Wood Too Hard for Pull Saw?

[Michael O'Sullivan]

I was cutting a Honduras Rosewood blank to size for a pen using an Ikeda dozuki.

About halfway through the second cut, I heard a funny sound, and the cutting action really slowed down.

I pulled the saw out of the cut, and about half the teeth were gone.

I finished the cut, and checked the wood. There was no obvious cause for the damage to the saw -- no nails or even knots.

Did I do something wrong, or are some woods too hard/dense for dozukis? I am wondering if there was a small patch of hardened resin that I hit.

[Casey Gooding]

Some Japanese saws have very brittle teeth. So much so that moving slightly out of square will cause the loss of teeth. I wouldn't expect that from such a small piece, but I guess it could happen.

[Brian Kent]

Is this a saw made for hardwoods or softwoods - the difference being tpi and the set of the teeth (narrower for hardwoods, wider for softwoods)?

Also, is it a saw (the particular blade and not just the style) you have used successfully in the past with more typical hardwoods? My first dozuki was too brittle and lost teeth very quickly. Rockler replaced the blade for free and that blade has lasted me a couple of years so far, including many hardwood cuts.

Also, you probably know this, but I've found that harder woods take a very light touch with pull saws. It's easier on the saws and makes for a cleaner, straighter cut.

[John Thompson]

Ditto on some of the Japanese pull saws are more geared for soft-wood. Ditto on using a light stroke with a pull saw...

Sarge..

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Michael,

Honduras rosewood (Dalbergia stevensonii) is about the meanest wood I have ever come across. I can believe it would tear the teeth off a hardpoint Japanese saw, especially a crosscut one. The crosscut teeth are particularly upright and lacking in depth, and on a commercial saw (unless you specifically know otherwise) are designed for soft wood.

Wiley

[Michael O'Sullivan]

Thanks for the responses -- I suspect I was not using a light enough touch.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I suspect I was not using a light enough touch..."

The worst thing you can do with a Japanese hand saw is to apply any downward pressure on the "return" (push) stroke. This is virtually guaranteed to wipe the teeth right off the blade. As has been pointed out by several others, your saw might have had teeth cut for softwoods. But, even so, you should not lose half the teeth! So technique is the more likely culprit. Another thing that will break a Japanese blade quicker than you can think about it is even the slightest variation from a straight cutting line when the blade is buried in the wood. Many experienced users recommend practice by holding the handle very lightly, applying no downward pressure at all and focusing on keeping the blade straight and true. Obviously, this may result in much slower cutting but after you master the motion, you can begin to use more pressure on the pull stroke. A lot of people simply give up at this point because this seems like a bit too much bother. To the untrained hand, these saws can seem very "finicky".

[Brian Kent]

What David said.


I just did some test cuts on Brazilian Cherry, Cocobolo, and Lignum Vitae. They all cut fine with a straight, light touch. Barely any pressure on the pull stroke and no intentional pressure on the push stroke.

I tried it with the Dozuki from Rockler and a Ryoba for hardwoods (from I don't remember where, but it is not an expensive saw). Both cut cleanly without tooth damage.

Brian

[Martin Shupe]

Thanks for the responses -- I suspect I was not using a light enough touch.

Light touch or the wrong saw?

Chris Schwarz talked about this when I took a saw course from him last spring. He said Japanese saws were made for Japanese wood species. If you use one on American wood, like oak, which has big differences in early and late wood, you will lose teeth. Perhaps you can get away with it on the "softer" hardwoods, but on "harder" hardwoods, perhaps Japanese saws are not the right tool.

I am no expert on Japanese saws, but I respect Chris' opinion.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Light touch or the wrong saw?

Chris Schwarz talked about this when I took a saw course from him last spring. He said Japanese saws were made for Japanese wood species. If you use one on American wood, like oak, which has big differences in early and late wood, you will lose teeth. Perhaps you can get away with it on the "softer" hardwoods, but on "harder" hardwoods, perhaps Japanese saws are not the right tool.

I am no expert on Japanese saws, but I respect Chris' opinion.


Just goes to prove that no one is perfect.

Pam

[Terry Beadle]

I have used Japanease saws for years. I especially like the dozuki. I have a couple ryoba's that are great. I've never broke a tooth during sawing.

I did break several teeth on a dozuki when I tried to file it. That ended my attempts to sharpen hardened teeth. Go figure!

I cut red oak, rock maple, andaroba, cherry, river birch and others with Japanease saws. Yes, they go through cypress and aromatic cedar like a rocket. Hardwoods need light touch and attention.

I also have english saws. A late 1800's dovetail saw is my favorite. Found on Ebay for under $30. Has a little bit of cracked metal but sharpens up easily and controlled cuts are a pleasure.

I think Pam's comment is clear.

It could be a defective saw. It could be some thing else. But I don't think Chris is right on this one. Now, next week when I write my first magazine article, I'm sure every one will believe everything I say...hoot!