Shop Safety

[Kevin Arceneaux]

There have been a good many posts about it and I just would like to make a few comments. I am a Site Safety Professional for heavy industrial/commercial construction projects.

PPE - When I see a post about what to buy, I usually chip in with my 2 cents. I have been doing this a while and have found that there are certain brands out there that, IMHO, are better than others. PPE takes a beating on a jobsite. So I look for ones that do not break easily. These usually cost a bit more than others, but I prefer quality. It is also important that they fit right and are comfortable to wear. If it is uncomfortable, you probably will not wear it. It is also important to keep a few extras around. Why would you wear one and not a an extra for a visitor? Remember, you almost ALWAYS get what you pay for.

Guards and caution/warning stickers - they are there for a reason. Usually it is that someone did something, got hurt, and sued. Most of them are there to protect the user from him/herself. Leave them on.

Other safety tools - Use them. Is it really more important to save a minute or two or your fingers/eye/appendages? Push sticks rank high on this list. I know a safety guy who tried to cut the end of a finger off. A push stick would have saved me a lot of pain and grief.

Your first line in safety is the grey matter between your ears. It is important to use it. If something does not look right to you, it usually is NOT right. They same when you a struggling with something. If need be, it may be time for a 5X5. Step away at least 5 feet from what you are doing and stay away for at least five minutes. Go get a drink, check SMC for new posts, or go find SWMBO and give her a big hug and kiss. This last one it the important one. Not only will it freak him/her out a bit :D, it reminds you why safety is important.

[Chris Kennedy]

Brothers and sisters, can I get an Amen?

Kevin, I hate to say this, but I think you are preaching to the choir. When safety comes up as a topic on this forum, most responses I have seen seem to imply that everybody belongs to one of two camps. Either you believe that there is a purpose to safety equipment/measures/protocols, or as long as you concentrate hard enough, nothing will happen to you and safety equipment is for wusses.

Okay, I know that is a gross generalization. Seriously, though, look at the comments in threads about the merits of the SawStop and the arguments that is isn't necessary. Look at the recent thread (which I weighed very heavily in, I'll admit) about rip-cut safety. It seems like time and time again, a perfectly good question devolves into this. This isn't a complaint -- it is a logical outcome of the discussion.

So, let's have that discussion in a devoted thread.

One thing I would ask is this -- please don't say "well, I've always done [insert behavior] and nothing bad has ever happened." That doesn't really mean anything. In many cases, there is a very small probability of a catastrophic event occurring. If it hasn't happened to you so far (even after years or decades), generally that has no bearing on whether it will occur in the future. Also, it is a little consolation to the person who didn't beat the odds. It is a matter of comparing odds to risks. The likelihood of hurting yourself with a tablesaw is generally small under certain precautions, but the risks are generally huge. If you hurt yourself with a tablesaw, the results are generally bad.

What is it that you do that makes you safe in your practices? What protocols do you follow? What (if any) equipment do you use? What are your attitudes toward safety equipment and regulations (in the professional arena) or recommendations (as prescribed by the instruction manuals for your tools)?

Chris

[Larry James]

...Brothers and sisters, can I get an Amen?

Kevin, I hate to say this, but I think you are preaching to the choir. ...

Not so fast Chris, read what the choir has to say in this thread.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=89014

Larry

[David DeCristoforo]

Ooo. Safety. I got banned over my "contributions" to a thread on safety. Of course, I was pretty stressed out at the time. Actually, I'm pretty stressed out right now having quit smoking a short five weeks ago. But here's the thing. What might be considered "safe" by one person might seem hideously insanely dangerous to another. It might have a lot more to do with what a particular person is comfortable with than a specific rule.

PS Actually it was this thread with a link to a YouTube video showing a guy resawing wood on a shaper (with my caustic posts deleted).
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=66543&highlight=resawing+shaper
This made me cringe (and still does). Where's that chicken.....

[Kevin Arceneaux]

While I realize I am probably preaching to the choir, it appears that a couple are singing in the wrong key.

You want to give a safety guy nightmares? Go up to him and tell him "we have been doing it that way for x years and no one has been hurt."

I always want to say "yet?" And I really do not want to be around when the Laws of Nature catch up to them. I really hate doing paperwork.

[Lee Koepke]

I am looking for a better pair of safety glasses.

ones that dont fog up in the middle of a cut ....

[Larry James]

I am looking for a better pair of safety glasses.

ones that dont fog up in the middle of a cut ....

Is that with or without a dust Mask?:rolleyes:

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Kevin

Well, safety is very important but many are not paying attention to it till some accident happens and than, everybody is asking themselves; why it happened.

I'm reading (and posting) in 10 American WW forums and I've seen many, many posts about safety, blade guard, splitter and alike...I've also read many, many post of "table saw accident" and "kickbacks"...

According to Kelly Mehler.....only 5% of the American woodworkers are using the blade guard.

Yes, many woodworkers are working without the guard and, do not have any accident for 30 years or more but.....also not every soldier dies in the war that is much more dangerous field...a few will be killed but the majority will survive...and I think that the aim of the "safety" is to decrease the number of those "a few will be killed"...

If you had a chance to look at my posts about table saw (jigs or projects), you would notice that, every jig and/or operation is done with the Riving knife and the blade guard installed....Why ?....

Because I'm posting also on a UK WW forum and the "rules" (not the forum rules but, the members rules) are totally different....you try to post something that involves the removal of the riving knife, blade guard (Crown guard - in UK'ish) or anything that is against the safety regulation and....you'll get "bashed" and even be asked to remove the pictures.

It looks to me that the members in the UK forum are aware of the fact that many beginners, amateurs and "weekend warriors" are reading the posts and they are influenced by the "professionals" so we must give them the correct and safe way...

Even the TV shows (they have a few about home renovation and alike) are made with all the safety precautions as per the safety regulation....Even I am smiling sometimes and saying to myself - Jee, he is going to drill a 1/8" hole and he is dressing himself like an Astronaut for a "sky walk"....all the eye protraction and ear protection (how many dB has a cordless drill :) )

In UK, you'll not see a show like NYW that Norm is working without guard (but telling us to read and understand the instructions)...if one is telling me to use the guard - one should show me that he is using it otherwise, it's......hypocrisy?

Personally, I cannot accept any TV show, Video or picture, jig or "safety device" that are telling me "Remove the blade guard and splitter"...that's the reason that I don't accept or see the "Grrripper" as a safety device...one must not forget that when using the Grrripper, a 1"~2" or more of "Naked Blade" are spinning without any guard and waiting......

Oh yes....and I don't buy this "Blade guard removed for clarity"....I don't believe that there is even one person that works on a table saw and doesn't know what the blade is doing under the guard to the extend that, one have to remove the blade to "Show" him how the wood is severed...

Regards
niki

[Chris Kennedy]

I am looking for a better pair of safety glasses.

ones that dont fog up in the middle of a cut ....


A drop or two of Rain-X on your glasses will generally prevent this except in the most humid circumstances.

Cheers,

Chris

[Rod Sheridan]

Well said Nikki, thanks for posting your comments.

Regards, Rod.

[Greg Cole]

Safety is a mid set. You determine the risk, liablilty and the return you may see from accepting that risk or liability. It truly is up to you. And that subjectivity seems to be where the fuse on these threads is, what one accepts another will adamantly interject a contrary opinion. Fsssssttttt..... (firecracker fuse noise)..... bang.


A drop or two of Rain-X on your glasses will generally prevent this except in the most humid circumstances.

My scuba instructor taught me to spit in the mask, rub it around and rinse with water. Ya have to spit on the glass when its dry and rub it around and then rinse or it won't work.
Seriously... it works underwater anyway..... really it does.

That shaper resaw video is something I very vividly remember. Didn't know it was the spawning of Yoshikuni....;)
And good on ya for kicking the habit David!

Greg

[Stephen Tashiro]

It would be useful to know some sources of periodic reports of actual accidents that were written by experienced investigators. I recall reading the Army's monthly accident reports and it made you aware of some sad and pathetic things. Anecdotal messages from people who have cut off part of their thumb etc. are sometimes useful warnings but the quality of the reporting varies and they don't appear at regular intervals.

[Larry James]

Niki,

...According to Kelly Mehler.....only 5% of the American woodworkers are using the blade guard. ...I'm not sure how anyone can definitively say only 5% are using the blade guard. However, I would guess that number is in the ballpark. I have to admit I'm in the 95% group and I only use a splitter.


... In UK, you'll not see a show like NYW that Norm is working without guard (but telling us to read and understand the instructions)...if one is telling me to use the guard - one should show me that he is using it otherwise, it's......hypocrisy? ...Good point. And "read and understand the instructions" is meaningless considering how poorly written most instructions are, and seems to be nothing more than legal boiler plate. "Blade guard removed for clarity" is a mantra that, unlike UK woodworkers, many of us have come to accept. New TS users see so many pictures, videos, manuals, etc. with the guard removed that it appears to be standard operating procedure.

If appropriate, please post links to some UK WW sites.

My 10 fingers thank you for your insightful comments. You have convinced me to use my guard more often, but I can't promise I'll use it all the time.

Larry

PS: Also thanks to Kevin for starting this post.

[steve reeves]

I use the blade guard when ripping.... always. I also have zero clearance inserts for every blade I own and the most common bevels and dados that I cut.

It's about the only thing I do that I'm not using some jig or fixture for which precludes the use of the blade guard.

The UK comments only reinforce their further fall into the ultimate "nanny state".

The beginners that view their websites can just as easily view the rest of the sites around the world.

Eye, dust and hearing protection are put on before I ever start the first piece of machinery.

And yes I'm "one of those" who's been using a table saw for over 40 years with never so much as a splinter to show for it. A claw hammer on the other hand is a much different story.

There's not enough safety topics on most of these sites, all of us need a friendly reminder once in a while.

[Nissim Avrahami]

Thank you Rod and Larry

Larry
You are correct, I heard that the instructions that are coming with the tools are a little bit in "ChiEnlish" and it's very difficult to understand them :)

About Kelly Mehler, you can read it here (Just download the PDF - it's very interesting article by itself)
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=29509

I'm not sure if I can post a link to another WW forum so please Google - ukworkshop - and you'll find it.

Best regards
niki

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Mike

Ooops, I gave you the wrong link to Kelly Mehler article...:o

The correct one is here
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/articledisplay?id=14789

Sorry
niki

[Chuck Tringo]

Im in the 95%, I removed the very awkward bladeguard that came with my Jet Proshop, and took a jigsaw and OSS to it turning it into a low profile splitter. I do plan to order a Sharkguard and Board Buddies as soon as I get to my next duty station to remedy this however.

[Chris Kennedy]

Until recently, I was in the 95%. When I first got my TS, I kept the blade guard on for about a month. It has an asymmetric design that supposedly made it easier to slide lumber under it. I was ripping a 2 by 4, and instead of sliding over the stock, it pushed into the blade.

And thus, the guard was removed.

I worked without a guard for about two years. Of course, that left me without a splitter as well, since they were one assembly. On rips, I use featherboards on anything longer than about 24 inches, and I would use a putty knife as a splitter.

About a month ago, I couldn't stand the lack of a blade guard any more. I got an Excalibur, and I am going to be installing a MJ splitter once I am done with closing in the walls of my shop.

Cheers,

Chris

[Gordon Harner]

I too am a safety professional. For excess of 30 years. For construction companies, insurance cos. and currently as a consultant primarily for construction and construction related businesses. I think the crux of the guard/no guard decision is a function of the usefulness and design of the guard itself. In my opinion, the guarding philosophy on european designed machines has been superior to the machines designed in this country with the tablesaw as the primary example. Finally, after who knows how many years we see legitimate riving knives coming! All of the manufacturers have known of this design and unfortunately many have chosen to continue to supply guards that are just garbage. From my experience, people will not remove/defeat a guard that is effective and does not interfere with the work they are trying to do. A big concern that all of us should have is why aren't there more machines with magnetic switches (other than the bigger $ machines)? A magnetic switch, required by OSHA on stationary machines in the General industry standards but not in the Construction standards, will disconnect power to a machine if the flow of power is interrupted or is overloaded. Hence a machine will not start up if power is restored after an interruption unless the operator pushes the start button again. I don't think that anyone posting here is anti safety but I'm sure that they want safety features that help and don't impede their work.

[Peter Quadarella]

I'm ultra cautious in the shop, always unplugging things when I'm doing somethiung besides cutting, always wearing glasses, etc. But I don't think I'd laud the attitude that posts should be removed and shows won't be aired unless they follow every rule to a tee. This is nothing more than the result of an over litigious society and while safety is very important, it's not the most important thing.

[Peter Quinn]

Remember when your mom told you "If your friends wanted to jump off a bridge would you jump with them". She was right. Use your brain and make good decisions, especially around machines with warning labels.

I think we are mostly adults here. I have seen and read plenty of advise about woodworking and other topics on the web that I found to be unsafe or just plain bunk. As an adult I filter what I see with a hefty dose of skepticism. Keep what I like, lose what I don't. Is any one suggesting that those new to wood working have slipped into some strange trance where they cease to think freely and clearly and proceed to do what ever they are told? "Oh that guy on TV freehanded a scribe on an oak stair tread through a TS, think I'll try that!" Not me. That guy is missing teeth!

I work in a custom cabinet shop with seven other guys, I am by far the youngest at 38, and the average guy has more than 30 years experience with wood working machinery. I have been taught to think clearly, act slowly and with focus. You don't use a single machine until you have been thoroughly trained on its use by an experienced veteran. How many newbies follow that protocol at home? Few I'd guess. Tough way to learn.

Every guy in the shop where I work can count to ten with out removing a shoe.:D No blade guards, no splitters, no riving knives. Two machines actually had riving knives which were removed! Very few injuries, none serious. Just luck? Not. I suppose some may think we are a pack of accidents waiting to happen. Believe me when I tell you not a single guy I know that makes his living with his hands is in a hurry to lose the use of one to save a few minutes or make a extra buck.

Behind every single wood working injury I have ever heard or seen there is the story of a person that broke the rules and did something stupid. Sorry to those who have been hurt, but you screwed up and lost focus in a zero tolerance environment. Blade guards make it less likely that people will do something stupid, not impossible, but less likely. They are like an insurance policy for when your brain fails, very important for the new and the clumsy. I haven't used a TS with a blade guard in 20 years, and the only place I have every even seen them on an RAS is the Borg. Am I risking my life daily? Not hardly. A tragic injury is not inevitable with out blade guards on a TS. I am not saying throw yours away, I am just telling you that I did.

When I hear the term "push stick" I cringe. Are we playing shuffle board or are we using a TS? I make nearly every cut with a "Push Block", or guided by a jig, or power fed. A push stick is asking for pain. Sooner or later it is going to cause a problem. A push block offers far more control. Do you need a push block to rip a piece of 6/4 X 12" X 96"? Not really. How about 3/4" X 6"X 18"? Yup, there I'm going for the push block. The shorter, the thinner, the less leverage, the more likely you may lose control, the more you need a device to maintain it. A push stick is not that device, a push block is. Simple semantics? I hope so, but my 3 year old niece knows the difference between a stick and a block and I hope others do too.

I use a splitter religiously at home. At work we have a straight line rip saw to do the heavy lifting. I have a good splitter that comes off quickly for non through cuts. Once in a while, sooner or later you may push a piece of wood into the saw that has all kinds of tension stored up just waiting to get you. What does reaction wood look like? I have no idea until I have cut it. How about case hardened stock? I still have no idea, but that millisecond when you realize you are cutting it is frightening. That's where the knee kick comes in. Keep your composure, shut it down quick, stop pushing the wood forward, DON'T LET GO OF THE WOOD! Simple rules.

I find it hard to believe so many find it hard to believe that mental focus is the primary safety device the wood worker has. Of course very inexperienced wood workers may not know what to focus on or when. THe first machine I ever used was my grandfathers band saw to make a pine wood derby car. I was 9. The band saw is not safe, but it is very predictable, cuts move slowly and may be stopped at will without danger, and they don't kick back. He taught me to watch the blade, position my body so I was forced to stare at the line it made, and to be aware of where my hands were at all times. If you see your hands getting even close to that blade, stop, adjust, walk away, just don't keep going. That is insanity. Simple rules: don't put your hand into the blade. Yet there are posts here on the Creek of guys that have maimed themselves with band saws. Maybe they weren't using a blade guard?

I won't ever make fun of a guy who uses the blade guard. His or her shop, their work, their comfort and experience level, their call. Many very experienced wood workers use them. But I will also not accept the suggestion that working without them is innately foolish and incredibly dangerous. Please try to move past that thinking.

Oh, that vid of the shaper spinning the saw blade? I won't tell that guy how to build guitars, but you won't ever catch me working like that. I do use hoods, fences and guards on the shaper as necessary.

[John Thompson]

I worked from 1972-1975 with a circular under a table and an L piece of aluminum for a fence. Then a contractor saw until I took the blade guard off of. Cabinet saws since with the guard off till the mid 80"s. I did use push sticks as I was taught in HS shop in the early 60"s but that was it.

Then one day I attended some training sessions from some Euro WW including Ian Kirby. I now make my own safety devices which include a short fence.. crown guard.. dust shield.. spring-board and push sticks. And I use them and if you come to my shop to do any work... you will too while you are there. Always in my shop...

I believe everyone should be trained in safety. Then and only then.. they can use their common sense as an adult as to how they want to approach it. It they want to stand on their head on a tight wire over there saw to rip after they have been versed in safety... go right ahead as it is the individuals responsibility and I am not liable for them.

I been on the recieved end of kick-back as I work 6-10 hours a day in a shop. And I would and do resent an attitude that labels me scared of my machines or not very macho for using safety devices I make for litterally nothing. I respect them and ac-know-ledge the fact they can bite me if I don't use devices at my diposal and render good judgement while operating them....

But Scare me... Not a lot scares me..... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

Sarge..

[Peter Quinn]

I love that fence Sarge. Brilliant idea. Gonna copy that one.

That push stick scares me though. In fact its on the short list of things that do. I figure if a board starts pinching the back of the blade, regardless of fence type or splitter (yes I have seen this, not theoretical), and this happens near the end of a cut on a shorter piece, your only control of the board is at a point AT LEAST 10 INCHES from the point where the kick back is occurring. I see how a push stick keeps your finger away from the blade, but how does it possibly help control the work in a worst case scenario?

MPQ

[Peter Quadarella]

How about push sticks with bandsaws? It's the only place I do use one, but then I don't own a table saw. I also use blocks sometimes, and always blocks on my router table.

[Kevin Arceneaux]

It lets you move out to the side away from the projected path of the kickback

[John Thompson]

I love that fence Sarge. Brilliant idea. Gonna copy that one.

That push stick scares me though. In fact its on the short list of things that do. I figure if a board starts pinching the back of the blade, regardless of fence type or splitter (yes I have seen this, not theoretical), and this happens near the end of a cut on a shorter piece, your only control of the board is at a point AT LEAST 10 INCHES from the point where the kick back is occurring. I see how a push stick keeps your finger away from the blade, but how does it possibly help control the work in a worst case scenario?

MPQ

Thank you on the short fence, Peter. Now on how which I am glad you asked as when I decide to do something there is a reason. I quit drinking many years ago. :)

First... you are absolutely correct about the fact a board can pinch the splitter. The splitter I have is custom made and only has about 1mm clearance on each side under the width of the blade thanks to Lee Styrone of Shark Guard who built the splitter itself for me.

But even then it can happen expeically if you run into a very high tension piece of reaction stock (energy waiting to be released when severed). But.. the short fence does work in conjunction with an acurately sized splitter or riving knife. The wood is severed completely always before the tail reaches center tooth of blade. The tail end of a short fence does not go beyond center tooth so there is no fence for the leading piece of stock to rebound off of past that point as there is with a long fence.

But.. still it can happen even with both splitter-riving knife working together with short fence. I use the spring-broad to block left.. the fence blocks right and my home-made Crown gaurd blocks going up. The only place left for the stock to go is rear-ward toward the operator or forward away from the operator in what is referred to as The Lane. Hence the expression KEEP THE LANE CLEAR UNTIL THE BLADE QUITS SPINNING.

The fact is in that rare scenario where the rear could under harsh conditions pinch the dangerous "rear rising teeth" the push stick cannot control it and probably only an act of God can.

But in my set-up.. we have blocked left.. we blocked right.. we have opened a free zone past the blade on fence side and we have blocked going straight up with the Crown gaurd. So.. it litterally has to go front and rear following the Lane.

LET It do that as you are clear of the lane and your hand is on the push stick well away from the path. I also have my work-bench sitting directly behind my TS with twin screw vise on the end. I clamp a piece of scrap stock in the vise that a piece that flys rear-ward will contact. In essence a target that keeps it from traveling the distance of the shop. I have a hole in the rear sheet rock wall from before I started doing that.

IMO.. you will never be in 100% control of a kick-back but.. if you control the direction it can go and you are not in the path... you put yourself in about as good of a position as you can be. I had much ruin a piece of stock and avoid injury than vs versa.

And if you need a demo of how to rip up to 14' stock alone with a maximum of safety.. I can get pictures of that as I do if relatively often.

"Rose's have thorns and silver fountains mud".. William Shakespear

Regards...

Sarge..

[John Thompson]

It lets you move out to the side away from the projected path of the kickback

Ya da man... Kevin! See last post with pictures to Peter I just posted...

Regards...

Sarge..