Trimming out a house - how to bid?

[Todd Burch]

I've been presented with a full set of plans for a 6300+ square foot house and asked to bid ALL the trimwork. Single piece 4¼" Crown, 3¼" casings & window frames, 4½" base, built-ins, cabinet boxes (and install pre-ordered doors and drawer fronts), make drawer boxes, adjustable & fixed shelves, media cabinet boxes, storage cabinet boxes, yada, yada, yada. I've never priced out "bulk" trim like this.

The kicker to this - I would have 4 weeks to do the whole house. I'm thinking I might need ALL my tools insite, and would have to duplicate myself about 6 times.

The General Contrator wants me to bid labor only - he would supply all materials. Everything is paint grade. (In his words - he doesn't want "furniture"!)

Not sure I want this one.

Todd

[Lars Thomas]

If I were you (I'm not), I would shy away from this one - unless of course you need the work to pay for all that hardware!! From looking at your work, it seems like the work you do is more sensitive to quality then deadlines. Working with a GC will get you involved in the pro-bono call back mess, too.


Or, you could figure the going rate for the job - then double it. See if the GC is still interested. If so, jump in and enjoy.

[Tim Sproul]

Ahh.....but at double the going rate, the expectations are going to be awfully high. If you don't have access/contacts to the SKILLED help you're going to require....seems like you should pass on the job, regardless of the money.

btw Todd....received the moving blankets. It is a pleasure to trade with you.

[Michael Perata]

Todd

You can not do a 6,300 sf house by yourself in 4 weeks. Do not kid yourself.

This is from a contractor, me, who used to build those houses.

[Rob Russell]

Todd,

I haven't trimmed out a house - yet. That's project #2 for the big green stuff.

I hired a cabinet-dude to do the woodwork in our addition. It was all furniture grade work, but the trim out alone for a 32x24' took a couple of days.

4 weeks on a 6300' house? Sure - if you work 24 hours a day and don't make any mistakes. "GC-supplied materials" and "paint grade" (which means you have no control over quality/quantity) tells me he's trying to find a guy he can squeeze a low bid out of and get the best of.

Tell him you'd be happy to bid on similar project, but your terms are:

You supply and control materials
"Paint-grade" doesn't mean cheap work, it simply means poplar vs. oak/cherry/mahogany/etc. If he wants it pre-primed that's extra (and that's a lot of work that I'd be careful about bidding).
If you haven't done them, I'd sub out hanging the doors.
No mention of hardware anywhere. Who supplies? Who installs? Lots of knobs and door handles in 6300'


Rob

[Byron Trantham]

The General Contrator wants me to bid labor only - he would supply all materials. Everything is paint grade. (In his words - he doesn't want "furniture"!)

Don't kid yourself, for a house this big, the CUSTOMER expects more. Todd, I trimmed my basement and it took me four weeks. It did not have all the crown molding etc. It sounds like the guy is in a bind and expects you to get him out. Boy I am sure the money is tempting. Let us know what you decided.

[Keith Starosta]

Todd,
What these guys said!! Not knowing much about the contractor biz, I'd have to say this job ain't up to the standards you've set for yourself. If I were building a 6300 sq. foot house, I would surely bring you in to finish it, but it would be with quarter-sawn white oak (that YOU supply), and give you a damn site more than four weeks to do it.

Pass!!!!

Keith

[Dan Bussiere]

Todd,
Nah! You do better work than that. You set the standards and terms of your work and you'll be much happier. IMHO!
Dan

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Todd, I would stay far away from this one. I don't do work for other contractors at all. They can be a nightmare to work for. Remember that they typically hire unskilled cheap labor. :rolleyes:

I have a sure way to get him off the track of hiring you for the job. Take a wild guess then double it. For reference, the last time I worked for a trimmer ('96) we charged him $13k for a 4250 sq.ft. house (inclduing materials). My guess is that he had about $8k in labor for just he and I. Took us 6 weeks...many built-ins and all the trim including double crown in the LTR, DR and Den.

Wayne said he really didn't do very well on that one. He wasn't paying me a fortune so my guess is that his materials budget got a little out of whack.

Be very afraid, especially when they say they will buy the materials. Custom woodworkers like you don't need the hassles of working for a home builder.:eek:

[Glenn Clabo]

The General Contrator wants me to bid labor only - he would supply all materials. Everything is paint grade. (In his words - he doesn't want "furniture"!)

Not sure I want this one.
Todd
Todd...I think you already answered your own question? You don't do low level...quick and dirty work. Don't let the paycheck (possible) be your guide.

[Greg Heppeard]

I think I would either tell the guy I wasn't interested (If I wasn't) or charge him an hourly rate. Since he is providing the material, if you run into unusable material, it takes longer to do the job. Tell him, up front that you do quality work and would not compromise on that point, it will take as long as it takes, don't let him tie you down to 4 weeks. If you provide your own tools, I would charge anywhere from $35 to $50 per hour, I've seen pics of your work and you are worth every penny. If you have to hire a helper, he would have to pay his wages too. (Hire a guy, somebody needs to help hold the other end of that 12' piece of crown, and help hold up cabinetry)

[Jason Roehl]

Todd, I'd have to say you're entirely up to the job, with the exception of the 4-week timeframe. Obviously, a 6300s.f. house is upscale, but if all the trimwork is to be painted, the carpenter's mantra must be "the painters can fix that." While the ideal would be tight joints and minimal nail holes all around, caulk and spackle do cover a multitude of sins in adept hands (I would assume those duties would fall to the painter).

My estimation would be that this GC is looking for a crew of 2-3 who are used to slamming up trimwork for a pittance. If you aren't used to large-scale trimwork jobs, you're a week or two behind already. :D And, if you really do want to do the job, I'd bid it based on about 3 months of what you want to make labor-wise. Callbacks will be a headache. "Forgotten" details will be a headache--"oh, yeah, we need you to put in towel/tp bars, doorknobs, doorstops, ...How come you didn't clean up?...You wanted the site clean before you started?..." Not to mention, if the framers weren't very good, it will take you longer--either in fixing framing, or workarounds. Hanging a door in an opening that is not plumb, level and square is a pain, but not impossible. It can just take 1/2 hour to an hour, instead of 15 minutes.

Keep in mind, Todd, that I'm not a trim carpenter, but I've done a fair amount of it over the years. I AM a painter, however, and there are definitely some carpenters out there that I would rather work behind, and of that group, I don't recall any of them ever getting a job done very quickly.

Guess this ran a little long, but I hope it helps.

[Jim Becker]

My "warning bells" are also going off on this one, Todd... Sometimes it's best to stick with the type and quality of work you do best. Think about whether or not this is one of those times.

[Kent Cori]

Hmmm, I sense a consensus is beginning to develop here. ;)

[Scott Coffelt]

It's been a few years since I have done finish carpentry. My past bids ranged but my starting rate was $1.35/per foot for labor on basic jobs --doors, floor trim, window casing, closets, fireplaces, steps, etc.. Now I treated everything else as extras and bid them like building furniture. For example, my builders 10 years ago wanted $650 for a basic wall shelving unit (I figured about $100 or less in materials). Basic built-ins on each side of fireplace were $1500 each, get my point... they charged an arm and leg for the extras.

Now, the biggest house I did by myself was 3200 sqft with crown and built-ins. I did need to bring in some labor for the crown, but everything else was done on my own. It took me about two weeks with long days to complete.

I believe you can do this and the price is set by you, not the contractor. If you figure what it would take for labor hours including help, throw in pricing for extras (clearly defined), I don't see this as a lose. I don't see an issue with paint grade, that just means you'll be using different materials. I still treat paint grade the same as stained. All joints are coped and tight. I would say on that size house they are not looking for something that is done cheaply, but quality work. Price it the same way you would material wise for stain grade. next, what is the opportunity costs... what will you lose or give up or have to push out that would replaced by doing this work. Set your price and if the contractor thinks its too high, then so be it.

Now for the flip side, I have turned down really large jobs in the past. A trim job for basement remodel that came in around $100k with 12foot ceilings and layers of trim. It was to be two of us and I just didn't want to get into that level and stress load. I weighed the opportunity costs.

Good luck.

[Wes Bischel]

"The General Contrator wants me to bid labor only - he would supply all materials. Everything is paint grade. (In his words - he doesn't want "furniture"!)"

According to my understanding of construction jargon the translation goes something like this:

GC: "I've blown my budget already - I want someone to help me eat the overruns (i.e. work for free). I am going to buy the cheapest grade materials and let the free labor fight with it to make it presentable. I'll tell him I don't want furniture grade, but have him back to redo everything after the punch list is done - Oh, I don't pay extra for call-backs."


Gee, now that I reread this I guess I'm a wee bit jaded. Been around the construction industry too long.

Wes

[Richard Allen]

Hi Tod

I would give two prices. One would be "labor for the whole job", just like he asked for. 6300 sq feet crown and built ins would be $28,000. There are a lot of cost associated with a job like that which you would incur that have nothing to do with labor. For example you might have to pay for a lawyer to put a mechanics lien on the house when the GC doesn't pay you. Mind you that should be done at the FIRST sign of trouble as you don't want to be the 15th guy in line behind all the other liens. The other price would be:

"Tell me how much you want to spend and where you want me to start. I will tell you when you have run out of money. My rate is $55 an hour, I provide labor and tools, you provide materials. I get paid even when I have to wait for you to provide materials."

Make sure you get paid for the first batch before you do any more work. He will have a song and dance about how he doesn't have any money until he gets paid for the house. That isn't your problem it's his problem. And if he has a problem paying you then you are going to have a much bigger problem down the road.

Good Luck

[Martin Shupe]

Todd,

There is a great demand in my area for good trim carpenters. In fact, I would expect that anywhere they are building lots of new houses, there is plenty of demand. The guy who did my house (I am ashamed to say, it was only paint grade and mdf, because I couldn't afford the good stuff) was and is excellent, and he is booked months in advance.

Here's my point. If your business is fine as is, and you like what you are doing, keep doing what you like. Everyone who has seen your work, on the net or in person, knows you are an excellent craftsmen.

However, if business is slow, or you don't have a preference for the kind of woodworking you do, then perhaps you should consider trimming out houses. Why? Money and job security...

If you decide that is what you want to do, I would suggest you start with a smaller house, and not on a tight schedule. With any new type of work, there will be a learning curve, and it would be better to bid a smaller house, or maybe a couple, until you figure out how to bid accurately, and exactly how to write the contract so you don't get burned. Better to get burned once or twice on a smaller job, then to get really burned on a big job.

The guy who trimmed my house had two helpers at the time working with him. Sometimes he and one guy worked on my house, while the third guy was doing callbacks on previous jobs. Trimming is not a one man job, so you would need to consider hiring help, and all the headaches that go with it.

I have no idea how competitive the market is, i.e., if the builders can dictate prices to you or not. That would be something else to consider.

Good luck in your decision. I know, either way, you will continue to be successful.

Martin

[Jason Roehl]

"The General Contrator wants me to bid labor only - he would supply all materials. Everything is paint grade. (In his words - he doesn't want "furniture"!)"

According to my understanding of construction jargon the translation goes something like this:

GC: "I've blown my budget already - I want someone to help me eat the overruns (i.e. work for free). I am going to buy the cheapest grade materials and let the free labor fight with it to make it presentable. I'll tell him I don't want furniture grade, but have him back to redo everything after the punch list is done - Oh, I don't pay extra for call-backs."


Gee, now that I reread this I guess I'm a wee bit jaded. Been around the construction industry too long.

Wes
Beautifully rendered, Wes....if I had a nickel for everytime I've heard that song-and-dance from a GC....well, I'd have at least a couple dollars! :D

Todd, just thought of what to tell the GC: "Cheap, fast, good. You can pick only two." :D

[William OConnell]

I do this for a livin and cabinets are cabinets to be priced seperately from "Trimming out" a house. I think the builder is smoking crack if he expects it done in 4 weeks including built ins or cabinets. Maybe hes just extremely inexperienced . I can give you pricing that I use for piece work such as crown, casing,door installation etc. Outsourcing would be the only viable alternative to the timing issue ( Cabinets,builtins, etc. by others}. I do general contracting -large renovations and new home construction along with custom work for other GCs{very few}. If you work this out GET A SIGNED CONTRACT.

[Todd Burch]

Thanks to you all for your insightful feedback on this. A couple folks eluded to one of the things I was looking for, specifically, and that was how to price the different aspects. I like the "cabinets are cabinets and they get priced accordingly" and the "trim is trim and everything else is extra." If I looked at the $1.35 for the entire job, that's only $8,505 for 4 weeks, and if I had to hire, say 6 fast, good guys @ $15/hour, 8/hours a day, 6 days a week, 4 weeks, my payroll would be $17K+. That obviously won't work.

Now, if I charged $1.35 for just the baseboard, crown, window and door casings, and then charge separately for hanging doors, cabinets, bookcases, built-ins, etc..., that would have to produce a better result.

I'm not going to take this job, as I just don't know (that I know, that I know,) if I could meet his deadline. I know the CG from church, and also the homeowner from church, and they both know the quality of work that I do. (The CG even has an end table I made for him. (http://www.burchwoodusa.com/miscpix/Tables/endtable.html)) So if I agreed to his terms, I would "darn" well need to meet it.

There will be other opportunities for this type of work, and I would like to trim a house someday (before I build and trim my own!!) , I just don't think this is the right one. Not now anyway. Perhaps if it was a "big exposure" opportunity, I would consider it.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I think you're smart not to do this one Todd. I've been asked by two different car club members to GC their new homes. I politely refused both telling them that I would come in at twice what anyone else would and I even explained why. My reasoning is that I would not hire any unskilled laborers, use no OSB, MDF or Masonite and that there would be no completion date in stone. I would love to do this someday before I build my retirement home, but I am not one to cut corners or do things on a faster than realistic schedule, especially not on an friend's home.

[Jim Schmoll]

This says it all "CG from church, and also the homeowner from church". To many interconecting links. You made the correct choice.

Jim from Idyllwild CA