Is a radial arm saw dangerous?

[Jerry Booher]

Occasionally I see a reference to a RAS being a dangerous tool. For 30 years I had a Craftsman as my only stationary power tool. Used it to build a dining table with mitered rip joints, work bench with drawers and when a tornado blew the roof off my house I did all the repairs. Lots of crosscuts, but also included ripping 900' of 2x12s to provide for drainage off the roof.

I know I am unaware of some things and must be oblivious to potential danger. What almost happened to me that I never saw? Am I a really lucky guy? :eek:

Just curious. Craftsman recalled the saw for safety reasons and I opted for $100 instead of a repair kit so I could buy a SawStop table saw and a 12" DeWalt CMS. I thought that would make me a more precise woodworker. Still trying.

Jerry

[Jim O'Dell]

I personally don't think that it is any more dangerous than any other power tool. Like all of them, you have to use your head for more that something to bounce wood pieces off of. :eek: :rolleyes:. I built a complete set of kitchen cabinets with one. I would draw the line at the moulding head cutters. I used mine once, and put it right back in the package. I still have it, but it will never be used. Scary thing, that hunk of metal.
That RAS bit the dust cutting Pavestone wall block. :D But I do have my Dad's even older Craftsman RAS. I've got it hooked up, but doubt that I'll find a reason to use it...unless I have some more retaining wall to build. :D
On a similar note, I was in Home Depot the other day, and glanced at their big RAS they cut customer wood with. A Delta, 14" I'm guessing. It had a box with slots for the blade to ride in, and a ratcheting hold down of sorts on either side of the box to push the wood against the fence. It made the blade where you couldn't even see it. (that's why I'm guessing it was 14") Looked incredibly safer than even the Emerson guard that was part of the recall. Jim.

[Joe Jensen]

I personally don't think that it is any more dangerous than any other power tool. Like all of them, you have to use your head for more that something to bounce wood pieces off of. :eek: :rolleyes:. I built a complete set of kitchen cabinets with one. I would draw the line at the moulding head cutters. I used mine once, and put it right back in the package. I still have it, but it will never be used. Scary thing, that hunk of metal.
That RAS bit the dust cutting Pavestone wall block. :D But I do have my Dad's even older Craftsman RAS. I've got it hooked up, but doubt that I'll find a reason to use it...unless I have some more retaining wall to build. :D
On a similar note, I was in Home Depot the other day, and glanced at their big RAS they cut customer wood with. A Delta, 14" I'm guessing. It had a box with slots for the blade to ride in, and a ratcheting hold down of sorts on either side of the box to push the wood against the fence. It made the blade where you couldn't even see it. (that's why I'm guessing it was 14") Looked incredibly safer than even the Emerson guard that was part of the recall. Jim.

I have the same saw, without the giant safety box. The orange borg recently added that safety mechanism. Great for construction cuts, but I do precisions stuff with mine and that would never do :)

[Steve Clardy]

Yes
No
Depends on who you talk to, and their experiences with a RAS.

Personally, for the most part, I say no. Not any more dangerous than other saws.

I use one for rough cutting lumber to length.

I'll never rip lumber with one. I saw that done once, and decided it wasn't for me.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Am I a really lucky guy? :eek:


Jerry

Yes. Very lucky.
I called SEARS 18 years ago and I told them to take their junk
out of peoples hands.
That did it... :rolleyes:15 years later.:mad:

[Dave Cav]

I've been using one for around 25 years. I started out with an old Wards and used it for years. About five years ago I got a 10" Delta. I would love to have a 14" DeWalt or Original Saw Company saw, but can't justify the expense.

Early on I tried ripping with the Wards RA'S and had some ugly kickbacks. I could rip large pieces of plywood fairly well, but ripping solid stock was scary, and I soon quit trying to rip anything with it.

I use mine all the time, mostly for regular crosscutting. I can't remember the last time I did miter cuts with it; mostly I use the table saw for miter work, unless it's framing, then I use the chop saw. Mostly I use it for rough crosscutting stock prior to milling; if I have a number of pieces all the same length, I will set up a stop and use it for the final crosscutting, too. I also use it a lot for joinery. I just did a number of M&T joints. I cut all the initial shoulder cuts with the RA'S, then used the table saw to cut out the cheeks (using a home made tenon cutter that slides on the fence); then used the band saw to cut the short shoulders. I also use it for lap and bridle joints. If I was a finish carpenter or did interior cabinet and trim work I would probably use a SMCS on the job site because they are much easier to set up for miter cuts, but that's not normally the type of work I do.

Ripping aside, I don't think a RAS is any more or less safe than any other power saw. The important thing is to always be aware of where the blade is, use the right blade to minimize self feeding, always push the blade ALL the way back when finishing a cut, and paying attention to where your hands and fingers are at all times. We use a SCMS in my shop at school, and I'm getting used to it, although I still prefer a RAS. However, all the other shop teachers are convinced that a radial arm saw in a high school shop is about as safe as an open drum of fuming nitric acid, so we'll probably never get one. That's too bad, because most of the commercial cabinet shops I know of have at least one, usually a 14 or 16" model, for dimensioning stock.

[Peter Luch]

I started working at 19 on large commercial buildings in L.A. and went through the union apprentice program.

We used on all jobsites the very large RAS that is on wheels and you tow behind a truck. Used one of these for years and on one job that was all I ever did every day.
Ripping plywood and also making wedges out of 2x4's.

Never felt it was dangerous, never felt any "tool" was more or less dangerous.
I always felt the most dangerous thing on a job was other people.
Of the three times I was hurt bad not one was from a tool but all were from another worker.

I picked up one about 3 months ago from a guy who sold it for $30!!!!
He said he wanted it out of his shop because he was scared to use it. He should stay away from ANY power tool LOL

Go figure.......

Aloha, Pete

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Jerry,
For rip cuts, I think it's more dangerous than most other home woodshop machines. For crosscuts and dados, it's pretty safe as long as you abide by two rules: (1) Never put your hand in the line of the sawblade's path, and; (2) Ensure the fence is tall enough when dadoing thick stock.

I received the new retrofit guard for my Sears saw. I don't see the improvement, nor thought that an improvement was needed over the original guard.

-Jeff :)

[Gary J Belch]

My LOML purchased new in 1968 a Dewalt 7740 10" RAS. This machine has been a true work horse. I've only used two elevation belts and this week plan on installing a new set of Yoke bearings. First time after 40 years. Had a problem with the bevel lock but thanks to some fine folks we were able to get the right configeration of parts for the bevel latch level etc. Thanks Dana!!!
If you stop and think out your next cut, don't take for granted the boards won't kick back, always use commom sense and keep your free hand away from the path and return path of the blade you should be fine. Learn to respect the machine.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Of course it is.
It has a motor, a blade, and can be used wrongly and things can go wrong.
In those respects it's like most other saws
So yes it's dangerous.

But really the operator is what is dangerous.

[Rod Sheridan]

I like Cliff's comments, of course it's dangerous, it's a power tool.

My two complaints with radial arm saws are;

- ripping, an absolute no no in my book.

- cross cutting, since the cuts are esentially climb cuts under hand feed, they are always dangerous.

When I worked in industry, we had many swing saws for cross cutting rough lumber, they also are a climb cut, the difference was that they had cylinders that controlled the rate of swing, so that the saws couldn't climb up over the work. We also had radial arm saws, however they were all replaced following accidents with experienced operators.

Many people, through careful, safe operation of radial arm saws have a perfect safety record.

The safety record of radial arm saws however hasn't been that great, due to the basic problems of ripping, and climb cutting.

So from a design standpoint, is the saw dangerous, yes, more so than a table saw for ripping, or a mitre saw for cross cutting.

There are safer alternatives out there.


Regards, Rod.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

No more dangerous than any powered saw with a circular blade. The most dangerous tool in a shop is an operator that is not educated in the proper use of a machine, whether it's a table saw, jointer, drill press, radial arm, or fill in the blank. Proper use of a RAS includes the following:

Starting with a solidly built machine
A flat table and a good fence
Good machine alignment in all axis
Using a proper blade
Using the guards
Cutting only stock that has a flat face to put on the table, and a straight edge to put against the fence
An educated operator
With these things, a RAS is a fine tool, and as safe as any IMHO.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Actually, the proper terminology is that it is 'hazardous'. Only when used improperly does it become 'dangerous'.

Nothing in your home shop or workplace should ever be dangerous.

-Jeff :)

[Jack Vines]

The best safety feature on a RAS is that big blade spinning right in line with your nose. Helps keep the attention focused. Per hour of use, there are more injuries with jointers and shapers. This is because the little cutter is spinning so fast it is invisible and once the stock is fed into it, the cutting edge is down under the work and out of sight.

FWIW, The RAS was my only stationary tool for many years. I've used it for every conceivable cut; ripping, mitering, cross-cutting, shaping, dadoing, sanding and planing. Now, its mostly used for cross-cutting. Even though I have a sliding table saw, the RAS is perfect for laying a 16' 4"x4" up there, putting the blade exactly on the line and getting a square face, the stock not moving or having to be controlled until the blade is out of the way and I can use both hands to deal with it.

Those toy "SCMS" are OK for on-the-job-site trim, but I'll always prefer a well-tuned commercial-duty RAS for real wood work.

thnx, jack vines

[Lee Schierer]

As others have said all power tools can be dangerous if used improperly. Because of the price and offered benefits, the RAS became quite popular and was a first power tool for many woodworkers. It was also distributed through a chain store that many people frequented. My Dad purchased one for his first saw and worked on it many years without a problem that I can recall or know of.

Ripping on one is where most people go wrong. The trick with ripping is to get the tips of the teeth beyond the bottom of the cut and to use the splitter and anti kick back pawls that came on the saw. This means you have to bury the teeth into the wood table. The early saws had a curved groove cut across the table just for this purpose, but that feature disappeared on later versions. If you don't get the teeth below the wood surface you run a high risk of a kick back. A proper rip cut requires the blade guard to be rotated so that the front edge just cleared the wood on the infeed side to prevent the board froam raising up and then lower the kick back pawls and round splitter so they were engaged on the outfeed side of the wood. You also had to make sure the carriage swivel, tilt and slide were all properly tight and locked down. Leaving any one of them loose would lead to binding.

The other major mistake was using blades without negative tooth rake. However, it should be noted that this tooth feature was not available until later on after the saws were introduced and people were sitching to carbide tipped blades.

I still have mine but it doesn't see much use as the TS is generally faster and more accurate for most cut set ups.

[Shawn Honeychurch]

Every tool out there is dangerous, if you don't know how to use it properly, if you do not show it proper respect, if you are not careful.

Every tool out there is safe, if you know how to use it properly, if you show it proper respect, if you are careful.

Shawn

[peter leyden]

The companies that made and sold RAS's did all users a disservice by including with a brand new RAS the worst blade possible. The Craftsman, for example, came with a blade with a huge positive rake! No wonder people got scared when they made their first cuts. The saw wanted to climb right over the wood being cut. Given the right blade,(negative rake) there is very little tendency for the blade to self feed. As for ripping, I have been there, done that, but a table saw is my weapon of choice for that operation.
The blade I use now I bought from Mike Jackson(search for his name on this site). If you call him and tell him your application he will recommend a blade for you.The blade i got was top grade and very reasonable.
Pete Leyden

[Harry Niemann]

I've had my Craftsman RAS for 40 years, and have never had a problem. The most important rule is to use a blade with negative hook. To determine this,draw a line from the center of the mounting hole to the perimeter. The leading edge of the tooth should be parallel to the line or lean slightly backward from the line. This reduces the tendency for the teeth to grab the material and pull into it.

[Andy Korfin]

I've been suprised by the level of "fear" that seems to be associated with RAS. This includes a talk I had with an oldewr WW'r at a garage sale last weekend. The RAs seems to have a negative reputation. Not that it would be wise to not give ANY power tool the proper respect. I'm a newbie and the first tool I bought was an old DeWalt 7740. So far there have been no incidents, but I do have to say that using my TS without the blade guard get my heart moving much faster then the RAS.

Thanks to those who supplied the info on blade/positive tooth rake this may be one of the reason for my safe operation of the RAS.

Andy

[Fred Strumpf]

My Craftsman RAS saw was my primary power tool for years. I did everything on it including ripping and some sophisticated joinery off fixtures.

I must admit I have moved all ripping operations to my tablesaw. Not just because I have one, but I did launch a few pieces of lumder across the room when ripping on my RAS.

I won't give up my RAS, but I have learned what is appropriate for it.

Regards

Fred

[Jack Coats]

I used a Wards 10" RAS for years till it burned up when the barn it was in burned.
That saw is really missed.

Given I never had enough room for a table saw or place to use it, the RAS was great
and was kept at the side of a garage where I could pull the car out and move the saw
if I needed to rip anything.

Whenever I did ripping, it was ALWAYS with someone else assisting. So I guess that
would be better on a TS. The most I ripped was plywood or 2x4's.

Where we live now there is a chop/miter saw available with a big bench (but the saw
is not attached to the bench and moves around, and it is not adjusted to the right
height for the table either ... makes it hard to use accurately. But the folks that own it
just use it for rough cuts at best. From what I have seen, it has functionally replaced
much of what folks used to use RAS for.

Personally I would love to have another RAS, and I do not consider it safer or more
dangerous that any other saw, just different. ALL saws are dangerous if you do not
respect and take care of them.

I wonder if the reputation of RAS being dangerous is due to lack of training, safety
considerations, or bad technique on the part of the users? Probably a question none of
us can answer.

[Bill White]

Yes. Very lucky.
I called SEARS 18 years ago and I told them to take their junk
out of peoples hands.
That did it... :rolleyes:15 years later.:mad:


Oh Well!!!!
I bought mine in 1978. Still have all the fingers, eyes, etc. and the saw.
Just got my first TS last year, and am now feeling good about it.
Any of this stuff will hurt ya badly if ya act stupid.
Ever stuck your finger in a hot glue pot? I did. ONCE!!! :D
Bill

[Leo Graywacz]

It's only dangerous if you plug it in and flip the switch on. ;)

Shouldn't be any more dangerous than any other saw. Just follow normal safety procedures and common sense and you should be safe.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I use mine very day that I work in the shop. Like any other tool that has a blade it can be dangerous if misused, but are they dangerous?...I say no.

[Brian Weick]

YES! old technology and very unpredictable~ for cross cuts~ not so bad, for ripping~ that is a different operation all together~ unpredictable and can be dangerous, that's why I sold mine last year~ ? in my opinion ~ I would have to say nay on this one.
Brian

[Chris Cordina]

I've heard that RAS do more damage than table saws. So they get a bad reputation as being more dangerous. That is because once they bite they don't want to let go. A table saw will just cut the apendage off, a cleaner cut.

[eric auer]

I've heard that RAS do more damage than table saws. So they get a bad reputation as being more dangerous. That is because once they bite they don't want to let go. A table saw will just cut the apendage off, a cleaner cut.


Not quite sure I understand what you mean.

If you google table saw injuries, some of the images are quite horrid, no clean cuts at all.

I dont understand why the blade on a RAS would "not let go".

[Brian Weick]

Eric,
The RAD cuts up and will continue to pull up on the material. Everyone has there +/- to every tool ~ understandable. but with a good CMS and TS ~ there is no need for the RAD ~ the other issue is the footprint that they take up in your shop. I have my CMS on a utility vehicle and is stored in my shop taking up 2sq ft of space vs a 4' x what ever length you make the bed ends .
Some people swear by RAD's ~ some don't ~ but in my opinion, I would rather be safe than sorry.
Brian

[Al Rose]

If you have or have had a RAS that cuts up then I understand your apprehension. A good quality and properly tuned RAS cuts down on the wood and pulls it toward the fence. I can crosscut a board with my Dewalt MBF without holding it and the board doesn't move. I don't recommend doing it that way, but it can be done. I have a CSMS and a good table saw, but I still find a lot of uses for my RAS.

[Craig McCormick]

I got my first Dewalt RAS for my Birthday when I turned 15. I built a lot of the furniture still in our home today with that saw. Anyone that says ripping on a RAS is dangerous is wrong. They either don't know how to set it up or as I have witnessed several times sending the stock through the wrong way. The saw was eventually moved up to the family cabin and then sold during mom and pops big divorce wars of 2004. Damn.....I lost my Inca bandsaw then too.

AZCRAIG

[eric auer]

Eric,
The RAD cuts up and will continue to pull up on the material.
Brian


I still dont get it, except for the fact that it could send stuff flying, I cant see a difference from lets say a chopsaw that would suck your hand down and in compared to up and in, no way the damage done by one or the other could be much different.

Sorry I dont mean to harp on the subject, it just dont make any sense.

Eric