heads? Because the one on the 1021x2 looks like a Byrd, and the others look very different. Could you clarify? Also, aside from the quality of cut which you are obviously satisfied with, what's your experience with the longevity of the Grizzly head vs. Byrd? The Byrd has 30 more inserts and two more spirals. This has to have some effect.

[John Hedges]

Also, aside from the quality of cut which you are obviously satisfied with, what's your experience with the longevity of the Grizzly head vs. Byrd? The Byrd has 30 more inserts and two more spirals. This has to have some effect.

Kinda like askin the owner of a McDonalds what he thinks of the taste of a Big Mac compared to a Whopper :D. Just kidding

I think they both will last the hobbiest for a long time. I know I have been using mine (byrd head) for almost a year and it isn't even close to dulling.

I am not sure where you got the 2.5mm figure for the grizzly cutters, and I am not sure if it makes a differencem but the Byrd cutters are thicker knives (2.5mm for the byrd and 2mm for the grizzly). At least that is what it states for the replacement inserts on the grizzly page for the 1021x2

[Shiraz Balolia]

Kevin,
Shiraz,
Thanks for the great info. I've read most of your posts about the cutterheads here. I assume you're referring to all the different types of Grizzly heads? Because the one on the 1021x2 looks like a Byrd, and the others look very different. Could you clarify? Also, aside from the quality of cut which you are obviously satisfied with, what's your experience with the longevity of the Grizzly head vs. Byrd? The Byrd has 30 more inserts and two more spirals. This has to have some effect.

Jameel - I was referring to a direct comparison to the Byrd. I have used both of them (Grizzly "straight" and the Byrd) side by side and have not been able to tell the difference. We sell Byrds and they are good cutterheads.

I have the Grizzly spiral cutterheads with the straight blades on my 12" jointer and my 20" planer. If you ever want to test a cutterhead, plane heavily quilted pillow maple and/or heavy curly maple, specially western maple that is a little softer. The "pillows" on the quilted maple are a very good test because you could have opposing grains in the same cut, and that's when tearout occurs.

There are a lot of theories out there about the shear angle being better and all that, but in practice the fewer rows of cutters on the Grizzly heads don't seem to show any difference. One of the things that we do is measure the height of every carbide insert on the cutterheads before they are delivered to the factories for installation on the machines. There is a special jig with measuring gages and every insert is measured. Imagine the tediousness of that job! If any insert is higher or lower than others, they are marked and the cutterhead sent back to the factory. I believe that we are the only company that does that.

The woodworking I do is mostly with exotic woods and mostly highly figured hardwoods. The best part is when I run ebony or bubinga through, the finish comes out like glass and is very satisfying to look at. The ebony I use is mostly the Gaboon ebony and my preference is pitch black, which is very hard to come by. I have had my machines for about 7 years now and I have never rotated any of the blades on the planer, but have rotated about 10 inserts on the jointer. That would be one rotation only leaving a life of three more rotations on the inserts that were rotated.

The inserts on all of our cutterheads are made in Germany primarily due to the fact that the Germans have a strict QC on the inserts and the grinding is controlled in the millionths of an inch. Therefore, if the cavities on the cutterheads are machined well, the inserts would all be at the same height. Just a little more info - the CNC "mills" that do this machining in Taiwan and China are made in Germany as well and the cutting tool is measured automatically between cuts to account for the wear on the cutting bit as it works its way between cavities. So imagine this, cutting tool makes a cut, then comes back quickly to a station that measures the wear. If okay, continues on to the next cut. If not okay makes an automatic adjustment in the height to make up for the wear and so on.

Little more info than you asked for, but good to know for general knowledge of why certain cutterheads do not leave scallop marks.

[John Hedges]

but good to know for general knowledge of why certain cutterheads do not leave scallop marks.

Thanks for all the info, but when you say scallop marks are you talking about the lines running the length of the board. If so it has always been my understanding that the Byrd heads leave these marks due to the radius on the insert which is intentional. While these marks exist they are hard to see unless you look at the board in a certain light. They also disappear with the lightest of sanding, which is fine as I would never go to finishing straight from a machine. If you are referring to something else when you say scalloping please let us know.

[Jameel Abraham]

Thanks for the very concrete and detailed info, Shiraz. This is just the kind of info I was looking for. I think your presence on forums is a wise move, and I for one greatly appreciate it. As a fellow instrument maker, I do appreciate the ability to process the difficult woods. Sounds like the Grizzly head is performing very well. Thanks again!

[Ron Williams]

I am currently using The grizzly 12" Ultimate and a 15" Planer bought with The Spiral segmented heads. I also have an 8" Powermatic and a 13" rockwell Invicta Planer. The grizzly machines give me the absolute best finish I have ever had. As far as having a different color of paint I got over that a long time ago. I bought the Grizz machines last year at the show in Vegas. The Grizz booth and the Powermatic booth were across the aisle from each other and after spending much time looking at these 2 brands and seeing them perform I could not pay more money than was necessary.

[Gregory Stahl]

Do you plan to sell anything? I created an LLC to protect myself, and in doing so, the Powermatic and Jet warranties automatically reverted to 1-year warranties. So, because the differing machines accomplish the same thing, are pretty much the same machine as far as I am concerned, and because parts are so easy to get from Grizzly, I decided to stick with Grizzly for my primary tool purchases. I don't know if there are any limitations on the Grizzly warranty for such a scenerio.

Don't think they will not call you out on this either--the local tool dealer knows I sell stuff and filled me in on this little detail!

Shiraz - When are you going to get the Grizzly 12" head for sale seperately? I don't see it on the website anywhere. I would like to upgrade my G0609:)!

My thinking is the Grizzly head functions like a back-beveled knife, however, there is always a knife in contact with the stock thanks to the spiral design. Maybe I am completely wrong-my wife says I am loosing it.

-Greg Stahl

[Shiraz Balolia]

Shiraz - When are you going to get the Grizzly 12" head for sale seperately? I don't see it on the website anywhere. I would like to upgrade my G0609:)!

-Greg Stahl


I think you just forced my hand! I'll get it added if it isn't already and will offer it for the 2009 catalog. They will probably be available towards the end of this year.

We do not have warranty exclusions for commercial use. Almost every major guitar company uses our machines for some or all of their daily production. They keep buying more machines - must like them!

[Steve Nouis]

We've had a PM 209HH for about a year. Though the machine does the job it is designed to do, I have been underwhelmed by some aspects of the design, features and build quality.

initial impressions:
http://sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=561310&postcount=1

I've still not seen conclusive data on the difference between the Byrd and Grizzly helical heads. The Byrd's gives a true shearing cut while the Grizzly does not (maybe). I seem to recall some reporting that the Grizzly leaves less scalloping as the inserts are straight-edged while the Byrds are radiused slightly. I like that the Byrd in our PM handles figure, interlocked and difficult grain exceptionally. Of course the exponential reduction in noise is a godsend.

Do not give the PM too many points for the casters. If it's same as the 209, (as it appears to be) they're fixed 1-1/2" x 3" wheels with bolts w/knobs screwing onto them serving as brakes. This works ok if you want to move the planer in a straight line, but if you want to turn, you're doing to have to slide the wheels "against their grain."

Have you considered the G0453Z 15" w/ helical head and built in "dis-engagable" swiveling caster? Or moving up to the G0454Z 20" w/helical head for the same $ as the PM? I really don't see much difference between these and Grizzly's "Extreme" series.

Not an easy decision, I don't think you'll regret buying either. Just don't expect European or old American quality, that costs a lot more.

-kg

Upon closer inspection a difference between the two Grizzlys may be the the type of spiral head. The 1021 looks like a Byrd head, while the 4053 looks like the Grizzly head.
I'll agree with Kevin, I just got a new PM209, no better quality than my buddys Grizzly, if it cost more than the Grizzly your just paying for the paint. When I bought mine PM was running 1/2 off on a dust collector so the price was real close. Steve

[Kevin Groenke]

I think you just forced my hand! I'll get it added if it isn't already and will offer it for the 2009 catalog. They will probably be available towards the end of this year.

Grizzly and Byrde spiral heads are here:
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2008/Main/47

Oh, no 12"Hmmm, I'm sure you can order it through the parts department.
http://www.grizzly.com/images/manuals/g0609x_m.pdf
# P0600X023

Save yourself the trouble of getting the bearings and supports off of the straight head by getting new bearing and supports. (#'s 20,21, 27, 28)

I hope you've got long arms, the reach through the dust shoot to remove the bolts holding the head/bearing/support assembly was a real stretch when I put the Byrd in...I'm 6'2".

-kg