Mike Morgan Lumber - Caveat emptor

[John Dodson]

Part of the forum experience is exchanging information about vendors. I realize that Mike Morgan Lumber is a sponsor here at SC and being a recent member that is one of the reasons I used Mike to order his lumber (administrators are welcome to review my PMs -- other emails and phone calls were used as well). That and his website billing himself as someone who caters to the individual woodworker and small business owner. However, I did not find that the case, and I think I should pass on that folks should be careful when dealing with Mike. I did eventually get satisfaction in the form of a partial refund for lumber not shipped but paid for. But only after 6 weeks of trying and only after letting him know that my patience had run out in no uncertain terms. I will say the "Cherry Pack" I did receive from him was very nice, (but about 7 bf short). Needless to say, he has lost my future business.

Thanks,
John

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Would the accused like to take the stand & defend himself?

[Michael Morgan]

I will take the stand!

John ordered a 200 b.f cherry pack and 100 b.f qswo, I have several of the cherry packs on pallets ready to go. I shipped the cherry pack and forgot to add the qswo (totally my fault) he let me know when he picked up the order that he was very happy with the cherry but there was no qswo (as I said my fault) I told him I would ship the qswo. I shipped an order to a guy in Abilene Tx, and another to Victoria Tx, John called me to see if I shipped his order to Elpaso I said yes but was wrong, I didn't ship an order to Elpaso I sent orders to other people in Texas not him, This upset John, understandably (and he let me know that) and said he just wanted his money back for the QSWO so the next day I pay pal'd him a full refund for the price of the qswo and for the shipping of the qswo. John then sent me an e-mail after I sent him the refund telling me he got the money, but I could still tell he was upset. I responded with an e-mail (That wasn't meant to sound sarcastic but was taken that way) asking what I could do and if he wanted more money or what I could do to make him happy. As I always say the problem with e-mails is you can't always understand a persons tone, and it sometimes comes across the wrong way.

As I said on the phone today John I am sorry, and if can do anything to finish this on a good note just let me know.

I have nothing further your Honor!

[John Keeton]

Juror #1 votes for dismissal. Accused has acknowledged guilt, made recompense, stepped forward with humility, and faced public disgrace. Now, Mike, what about the curly maple we emailed about last week?? Price, etc.

[Michael McCoy]

I don't know about a jury (and I've lost track of exactly how many orders in the last couple of years) but I've had right at 4 shipments plus one he delivered in the last year for right at 1000 BF of lumber. Never a problem and I always got more than expected. I have absolutely no qualms about telling Mike what I want and fully expect to receive what I asked for (and usually better).

[Michael Short]

John and Mike,

I do not know either of you but I do work in a service oriented field as my day job. Our business is built on client satisfaction and word of mouth and we do very well as a result, however we also run in to from time to time when something goes wrong and we always try and resolve the issue.

Over the past few years we have had a couple of times that no matter how hard we tried we lost the business and it justs seems like Murphy's law hits when we get a situation where timing or deadline or just getting it right just keeps going wrong and more wrong. We even wait for the little black cloud to move on. Most of the time misunderstandings can be resolved using a good means of communication.

Now on the the email issue. It is a very poor way to communicate when one or both parties are anixous or upset. We spend many hours training our employees not to read into and email, put tone to it or get hung up on punctuation as you might make it work.

I have seen many frustrations and hurt feelings come out of reading tone in an email and then reacting to it in another email. Anyway the more that I work in a customer service field the more I find that I am willing to have more patience on understanding when I am the either side of the fence as the customer service or as the customer myself.

There are times when enough is enough and you just have to move on but I try not to make that judgment on a one time bad deal. I hope this all come out great in the end for the both of you. Have a great day..

[Mark Rios]

Juror #1 votes for dismissal. Accused has acknowledged guilt, made recompense, stepped forward with humility, and faced public disgrace. Now, Mike, what about the curly maple we emailed about last week?? Price, etc.

Juror #2 agrees with Juror #1. Sounds like the accused has done all he can to remedy an inadvertent error.

From ALL the posts about Mr. Morgan and his lumber sales over the past few years I don't recall there being ANY nefarious dealings from said lumber salesman. Nothing but high praise and plenty of good will. Sounds like the OP just doesn't get along with Mr. Morgan. Well, I'm sure that the rest of us will take up the slack in business.

Anybody know where I can get some red, red, red cardinal wood (bloodwood)? Mr. Morgan? Hmmm....:D


Oh, and well said Mr. Short.

[Jeff Wright]

I just got a bunch of cherry from Mike. He delivered all that he promised - and a bit more. The 7/4 and 4/4 all looks great, including some wide pieces. I'd order from him again. I just wish I didn't live so far away (here in Florida).

[Dan Lee]

I have purchased 1 order from Mike that was handled perfectly. Price of the Cherry was less than I could get locally even with shipping. He packages the shippment really well. He also made a folow up call to ask if I was satisfied with my shipment

I had a shippment from another supplier a couple years ago for 200bf of QSWO that was packaged horibbly had to remove 27 boards individually from the truck.

Errors happen ... Dismissed
Dan
Satisfied MM buyer

[Michael McCoy]

I only responded initially because I have several years of dealing with Mike and I have a bit of a problem with someone venting on a site as well visited as Sawmill Creek with only emails as the source of the dispute. As mentioned above, they are questionable at best. I do have to admit that I did have a problem with one delivery in several years of doing business with Mike. He was in the hospital and not able to work but he did make sure that his son got in contact with me to make sure that I knew what the problem was and when I could expect delivery.

[Peter Quinn]

I know neither party in this dispute. I have been to Michael's site and may purchase lumber from him in the future. Reading this post will in no way effect that decision.

I do note in the OP's statement that he feels he has been cheated out of 7 BF, which represents roughly 3.5% of his order, not a large amount but not negligible. I would like to ask John the OP if he fully understands the rules for measuring the width and length of lumber sold by the BF? If you have accused a lumber sales professional of cheating you I should like to know your experience in calculating BF of rough lumber.

For instance where do you put your ruler on a board that is 6 1/4" width at one end and 6 5/8" at the other? And would you be calling that a 6" board or a 7" board in your mind? And would you call a board that measures 115 7/8" a ten foot board for calculations? Basically can you, possibly each of you though primarily the accuser, define your measuring standards for a product as non-uniform as rough lumber?

As I under stand it there are pretty simple uniform standards for these things and as some see it they favor the mill, though I feel they are just part of the equation and of little critical importance.

[Mac Cambra]

I just received an order from Mike, Cherry, Walnut and Maple all exceeded expectation. Mike took the initiative to keep the communication channels open throughout the whole process, in fact this order was a test to see further orders would be place. Mike passed and I have since placed a second order, without reservation.

I will say that based on the description above I would have to conclude that the complaint is not typical of transaction with Mike based not only on my experience but also on his reputation on the site.

Obviously its your choice regarding future business but from my perspective Mike has accepted responsibility and offered to make it up to you, why not give it a chance.

[John Dodson]

Folks,
I don’t think it is an unreasonable customer expectation to 1) receive what has been promised and 2) if there are any problems, we all agree they can happen, to be dealt with in an honest and forthright way. Customer Service 101. Those things didn’t happen and it was not because on an email miscommunication or because shipments were confused somehow with other Texas cities (new excuse, hadn’t heard that one).

What did happen, in a nutshell, is that I was strung along for 6 weeks. From the get-go, from the very first declaration of shipment (Mike had not collected a phone number, highly unlikely for a freight service to accept shipment without a phone #). But I can play the game, for awhile, 6 weeks to get a single order right seems generous to me. The pattern looks something like this: Shipment has been made-> excuses(including a hospital stay)->got phone number-> now shipment has been made-> but no tracking number provided-> ignore emails requesting tracking number->excuses for not having tracking number->excuses for not making shipment->Now shipment has been made->no tracking number provided…etc. That covers a three week period, the first partial shipment. We probably averaged a communication every 2 or 3 days, 30-40 Saw Creek PMs, emails to Mike’s blackberry (at his request) and phone calls.

The reason Mike cannot make it right is that I’ve heard his promise to make it right many times before. When It looked like the make up shipment was not going to happen(see pattern above), three weeks ago, I suggested that he just refund the difference in what was paid and what was shipped and we’ll leave it at that. His immediate response was that my shipment of qswo, cherry make board and some ash thrown in was on pallet ready to ship this morning, just give him the go ahead. I said alright ship it, and send me the tracking number this afternoon. See pattern above. What a waste of time and effort.

I told him to refund, when he failed to do that when promised, I got testy for the first time. He refunded.

You’re right 3.5% bf missing is not that big of a deal - in the context of good service. However, I don’t think it unreasonable to receive what was promised. Yes, I know how to measure board feet, I was generous , rounding up the quarter. I’ve been a woodworker on and off for 35 years, I have a BSE in Industrial Arts and in the very distant past taught woodshop in the public schools. I am currently the operations director for a private non-profit in charge of computer networks and maintaining 30K feet of building. I deal with equipment purchases, contract for building services all the time and understand delays. I am not a chump. Customer services reps I think will tell you that everything becomes a big deal in the context of bad service. Which reminds me.

In the course of settling, Mike briefly wanted to charge an extra $55 above actual shipping charges, explaining something along the lines that his CC was charged after the shipment was made because the pallets are estimated. Didn’t make sense to me but I offered to pay any shipping charges, for my shipment, for which he could produce an invoice. He declined.

The email that Mike thinks I took as sarcasm, was actually one I took as callousness. After settling Mike wanted me to email him that I had received payment, which I did, telling him that it was unfortunate that the transaction ended in an unsatisfactory way. He responded not to say he was sorry (first time I’ve seen an apology is above) but along the lines that he was trying to do better and to kind of understand how one guy could think his lumber order was so important, when the important thing to him is the 30 or 40 orders a week he needs to get out. Remarkable, as I told Mike on the phone, he should have quit while he was behind.

So, now, instead of a dissatisfied customer, he has a dissatisfied customer with a real bad taste in his mouth.

I’m glad some of you guys have had good experiences – part of the lucky 30 or 40 a week no doubt. Looking at the topic/tease on the curly maple I wonder if someone already has not sent payment, and are currently being strung along. My advice remains, caveat emptor -- measure your shipments, understand the shipping charges and if patterns emerge, get testy.

This is all I’m going to post on the topic. I think most will get my point.

[Alan Schaffter]

How about the PAYPAL refund? Unless you leave it with PAYPAL to use at a later date, doesn't PAYPAL charge you a fee to transfer it back to your bank account?

[John Dodson]

Hi Alan,

I'll just leave it in paypal - I use paypal fairly often to make purchases... no big deal.

Thanks for the thought.

[Larry James]

The 13th Juror says:

Have a problem - send an email. Include pictures if packaging or equipment is damaged.

Wait 2 working days. If there is no email reply - call and explain problem - ask for the CS person's name and how they intend to solve problem.

Follow up the call with an email - include the CS person's name and quote what they said.

The emails are your paper trail if a dispute arises.

This works for me - with one exception. I no longer order from the exception.

Larry

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I haven't ordered from Mike so I don't have a dog in this fight but....


Email is a very poor way of conducting business IMHO for a couple of reasons. First you have absolutely no proof that the email was ever received. My ISP and my firewall do me a great service by weeding out all of the spam and phishing emails daily. Recently a Creeker sent me a email containing information about inside-out turning. He sent it from his business email identity. My firewall threw it out as spam. Luckily I was expecting it and checked the junk mail file before I exited the email program and the junk mail file got emptied.


I'd recommend similar to the Larry's suggestion:

1. Call the business and file a complaint.

2. Follow this up with an email describing the situation and referring to the agreement arrived by the two parties involved. Determine the definition of a reasonable length of time.

3. Followup with a phone call and email if the follow through doesn't follow through in a reasonable length of time.

It's easy to attack someone on the internet and make a one-sided case to present your argument. All businesses will make mistakes at times. Period. Anyone who says they own a business or have worked with in a business and the business never made a mistake....well they are either less than truthful or didn't really have a clue as to what was going on in the real world. People are human. They make mistakes. Communicate with people in a reasonable tone of voice and manner. I work in a service industry. I have certain customers that treat me like I'm a valued part of their organization. I have customers that treat me like I'm a 2nd class citizen. Some customers get everything I can possibly do for them even well beyond the specifications of their service contract. Some get exactly what the contract specifies and nothing more. Often, the difference in the manner you handle youself, determines how well you will be handled by the other person.

[Peter Quinn]

Not to be a stickler but most rules measure the widest part of a board and round up at the half inch, not the quarter. I have never seen hardwood lumber marked by quarters on width. Always sold by the full inch. So a 6 1/2" rough board sells as 7" nominal, 6 7/16" sells as 6". Can you guess what I pull when I'm going through a stack locally?

Not trying to stir an irreconcilable argument. Just trying to understand where that 3.5% went if anywhere.

[Neal Clayton]

How about the PAYPAL refund? Unless you leave it with PAYPAL to use at a later date, doesn't PAYPAL charge you a fee to transfer it back to your bank account?

they don't charge you a fee to withdraw, they charge you a fee if someone pays you by non-cash means (basically they pass the credit card fee on to you).

[Larry Rasmussen]

I think it is useful to have a record with date and time attached. I find it helpful to know this vendor can get a little pushed at times. The interchange or response with tracking # of shipment should have taken 24 hrs. I took on a rebuild of a speaker that was really damaged by UPS and the buyer pre paid $850 (it was to buy the speaker too). I'm just a hobbyest and underestimated everything. Found more damage than expected and color matching the dyes, what a headache. I emailed, sent a picture, let him know it would be later than expected by a couple weeks, updated him once in between. He was very happy with the deal because I made sure there was not one moment of doubt on his part about what was going on.

Larry R
Seattle