Chisels on eBay: Q's and a warning

[Marc Hills]

I get most of my vintage tools from eBay. Time and vehicle constraints really make it the best avenue for me. In general, I’ve had a very positive experience buying off eBay, but it has led to a few questions.

First, why are antique chisels so unbelievably expensive? Is this just an eBay phenomenon or is it true in all vintage tool venues?

Consider that without trying too hard you can get an antique #4 or #5 bench plane in fair shape for about $25 shipped. To get an equivalent new tool today, you’d have to look at something like a Veritas for around $150. Now 150 new tool dollars buys a very nice boxed set of new Two Cherries, Hirsh, or Ashley Isles chisels, not to mention a decent set of Japanese tools.

But what will $25 buy you in vintage chisels? At best two unmatched chisels in fair condition. Amassing a set by bidding on separate auctions gets very expensive, especially when you factor in shipping costs. And matched chisel sets? Well, I’ve come close to winning a couple of times on a set of vintage Craftsman chisels, and once on a set of Fultons, but in general the bid prices for complete chisel sets quickly ascend through the stratosphere.

I’m not looking for collectibles here, just users with something other than a thermoplastic handle. I’m happy to let someone else pay $80 for a single Stanley 750.

And it almost goes without saying that one can get unbelievable deals on older braces, auger bits and handsaws (still have that goofy smile James?). But not old backsaws or, inscrutably, brass plumb bobs. Why? WHY?

My second question is has anyone noticed that there are great bargains to be had if you live in England? I mean if you want mortise chisels, it’s a buyer’s market in Great Britain. Now, I know that our former colonial landlords have been around about 6 times as long as the US, which certainly creates more antiques of every kind.

But why only the UK? Why not a LOT more eBay auctions for vintage tools from France, Austria, Germany, Spain and Italy? Those EC countries have been around for a while too, and they certainly have storied reputations for woodworking. Come on, where are all the vintage Portuguese hand tools?

My last question is perhaps more rhetorical and a warning to all my fellow woodworkers, but who does this guy think he’s fooling?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20762&item=2397380119&rd=1

The matched wood handled set in the upper right looks suspiciously like these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20762&item=2396271388&rd=1

Note the “buy it now” price.

And I can’t be sure, but those black handled chisels look a lot like some Chinese sets I see go for the asking at $2.99.

This guy only has one auction like this now, but I’ve seen variations on his theme in several other listings. He displays one or two halfway interesting chisels up front in the picture and then pads the package with two additional matched sets of unidentified chisels in the back. Bundled together with items identified as vintage, he’s creating the expectation that at least the other wood handled chisels may also be antiques. The high starting bid covers his costs for his flea market finds and further sets up the expectation for something valuable.

I know the fine print indicates that his stuff is sold as-is and may be old or new. I also notice that he’s not cross-listing his auctions in the Collectibles category of eBay. And finally I know caveat emptor. But the way I see it, this guy is trafficking in buyer ignorance by emulating an established eBay phenomenon: the vintage chisel lot.

Does anyone else find this whole vintage + incredibly cheap Chinese tool package concept more than a little sleazy?

I just hate to see anyone getting taken.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Since you live only over in Maine you should make the effort to get to the Live Free or Die (LFOD) auctions over in Nashua. While the auction itself doesn't always have what you want, the flea market/ tailgate session in the parking lot on both days usually does. I picked up a great Buck Brothers 3/8" chisel for $10 last Saturday and there were plenty of chisels of all types readily available at reasonable prices. You could without difficulty get most of the old tools you want there and actually handle them and inspect them so you wouldn't be buying based on pictures and descriptions alone. It is well worth taking a vacation day from work to attend.

FYI the next one is in July at the Withington Estate in Hillsboro and there is one in September at Nashua. Full info is available at Martin Donelly's website- www.mjdtools.com (http://www.mjdtools.com) As a side benefit or detriment, depending on your point of view, you can get to meet Roger Myers and myself since we rarely miss one of these events.

[Bob Smalser]

I generally believe it to be a mistake competing with collectors for matched sets and prime condition tools anywhere...Ebay being no exception...if user tools are what you are after.

I've been buying lovely older Buck, Swan and Stanley socket chisels and gouges all winter in the 10-20 dollar range...many with perfect handles, too. I'll make my own matched sets given enuf time.

[James Carmichael]

Bob's right on, once again. I deliberately avoid the pristine-condition stuff. Example (no gloat intended): I bought a nice Disston #12 handsaw for $33.50. It has a hairline crack in and someone's initial in the handle (which would sand out) and some rust on the blade, but is in very usable condition. It's more dapper twin brother sold for $200 the next day.

Interesting note: A Disston Eagle-head saw went for $2,000

[Marc Hills]

I still don't quite understand what it about chisels though that makes them so disproportionately expensive. Maybe a better way to phrase it is: why are vintage cross cut saws and braces so unbelievably cheap?

Dave, you tried to entice me last summer and believe me, I'm weakening. The opportunity to meet you and Roger would probably be the best reason to drive a couple of hours west. I actually came close to calling you up last fall and asking about hitching a ride north for the Doug and Ben's Neander Meander.

Bob: I did get an old socket mortise firmer chisel at a local flea market. The handle needs to be replaced and your primer will guide me. I'm sure you've hit the chisel on the leather washer when you say it's a mistake going up against collectors. I have absolutely nothing against buyers who don't actually use the tools (well, except maybe people who paint folk art scenes on old handsaws), it's just that they always seem to have more money than I do.

James: I can do you one better. I don't believe I've ever paid more than $15 including shipping for a hand saw, including a nice applewood handled thumbhole rip saw that I believe Disston made for Zenith (it certainly looks like a Disston). I'm refurbishing it now and I'm anxious to take it for a spin. I almost responded to your "Where have old handsaws been all my life?" thread, but everyone else said it so well: it's another one of those 'Eureka' moments that keeps us speeding down the slope.

[Alan Turner]

Mark,
Hang in there on the chisels. I have a set of Stanley 750's -- 1/4, 3/8/ 1/2 5/8 3/4 7/8 1" 1.5". I paid no more than $15 for any of them, and paid as little as free and $3 for a couple. When you are at a flea market, ask to dig through the seller's old boxes, always int eh van, and see what you can find. That is how I got the free one. He didn't look closely enough at the unhandled chisel to pick it up. But, I did have to pay him $3 for a stanley 7501 handle (wrong size for the one he gave me). Of course, I did buy other stuff from him also. All of that said, I still haveln't found a reasonably priced 1/8" 750, and probably won't except by accident. Mine are definitely users, and the 1/2"er is my go to guy.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Marc, you aren't going to find many good deals on chisels on the internet. E-bay, antique dealers and tool sellers are all high. Take a look at a few of these chisels.

http://www.antique-used-tools.com/stanleychisels.htm

http://www.jonzimmersantiquetools.com/tools/edgelist.htm

http://www.globalantiquetools.com/misc/a731.htm

You have to be careful when dealing with Stanley 720 and 750 chisels because there are numbered and unnumbered chisels that look identical. A numbered 750 in good condition will go for $30-40, while an identical chisel with no number goes for $10-12.

I was contemplating a Stanley 750 on line for $25, but the seller said it wasn't marked 750. He said it was obviously a 750 because it was identical in all other respects. Well, it may be identical, but without the 750 on the chisel, its worth a lot less.

Unless you really want to own and use old tools, you're better off buying a new set of two cherries or similar chisels.

Of course, none of the above applies if you live anywhere in the north east where used tools are plentiful in garage sales, thrift shops and auctions. Down here in Texas, decent used tools are hard to come by.

[James Carmichael]

Marc, you aren't going to find many good deals on chisels on the internet. E-bay, antique dealers and tool sellers are all high. Take a look at a few of these chisels.

http://www.antique-used-tools.com/stanleychisels.htm

http://www.jonzimmersantiquetools.com/tools/edgelist.htm

http://www.globalantiquetools.com/misc/a731.htm

You have to be careful when dealing with Stanley 720 and 750 chisels because there are numbered and unnumbered chisels that look identical. A numbered 750 in good condition will go for $30-40, while an identical chisel with no number goes for $10-12.

I was contemplating a Stanley 750 on line for $25, but the seller said it wasn't marked 750. He said it was obviously a 750 because it was identical in all other respects. Well, it may be identical, but without the 750 on the chisel, its worth a lot less.

Unless you really want to own and use old tools, you're better off buying a new set of two cherries or similar chisels.

Of course, none of the above applies if you live anywhere in the north east where used tools are plentiful in garage sales, thrift shops and auctions. Down here in Texas, decent used tools are hard to come by.


What part of Texas are you in, Dennis? Same problem here around Fort Worth, not many used tools unless you're talking ranch or oilfield stuff.

I might hit the Weatherford First Monday trade day this weekend. I picked up a WoodCock Sheffield firmer chisel and Union protractor square last trip. I'm joining SWTCA to try and network a little, that's probably the best way to find good old tools reasonably priced. Ebay is fun, but impulse bidders drive prices up and as you said, the antique tool websites are pricey as well.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I'm in San Antonio James. This is old tool hell. Only rusted, broken planes for $30 and short rusted chisels for $15 here.

[Perry Schmidt]

Yup - same thing here. I did this 'look for old planes and saws' exercise about 6+ months ago in the Dallas area. Same results - hard to fine at garage/estate sales or flea markets. And when you do find them VERY expensive. I remember a #5 Stanley plane that some guy wanted just over $100 for. It was rusted very badly and the plane body was cracked and brazed together...and rather poorly. The 'good ones' - i.e. not cracked, but rusted very badly - were much higher priced. And there weren't many to find either. In three flea market trips I think I found 5 planes total - all in absolutely terrible condition. None of them were repairable in my opinion.

I called Tom Law once about a used saw at this time - he basically said that down south, handtools at garage sales doesn't work. They love power tools down here, but hand tools are non-existant. East coast and Midwest is where you'll find them that way.

I eventually ended up w/ some average to good deals on ebay, but it took over a month of watching, bidding, etc. And lots LOTS of bids. Seems right at the end someone bids it up every time. But if you persist, you can get some good deals. I got 3 hand-saws in pretty good shape - needs some cleaning and sharpening but that's it. 2 Disstons - a D8 and a D15 (yea, a D15, not D115). The third was a...rats, can't remember the name. But it was one I thought was considered pretty good...started w/ an S. (And no, not a Stanley :) Anyway, got these saws for about $30 for all three.

So you can get good deals on ebay - just takes some time. And set your price beforehand and stick to it. Otherwise you will pay a lot. I you see lots and LOTs Of bids in the last minute. You'd get a rash of bids then. Many times I'd bid w/ 10 minutes to go and I'd be the winning bidder. Then in the last minute 2-3 people would have a short bidding war and the price would almost double. I remember reading about some bidding software that would enter your bid the last second. I can see where that'd be useful b/c it seems like theres a handful of people just waiting at the end to bid it up. I can't count the number of times I was the top bidder then the next screen refresh I wasn't in the last minute of an auction.

Perry

[James Carmichael]

Perry,

The last-second bidding is known as "sniping". Check out www.hammersnipe.com. It's free to use for up to 3 items per week. You register, enter the Ebay item you want to bid on and your max bid. It will submit your bid 20-seconds before auction end (you can specify a time also). If you pay for their priority service, you can cut it even closer, down to 3-seconds, I think.

I discovered it when I was trying to buy some veneer, I kept getting outbid by $1 10 seconds before end (veneer buyers are all snipers!). I don't think I necessarily win anymore auctions or pay much less for items, but by sniping, it's more like a sealed-bid auction, your bid is not out there for someone else to see and try to outbid you, plus you don't have to sit and watch the end of the auction. It's also server-to-server, so your connection speed is irrelevant.

[Michael Campbell]

I discovered it when I was trying to buy some veneer, I kept getting outbid by $1 10 seconds before end (veneer buyers are all snipers!).


Just as an FYI here, you didn't get outbid by $1, you just got outbid, period. If the bidder who won had a higher bid than you *BY ANY AMOUNT*, $1, $100, $10000, it only bids up to just just enough to win, which happened to be $1 more than yours.

If you don't want to snipe, just put in the max you're willing to pay up front. You'll either win the auction at that price or less, or someone else will, but since you put in your max price, they were willing to pay more than you were so nothing lost there. Easy enough.

All sniping does is eliminate the "emotional" bidders who won't put in their full highest proxy bid initially, and want to watch the auction and /manually/ up their bid.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I agree with Michael. Put in you max and see what happens. If the sniper bids higher than your max, you lose and if not you'll win anyway. I usually just throw my bid out there and see what happens. A few times, I've violated my rules and put in multiple bids. But in my defense, it was an unusual situation. The same guy kept outbidding me for several different tools. I decided to teach him a lesson and bid really high and won a couple of chisels. Cost me way more than they were worth, but boy did I teach hime a lesson:-)!!!!

The best way to do it is just surf a lot and bid on a lot of auctions. You'll lose most, but the ones you win will be at a good price.

[James Carmichael]

For the record, I agree, there's no difference between simply making a set bid and sniping, monetarily. As Michael stated, much bidding is emotional. Sniping keeps your bid hidden until the last minute so someone can't keep entering new amounts until they outbid you, which happened on the last item I bid outright on, the other guy entered 8 bids until he passed me.

My apologies to all for turning this topic into a debate of how to bid on Ebay. Ebay has it's own forums for this sort of thing, so I'm through with it.

It has been interesting to compare notes with fellow Texas tool aficionados and find they have the same frustrations as me.

[Tom Scott]

Ditto! I never have bought an old (hand) tool in Texas. About the only ones I have seen were in the more boutique antique stores being sold as decorator accessories.
To take this even further, I think Dallas is a new city with little appreciation for things of age. It's not unusual to completely tear down a house less than 30 years old to make room for a bigger, newer one, even if it does have some architectural significance. It is also a city that hit it big within recent history. The "historical" areas of Dallas were generally built up around the 1930's. It is not a city that evolved around an old village. It doesn't have the quaint areas from the 18th and 19th century that the New England area does. It is also a city that evolved from bigger business. You don't seem to have the same "yankee thrift" mentality that I always hear about. The exception to this would be the rural areas of Texas, but even there you aren't going to find farmers and ranchers who have the time to build their own furniture.
Sorry for the digression, just an explanation of the old tool hell in which some of us live. The thought of going to a garage sale or flea market and finding a usable hand tool is a completely foreign concept to me. However, if any of you Yankees want to come look for used a skill saw or plastic children's toys, come on down 'cause we got plenty of those.

Tom

[Perry Schmidt]

Michael/James - I agree w/ your Ebay assessment on bidding. The only thing the sniping tool might give you is it prevents someone else from 'emmotional bidding' after you enter a bid. Only works if you and only one other person are bidding. If there's more than one, then those two will drive up the price. And I agree - most of the times it wasn't just me and one other person. So having never used the 'sniping' tool I'll take Jame's input in that it probably doesn't help you win any more auctions.

Ah well...enough on ebay for me too.

Thanks for the feedback on the 'sniper' tool.

Perry

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Another horror story from Old Tool Hell (Texas). I got the bug to do flea market bottom feeding a couple years ago after reading all the stories on Badger Pond. Being naive, I dreamt about all the cheap tools I would find. First I tried a small flea market in McKinney, Tx. There was not a tool to be found. I decided I needed to try Canton Trade Days. Now the flea market in Canton, Tx is suppose to one of the largest ongoing flea markets in the US (at least according to their advertisements). I believe I found a grand total of ONE tool booth which was run by dealer who obviously knew he was Tool Hell and priced his stuff accordingly. There were scattered tools and various other tables, but the prices were ridiculous for the condition. One guy tried to tell me that his rust frozen Stanley #4-1/2 had a book value of $150. I didn't even try to explain to him that the price of $150 was for a rare type in mint condition, I just walked away. I was so disheartened after the Canton experience that I gave up on my dreams of bottom feeding in OTH, Tx.

Wendell

[James Carmichael]

Wendell,

Not sure where Murphy is, but I find some pretty good stuff in Weatherford (just West of Fort Worth) First Monday, which is this weekend. There's one dealer out there every month who's pretty reasonable.

Is Badger Pond a more appropriate forum for tool collecting? I'm not sure this is the right place.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Thanks for the heads up James. Have you ever seen any backsaws out there? Murphy is on the north-east side of Dallas (in between Plano and Wylie if that helps). Weatherford is about as far away as you can be and still be in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, but I may try to make a special trip out there sometime. Badger Pond no longer exists. It's demise caused Keith Outten to start this Forum. Most of the forums I visit, people talk about using hand tools rather collecting. You may want to look into signing on to the Old Tool List (http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/oldtools.html) . It's basically a bunch of people that talk about using and collecting old tools through email. I read through the archives (http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/index.phtml#recent) sometimes, but I don't subscribe. If you're not a member already, you may be interested in SWTCA (http://www.swtca.org/) (Southwest Tool Collectors Association). I joined in hopes of making some connections with local people selling tools, but I haven't been able to make a meet yet.

Wendell

[James Carmichael]

Wendell,

I filled out the SWTCA membership today, just need to get it in the mail. There is a meet scheduled for this summer in Bedford.

I am surprised to hear Canton wasn't productive, I was thinking of hitting that one myself, haven't been there in almost 20 years.

Weatherford is not nearly as big (as Canton) and I've only been there once since getting into the WW hand tools, on a rainy Sunday, so it was slow. But I did find a collector/trader who is there every month and had a lot of interesting tools that were pretty reasonable. Grade-wise, his stuff looked about my speed, users but no eye-popping collectors. Of course, I'm a novice, so there could have been the holy grail right under my nose and I probably wouldn't know.

PM me sometime, Wendell, if you'd like to exchange email addresses, maybe we can start a D/FW tool nuts network.

On the subject of old tools, does anyone know of a reference for Atkins and/or Simonds saws? Something describing the different models and features? I've read which models are most desireable (Atkins 400 and 68, Simonds 4 and 4 1/2), but no description or pictures, so I wouldn't know one if I saw it. There's tons of info on Disstons thanks to Vintage Saws and Disstonian Institute.

[Perry Schmidt]

James -

I live just north of Dallas...actually rather close to Murphy. But my experiences were the same as Wendell's. Been to Canton once and the McKinney markets a number of times. Very few to no tools, and WAY over priced.

I have to remember your 'tool dealer connection'.

Thanks,

Perry

[Tom Scott]

If any of you DFW people try Weatherford again, let me know what you find. The old tools that I have were bought on E-B, and I'd love to find some place where I could actually handle them before I buy. I haven't been out to Canton in a few years, but didn't have much luck back then. Midlothian is south of the metroplex, but only 30 minutes to downtown D or FW, so I can go either direction without much problem.

Tom