Kreg Jig Newbe, help please

[Joe Jensen]

Hi, I just purchased a Kreg K3 Master set to do face frames. I've read a ton of posts from satisfied users and I'm getting marginal results so I must be doing something wrong.

I set the jig for 3/4" material and the holes look right, correct depth, and the screws come out in the center of the end of the board.

I clamp the frames together with the Kreg clamp and drive the screws. It all looks great until I take the clamp off. Once the clamp is off, the faces start to shift a little, and I get about 1/32" of slip, making the faces no longer even. I tried an end clamp to ensure the joint was tight before screwing, and I get the same thing.

I may have to use the Domino to do this, but I really wanted the quick Kreg thing to work.
Any suggestions? Thanks...joe

[glenn bradley]

Creep can come from screw-jacking if the improper screws are used. There should be no threads traversing the joint. That is, a proper screw for a given material and joint will have threads in the target piece and the bare shaft extending through the joint.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/images/pages/Pocket-Hole-Joint.jpg

[Joe Jensen]

I adjusted the bit to cut a little deeper than Kreg suggests so no threads are in the drilled piece. Tried a new joint, and all was well until I gently twisted to check strenth. Lots of strength when racking, but the gentle twist cause the joint to slip again. Do folks use glue or something, or am I expecting face frames to be stronger than they need to be?

[glenn bradley]

If you're doing face frames are you using the two narrow guides and placing two screws? Although the promotional stuff you read says you don't have to, I've never tried a joint without glue so I can't comment. McFeely's sells screws (http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0812-SPR/Super-8-Pocket-Hole-Dry-Lube-Screws) that are great for pocket holes using the recommended depth of hole.

[richard poitras]

I worked in a cabinet shop for a few years and we made all our face frames with pocket holes construction (two screws) and we glued the joint before they were screwed (just regular white or carpenters glue) good luck…

[Russell Tribby]

Joe, FWIW I always use two screws and glue the joint.

[Joe Scharle]

I'm fairly new to the Kreg system as well. I was having mis-alignment problems until I used the clamp with the prong on one end. The camming action of the Kreg screws would overcome the 2 pad clamp and the pieces would be slightly offset when pressure was released. Since I learned that fact, I've built 3 large bookcases and 4 cabinets with the Kreg system without glue. Time will tell, but they were rock solid when they left here.

[Rick Gifford]

My guess is you are using the wrong screws. Yours are too long.

[Joe Jensen]

My guess is you are using the wrong screws. Yours are too long.

I did not try glue. I am using the 1 1/4" screws that came with the kit. Kreg says those are the screws for 3/4" material. This was a test with narrow stock, maybe 1 1/2" wide, and the narrow spacing for the screws. I take it that you do not use glue, and have no aligment issues?

[Joe Jensen]

I'm fairly new to the Kreg system as well. I was having mis-alignment problems until I used the clamp with the prong on one end. The camming action of the Kreg screws would overcome the 2 pad clamp and the pieces would be slightly offset when pressure was released. Since I learned that fact, I've built 3 large bookcases and 4 cabinets with the Kreg system without glue. Time will tell, but they were rock solid when they left here.

I'm not familiar with a prong clamp. I'm using the 2 pad vise grip style clamp that came with the K3 Master Kit.

The more I look at this, I can't see how the frames would not slip some without glue.

[Ted Baca]

Joe how much is protruding out of the board? Did you set the depth collar correctly? That is the first thing that comes to my mind when I read your problem. Maybe the shoulder of the pocket hole is letting the screw go down to deep in which will make a weak joint if you decided to use a shorter screw. These are incredibly strong joints once you get the set up done. I love mine.

[Joe Jensen]

I have the jig set for 3/4" material. I am using 3/4" material. I have the depth stop set to 3 9/16" which is the depth Kreg specifies.

None of Kreg's instruction manual suggested glue. I assumed these were dry fit so on my test pieces I didn't use glue.

I just did the face frame now, with glue and pocket screws. It looks like the glue will prevent the slip problem I had.

Having said that, the face frame was simple, but long. It was 7.5 feet wide with only three vertical members. Setting the face clamp, and an end clamp was fussy. Getting the horizontal alignment mark, the face clamp, and the end clamp all aligned was a 3 handed job.

I am not sure I want to keep the Kreg jig. I think the Domino is faster, and it guarentees the alignment in both directions.

If one needs to clamp the end and the face to prevent slipping while the glue grabs, what's the advantage of the pocket screw approach?

[Billy Dodd]

Joe,
Are you tightening the screws all the way. I know it sounds dumb but the first one's I did didn't quite fit all the way closed. I even tried to push a little harder with the drilldriver on one of my first attemps and it slipped out and drove halfway through my hand. (That was a trip to the ER, but that's another story) Now I don't have any problem with them. I just tighten the clamp and make sure I can push on the screw to get a good connection with the allen wrench. No glue is needed. by the time I put 8 screws in a faceframe with no glue you can't twist it or rack it. And it's fast.

I would keep practicing to see what's going on. The fine screws are for solid wood and the coarse is for plywood. It should make a completely solid joint with or without glue.

[Joe Jensen]

Joe,
Are you tightening the screws all the way. I know it sounds dumb but the first one's I did didn't quite fit all the way closed. I even tried to push a little harder with the drilldriver on one of my first attemps and it slipped out and drove halfway through my hand. (That was a trip to the ER, but that's another story) Now I don't have any problem with them. I just tighten the clamp and make sure I can push on the screw to get a good connection with the allen wrench. No glue is needed. by the time I put 8 screws in a faceframe with no glue you can't twist it or rack it. And it's fast.

I would keep practicing to see what's going on. The fine screws are for solid wood and the coarse is for plywood. It should make a completely solid joint with or without glue.

I may not be clear. The joint is tight, really tight. If I do a test joint, with no glue, and I take it out of the face clamp it's prefectly aligned and tight. I get the joint a little twist to see how tight it was (my first ever Kreg joint), and the parts moved which surprised me. Are they moved, I couldn't get the faces aligned again (because the screws were so tight). I don't think smaller face frames would be an issue, but this one was 7.5ft wide and 34" tall with only 3 vertical members. This makes the final frame flex when handled, and I was worried that this flexing would cause the joints to slip.

I read a good review/tutorial on the web and they poster there suggested that the pilot hole for the screw is the outside diameter of the threads, and that allows the joint to slip a bit. This seems to have been my experience. That tutorial said to put glue on the end of the frame member, and to clamp the joint tight until the glue grabbed. I think this worked pretty well. I only had the face clamp on long enough to put some glue on the next joint. Before I removed the face clamp, I put on an end clamp to hold a little longer once the face clamp was removed. BTW, the author of that web article really liked the Kreg jig.

I used his approach last night and the results were good.

[Gene Michael]

I experienced some alignment problems until I did the following
(1) Clamped the two pieces tight by using the Kreg clamp across the joint, and
(2) Pulling the pieces together tightly with a pipe clamp.

[Burt Alcantara]

I have a similar problem. I made a resaw fence for my bandsaw out of 3/4 MDF. Putting the pieces together dry on the TS top showed they were dead flat against a Swanson speed square. I clamped 2 angle braces and verified I had 90 degrees. I attached the prong clamp and still remained integral.

After fastening with Kreg screws and took off the clamps, I was no longer 90 degrees. I redrilled the other side of the fence and attached again. Still off.

I ended up glueing the pieces together with no clamps of any kind. The fence is a perfect 90 degrees.

For most of the other work I do I don't need to be that accurate but at Woodcraft, their demo pieces were all perfect.

I've only used this jig a few times. I like it but cant trust it for 100% accuracy.

Burt

[Joe Jensen]

I experienced some alignment problems until I did the following
(1) Clamped the two pieces tight by using the Kreg clamp across the joint, and
(2) Pulling the pieces together tightly with a pipe clamp.

This is what I did, plus glue. Do you use glue? I somehow expected the pocket screws to be way faster, and I'm no longer sure there is a time savings.

Am I the only one who thinks aligning the two boards and clamping with only two hands is challenging?

[Peter Gregory]

I would stop giving it a little twist, seems like that is the problem. Once you attach a face frame, to the frame, it will be tight and strong. There aren't too many single screws that are going to deal with a twist. If you want to twist it, use two screws. Kind of reminds me of twisting a book shelf, before the 1/4" back is on.

Sounds very frustrating.

[Joe Jensen]

I would stop giving it a little twist, seems like that is the problem. Once you attach a face frame, to the frame, it will be tight and strong. There aren't too many single screws that are going to deal with a twist. If you want to twist it, use two screws. Kind of reminds me of twisting a book shelf, before the 1/4" back is on.

Sounds very frustrating.

Two screws, not a single screw. The twist I did was rotating the member, not trying to take it out of 90 degrees. I was testing a twist because this face frame is a center frame that will not attach to anything else in the cabinet, and it will have two raised panel doors, 17 wide and 32 tall hangig off it. I have now assembled the final face frame using two screws and glue. I will not twist the final frame. If you think I'm living dangerously with this design, I will add a backer behind the frame element to strengthen it.

[Larry James]

Joe, I'v had good results with the Kreg jig, clamp and screws for face frames.

After drilling the holes,

>I clamp one board to the bench (on an angle) and allow it to hang over a few inches past the pocket holes.

>I always use glue and never less than 2 screws on a face frame.

>I line up the second board, but do not clamp it to the bench.

>I use the Kreg clamp to hold the joint together and check for square.

>I drive in the screws being careful not to over-tighten. Just watch the joint pull together and glue squeeze out.

>I usually check the screws with a 6" square drive screwdriver. This takes extra time, but I like to know if the screws are tight. As a wild guess I find about 1 out of every 5 screws that needs to be tightened a little with the screwdriver.

The Kreg jig is not a magic tool, but with patience, practice and experimenting it can be very useful - it's not just for face frames - I find new uses for it all the time.

Also see: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=35147

Larry

[Peter Gregory]

Hi Joe -

I think two screws will do it, don't think I would be worried about a free standing piece.