Don't hate me because I'm beautiful

[John Makar]

The day has come. After +35 years of all things computer from Launch Guidance systems to terminally dull COBOL accounting programs I am eligible for a permanent modest stipend sufficient to maintain a steady diet of Top Ramen.

The house/cars are paid for, the youngest either grads from pre-med in December or flips burgers, and I don't care which nor what his mother says.

Got a small shop lovingly decorated in tastefully selected vintage Delta, Porter, Bench Dog, even some [limited] Veritas/Lie Nielsen; has its own breaker box and external dust closet.

So, whatcha all think? Is it possible to create a business doing this stuff and actually generate positive cash flow.

Preference runs to boxes and Art&Crafts. No period stuff.

[Ted Torres]

The house/cars are paid for, the youngest either grads from pre-med in December or flips burgers, and I don't care which nor what his mother says.

Wow, Congrats John! :D

I find myself in a similar situation, but youngest is going to grad school with a full paid assistantship...thus mom & dad get a BIG Raise! ;)

Anyway, although I have an outfitted shop and have created some neat stuff over these past 32 years or so, my fair WW skills dictate I Keep making sawdust as a hobby...maybe in the future...!?

Good Luck with your endeavors...(WW, a great way to retire)!

Ted

[Jack Camillo]

My house AINT paid for, the kid is ABOUT to start college, OWE on all the cars... I certainly wouldn't expect to make a GOOD living woodworking. But, good thing I like my job. Best of luck to you.
jack

[Terry Sparks]

Congrats John, I envey you!

I still have 3 more years to go until my youngest (two of six) graduates three years from now. Some day I will be joining you in that retirement idea of sitting in my shop on a Saturday afternoon, watching Joe McKnight and the USC Trojans run all over LSU for another National Championship... while I happly work on a cabinet.

[John Makar]

Mine's a fourth semester senior and will be fifth semester when he finishes or else. I told them tuition, books, fees, room and board at in-state rate to a four year public university. I figure if they can't survive after undergrad the problem will not be solved by additional education. I went on the G.I. Bill in the '70's. The terms I offered were much more generous than anything I saw.

But, I figure WW as a new career, not retirement. I've got maybe 40 more years, and there is no way I can do more time in corporate or government. Probably my current hobby of pissing off executives is career limiting in IT anyway. Still, the expression on their face when you tell them what the consequence of their action is really going to be is rather satisfying. Craftsmen just have such a different perspective on things.

Right now all I see is the opportunity, and how is learning a new WW skill different than learning C++, except that C++ lasted what, 10 years maybe. Learn, try, fix. WW just seems to be a odd little niche industry where somebody gets an idea, creates a product that a bunch of people figure out how to go off and do new and creative things with, and we all end up happier. SOMEWHERE in all of that is a place for me. I'm just not sure I can make any money at it. I'd like to at least be able to cover the material costs.

[Bruce Volden]

SOMEWHERE in all of that is a place for me. I'm just not sure I can make any money at it. I'd like to at least be able to cover the material costs.

Well John,

5 months from tomorrow (1-02-09) I pull the plug on the post office where I have fixed processing machines for +/- 30 years!! I'm sure YOU won't be able to make any money WW'ing so I'll just come on out and take some equipment off your hands :D

Seriously 'tho, congratulations.

Bruce

[steve reeves]

My situation is very similar to yours.

Unless you can find some "niche" market for something it's a very very tough row to hoe.

You may make a few bucks doing "craft" type items but the pay is poor (as are the clientele for such). I've seen them come and go very quickly at the flee markets and "craft shows" around here for a couple of decades at least...

High end custom furniture is about the only place I can see making any money and unless you have the contacts (and reputation that takes years to earn) that's also a tough row to hoe.

Forget the cabinet business... those guys have a tremendous investment in machinery to get the jobs done quickly and unless you've got an installation/sales crew at the ready you'll already be out of most jobs.

I've been fortunate through contacts that I made over many years to get a bit of good paying work building upper end office spaces with lots of built ins... however, I made those contacts not through woodworking but on the golf course! and then referrrals from there.

You have to remember most anything you can build someone is already geared up and mass producing it.... even much of the "custom" work now days is done by shops with CNC machines that can lay it out on a computer and have automated machines cut all the parts... Assembly, dusting and finishing are about the only things still done by hand and even those are semi-automated.

I know one local fellow who does "okay" building nothing but bird houses and porch swings... but it's nickles and dimes if you know what I mean.

However he stays busy in his shop, doesn't need the money to pay his bills and it keeps him happy. That's at least half the battle.

Good luck and congrats on being near to having the last bird grow mature wings..!!



I'm not familiar with your work so I'm speculating quite a bit...

[Dave Tinley]

John-
I know you have heard this before, but it is very true.
"Life is too short, and we dont get to start over again"
January of 2007 I turned 50, I had a real good friend that was about the same age as I was and he had a good wife. They were coming back from a trip to Austin, she had a sudden stroke and passed away. It really opened my eyes.
June of 2007 I retired from the automotive field after 26 years.
I had a decent shop, tools all paid for and a pretty good supply of lumber.
I advertised on Craigs list and met some people thru the chamber of commerce. I have stayed pretty steady this past year, even with this "recession", I am doing ok. Now my overhead is very low, and I work as hard as I want, but I would not trade it for any full time job I can think of.

Yes, it takes a few years to get established, and in the meantime you hone your skills by trying a variety of projects. I know someone said to forget about building cabinets, and while he is partially true in his assestment, there is work for the small cabinet shop. Lots of the bigger shops dont want to mess with the one, two or three cabinet job. It's just not feasable for them when they can do a whole kitchen, etc.
Look at doing some bathroom vanities. People really like those, they are small but can be built to look like furniture. And as a plus, it gets your name out there and I have found that the same customer that wants a vanity, desides they need some other small cabinets.

Sorry for the long post, but if you truely believe that woodworking is something you want to do, then go out there and do it. Worse thing that you can do is not give it a shot, and ten years down the road, wish you had, cause ya aint gonna get them years back.

[John Makar]

What you just said is what I suspected. I've looked into a couple of other post-retirement second career paths and seen the same thing. Simply, it takes time, capital, heavy commitment, and a fair amount of luck. At 56, the five - ten years it takes to get up to journey level status closes many options regardless what the experts on the new retirement say.

All of which ends up leading me back to the 'do what you love' thing. I'm not convinced it's impossible however. It may be though, that the only people that can work at this are post-retirement boomers who can be very patient. Still, the web changes things.

[Victor Stearns]

John,
I vote for the jump in with both feet and don't look back! While I can only hope to get the two children through some sort of college over the course of the next 5-years, I would love to follow my passion in woodworking. I too have a well stocked shop and look forward to finally telling the boss have a nice life, I know I will!
Good Luck
Victor

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John....I won't hate you 'cause your beautiful....But I'll turn green with envy!

I'm hoping to do something similar in about a year. I started working on oil rigs in 1964 at the age of 15 and have been supporting myself and a family since. Next year I hope to retire and plan on doing something part time....whether it's working at a Borg....a hardware store.....and yes some woodworking. I hope to have my turning skills at a high enough level that I can at least pay for the addiction. I don't want to have to resort to burglary, etc.:rolleyes:

Congrats and Good Luck!

[John Makar]

Eons ago I was involved in business development for a large software services company. We were constantly getting beat out of smaller jobs by itty-bitty shops that had zippo overhead while we were struggling with executive ego syndrome.

In the end we had to focus on only major contracts, which are rare and extremely competitive, and look for any way we could to pick up money on the back-end of the contract. The customers were mostly smart enough to know that, and the whole thing was a dysfunctional cycle that I was glad to finally escape. Lots of stress and airline tickets, and bad food and worse hotels. Every time I've been fired my life immediately improved significantly.

Small is Beautiful and can be competitive. It's good to hear from people experiencing it in the here and now. My goals are modest, and either way I get to have fun this time.

[Mike Schmalzer]

I know I am in a little bit of a different boat, as I don't have kids and not too many bills but you are in a pretty good position. I am only 26 and just took the dive. Some friends, family, past co-workers thought it was unrealistic and it turns out I am making almost 3x more this year than I was years past and probably as much or more as some of my engineer friends. But the key thing is I am my own boss and happy. If things don't end up working out, oh well, at least I tried.

I found my niche in high end custom furniture. Word spreads fast if you do good work,

[Loren Hedahl]

I was fortunate enough to retire early . . . . I was only 48.

Going into it, I decided I was not going to get into photography or woodworking. Those were only things for codgers!

Well, in the meantime the kids grew up, got married and we now have grandchildren. Guess what. Yup! I have a nice digital SLR.

Also, the house began to look fairly decrepit . . . especially the bathrooms and kitchen. Guess what. Yup! I bought a Festool circular saw and a small DeWalt benchtop saw and started in on the RV to get some experience.

Neighbors saw the inside of our RV and now I have done several more! Bathroom is almost done and my wife keeps showing her friends . . .

I really didn't want another career.

[Roger Wilson]

You might consider going to the Turning forum and discussing this as well.

Turning pens and bowls etc. is much less labor intensive per item and if you are willing to do commercial/architectural spindle work, from what I've read, you can make some money. Add some teaching and you've got a second career.

Good luck.

[Brandon Shew]

I say go for it. If you want to go high end furniture like Steve mentioned, I would suggest going to school somewhere for at least 6 months to really learn the craft.

[Thomas Pender]

I second any advice on going for it, but also I like the recommendation proceeding my reply that you go to school. There are many to choose from. Looks like a prolonged road trip to scope them out:D.

One thing to consider, if you do not do, you will always wonder. Besides, if you can make enough to clear the over head and buy cool tools, you will be way ahead. Also, those children of yours will want wedding presents and given the price of fine furniture, they will welcome what you make - trust me, mine do. Plus, you will have time to post on the Creek.:)

T

[Brian Ross]

I turn 60 next month and retired 4 years ago. Been doing woodworking and construction for all my life on the side. I have lived my life on the premise that is better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all. Had lots of contacts prior to retiring and have never looked back. Being Self employed is not a 40 hr week, more like 65. I also discovered in the first 2 years you can be very busy but not make any money. The sad part was that I discovered that the reason I was not making money was that I was not asking for it. I never disclose my labor rate, I provide a cost for the finished product. I am not aware of any product sold on todays market that breaks down the price to show what porition is material and what is labor. $25 per hr will ensure you will stay below the poverty line while $50 may allow you to enjoy a meal out once and awhile but you will not get rich. I have one employee that I hired 2 mos ago. He had graduated from a 2 year program at a community college dealing with home renovation. He is a great person but knows squat about construction or woodworking. Had never used air nailers, never touched on the subject of installing doors or windows and I could go on and on. Have spoken to other employers and my experience is not unique. I am sure there are good schools out there but if I wanted to learn I would be looking at some of the private institutions out there.Word of mouth is your best source of new work and if you are not getting any referrals you might be in the wrong business.I am beginning to ramble so take care and enjoy the journey.

Brian

[John Shuk]

I hope retirement is good to you.
The best advice I've heard as far as a wwking business was to make a product. I'm sure commissions can be lucrative but if you make a good product that is well thought out and that you can be productive making you will probably at least be well compensated for you time and materials.

[Hank Knight]

I notified my Firm I was retiring at the end of this year. They have invited me to stay on as long as I like and I will probably wait until the economy stabalizes - if I can wait that long. Leaving now feels a little like jumping out of a plane with holes in my parachute.

In any event, I have given lots of thought to turning my woodworking hobby into a business. I've decided against it. It's my hobby. I enjoy it and I look forward to spending time in the shop. It's fun. If I turn it into a business, it would become work. I would have to market it, and if I was successful, I would have customers to please and delivery deadlines to meet. My hobby would quickly become an obligation to my customers and to my wife. As it is now, the only person I have to please is me and I can take as long to do it as I like - or not. I'm afraid working at woodworking would ruin it for me and I don't want that.

I have, however, considered looking for some attractive product I can make at my leasure and sell. The hope wouild be to realize a modest income to reinvest in my hobby. If it doesn't work, no big deal. I still get to keep my hobby as just that - a hobby.

My $.02

Hank

[Paul B. Cresti]

I have tried to make a living at it but it did not work.....my situation was a bit different though - (3) young kids, house, cars, wife is home.....

I did learn a couple of things though. You have to enter woodworking professionally as a business if you want to make money at it. View it as any kind of business and you are simply making a product. If you are entering it with a passion for the craft and the creation of beautiful objects (as I did) then do not expect to be paid for it....it will be simply a very serious "hobby" that you get some money to cover materials

The people that make money at this business have: created a product and simple produce it with little or no variations, produce a line of products at a mass production level, work in the extremely high end market where fees can begin to create profits (requires many years of making nothing and then getting a break and getting noticed....luck).

Basically I would say if you enjoy doing woodworking and are already financially sound and are looking for ways to keep active then fine go for it......but if you are looking to make a living and support yourself and others then do not do it IMHO

[Ellen Benkin]

Just enjoy woodworking and don't try to make a living at it. If you are lucky, some people will actually pay you to make things, if you are not luck with that you can still enjoy the process. Making stuff for others with some kind of time frame and design style was too much stress for me. I just make what interests me and sometimes I give it away and sometimes I can get someone to pay for the materials.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, it is possible to create a profitable business. Not easy. But possible. As long as you have the funding to persevere for some period of time as you build your business and find your market, it's worthy of your consideration. But that means the funds to pay the mortgage, put food on the table and fund the business for up to several years.

[John Makar]

I started digging and doing more research. Highly, highly possible to do this. In the last week I have talked to five guys doing the same idea but with different interest areas. Turning, boxes, chairs, etc., plus in my town it turns out that we have one of the most successful artist co-ops in the state.

Making money at it... Waaaaal we're gonna find out.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

So, whatcha all think? Is it possible to create a business doing this stuff and actually generate positive cash flow.

Preference runs to boxes and Art&Crafts. No period stuff.

Yes and no.

I have seen a lousy music stand (I thought it was really crappy) made in an organic style that sold for $250,000.00
I've seen other items like that which sold for what I thought were astonishing sums.

So yes. The problem is that you have to be in the right circles. You'd need to be pals with the right folks have graduated from RISD or their Italian counterpart and be highly recommended etc., by all the snooty artsy types, have your stuff featured in journals like the Atlantic Monthly - - on and on.

There are guys you can find on the web who "appear" to be in the box making business - heres a slew:
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=B8q&q=Custom+woodwork+boxes&btnG=Search

Whether any of them actually turns a profit is your guess. I suppose you could call and ask.

I tried to earn an income making custom furniture about three decades ago. I found that Joe Q. Public and I don't get along very well. I think he' a drooling idiot and he thinks I'm an arrogant jerk.

My position:
Woodworkign is a lovely hobby. Why ruin it by making a business of it?

[Peter Quinn]

I say Go for it. Start small, but definitely start. You may not get rich but I find working wood very rewarding.

You analogize learning C++ to learning the skills of wood working. Seems appropriate. Most manual trades are a long series of simple steps well executed by experienced hands, and in time experience will come. Its a language of techniques.

Here's the but...The difference between between a guy that makes things from wood and a profitable custom furniture maker is like the difference between learning a new language and writing a novel in that language. Just because you know the words does not mean you will implicitly have something interesting to say. Luckily you do not have to break through with a master piece on your first attempt in wood working.

[Don Bullock]

John, congratulations on reaching that milestone. I must say that retirement is fantastic!:D

I retired June 13th after 37 years teaching elementary school. One house is fully paid for and we just owe a little on the other one. All three cars are paid for and I have all the major woodworking tools that I have to have (sure I'd like more, but they will come in time). I should have my new shop built soon if the county will finally grant my building permit (hope to find out tomorrow). The LOML of all 37 years and I will be moving to our new "retirement" home next June, after she retires, and enjoy life with our basset hounds, close friends and relatives. Yep, there is promise in your future. Enjoy!;):D

As for making money at woodworking it all depends on what you make and whether there is a market out there for it. You'll just have to shift production to match the market. I know of people who were all caught up in making "country" items for homes, but that market has died out and they are having difficulty fitting into current trends. What was a lucrative business has become a liability with unsold stock.