Sand Carving vs. Laser Engraving

[Steve Clarkson]

Hello to all from a future laser owner (nope, you guys haven't talked me out of buying one.....yet!).

Just a quick question.......which do you think looks better and/or has a higher perceived value.....a wine bottle that has been sand carved or laser engraved?

As a follow up, what are the advantages of laser engraving that wine bottle over sand carving it? Speed? Cost?

All opinions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Joe Pelonio]

I do both, although most of my sandblasting is large signs that I cannot do in the laser. The sand will go a lot deeper, better for outdoor signs anyway. As for perception of value, if the buyer even knows how it was done, it could go either way Some will think it's "cool" to have been done by laser, others will think the sandblasted took more artistic talent. The cost to you would definitely be less for sandcarving small items, where an inexpensive setup can be used.

[Steve Clarkson]

Thanks Joe. Since you have both, I highly respect your opinion and experience.

But as an example, if you had a job to do for one wine bottle (I know....you don't like doing one-offs......but let's say it's for your mother......) with a photo and two lines of text.......would you do it with your laser.....or sandcarve it? Would your answer be different if it was 100 wine bottles?

I guess it also leads me to the same question for other substrates.....would your answer change if it was a 12" marble plaque instead of a wine bottle?

Thanks!

[Rodne Gold]

If you want to do photographs , sandcarving/blasting is a very poor option.

[Scott Shepherd]

It's all about having the right tool for the job. I don't think the laser is great option for producing quantities of round glassware. I know it can be done, and I'm sure someone out there is doing it, but if you have 100,500, or 1000 round glasses, it appears to me to be much easier to make the masks and blast them. Can I make a decal with my inkjet printer? Sure. Would it be the right tool to make 100 decals? Probably not.

Think about it- if it's a glass and it's got a pattern all the way around, you're talking about some distance to travel. Let's say it's a 3" diameter glass. That's 9.4 inches to travel, and it's moving at say .004" a pass? That's 2,356 passes to finish that. I think you could mask them and blast them a lot faster, in quantity.

I did see someone at a show recently who was doing photos on glass now. I'm not sure if it was Rayist or Ikon, but something sticks in my brain that it did to the mask what photograv does. So once it was blasted, it was a lot of little dots in different densities and it looked really nice. I could be recalling that wrong, but it seems like it happened, at least in my head!

[Tom Bull]

We experimented with a system that used a uv lamp to cure a water soluable (sp?) sandblast resist that could do photo images. Problem was that any imperfection ruined the whole thing and it was very contrary to work with. So it is doable to sandblast a photo, but not very easy.
My opinion is that each has it's place. If someone wants something with a lot of lettering or such, I think laser is the way to go. Art stuff is best with sandblast because of the carving capability.

[Mike Null]

having done both, my feeling is that sandblasting produces a superior image in most instances. The equipment costs a lot less but blasting takes more time and effort by far.

Sandblasting glass is always a one off process.

The laser is extremely limited as to what it can do well on glass.

[Rags Alan Ragland]

I do both I use laser tape on the wine bottle and then blast using the laser tape as a mask then color fill without taking off the mask. I think a sand blaster and laser make a perfect partner to one another.

For large quantities of glasses I agree that a sand blaster would be superior to the laser as far as time goes but the combination for ones and twos works well for me.

Dr. Rags

[Bob Davis]

I've got both systems, but I regard the sandblaster as an absolute waste of time, space and energy. I've had it for over a year and have not produced one penny of income from it. I'll be putting it on ebay when I find the time.
I've found the system to be incredibly fiddly, time-consuming, expensive to run and frustrating. I don't have anything good to say about it. YMMV, but good luck.
We sell a number of glasses and have never had a problem with the quality of the mark. Typical time in the laser is around 2 minutes, so the entire job is finished in around 5, or around 25-30 in an hour. One operator can run two lasers at the same time, so bigger jobs can be done even faster. The Epilog rotary fixture is far from perfect, but can handle most items with a bit of ingenuity, the GCC item on the second laser is very limited in the style of glass it can handle. I can't comment on other brands.

[Hilton Lister]

I too, have the option of either method and if I feel I have to laser, I generally use a mask and lightly blast the article afterwards. Looks far superior to laser in my opinion and I have yet to see surface lasered glass that
looks anything like as good as sandblasting. Probably all comes down to opinion and others may prefer laser work.

[Steve Clarkson]

Thanks for all your opinions. It's interesting to hear other people's opinions on the best way to do a project.

[Rodne Gold]

We also laser and blast , if its a big item , but trying to laser thru mask and blasting real fine detail or do photograpic styuff is an excercise in futility , but you can do both if you already lasering.
Do the fine stuff directly and while doing it laser the mask too , mask the fine stuff and blast.

We have found on qty , laser and blasting is just too expensive for the client so they accept the lasers limitations for the much cheap direct to glass method. We do tons of wedding flutes and come it at $3 or so for a graphic , date , bride and grooms names etc. We optimise the lasering on glass a few ways
1) Wet paper or dishwasher on the glass
2) Often do "black" stuff at 90% grey
3) rub silver or white rub 'n buff into the engraving
(we do it with blasting too , we use various gilding pastes for various colour fils)
A sandblaster is a relatively cheap addition to a laser , and you can do a lot more than just blast glass with it.
We use ours for decorative effects on pex , weathering and blasting wood , blasting glue residues from masks used when we etch metal , blast stainless and ally for subtle signage.
All sorts of stuff. Even tho we prolly only use ours 2-3 hrs a week , it paid for itself real quick.

[Steve Clarkson]

Sorry to keep harping on this issue, but I'm still unclear on a few things.

In a different post, someone had mentioned that when starting a business like you all have, that in addition to a laser, a vinyl cutter and sandblaster are absolute minimum things that you should have. So I started researching sandcarving equipment (note: I have NO experience in THAT either!) and now it almost seems like sandcarving is better than lasering in almost every category.

Sand can do almost any surface (including metal), it can go deeper, it looks better (or atleast more "artistic"), it's cheaper, you can do larger orders easier, etc. The only split opinion was on photo quality. And I'll note that Bob HATES blasting.

So I guess my question today is........what can a laser do BETTER than sandblasting? Paper and cardboard obviously.....rubber stamps.....wood? (the sand people will debate that one).....the actual masks used in blasting....what else?

Your opinions are greatly appreciated.

[Mike Null]

The laser is superior for acrylics, laminated plastics such as name tags and signs, lacquered brass and steel and many many wood applications. Wood for the simple reason it is more controllable and faster.

Whatever you do with a sand blaster requires a mask, protective covering, and clean up. I personally view it as minimum wage work. (the precise reason I sold mine)

[Rodne Gold]

A sandcarving setup is no where near a laser and a lasers capabilities. It cant cut , it can't do ultrafine detail , it takes 10x longer to set up for one offs , it cant do engraving plastics , it cant do the same thing on wood , it can't do anything on fabrics or rubber and so on and so on. It's a pretty gross tool compared to a laser. A sandblasting/carving setup is only an alternative to a laser if you are doing mainly glass.
A vinly cutter in terms of masks is VERY limited and time consuming , try weeding a paragraph of 7mm letters...........and then removing the mask after.......
Now try that 10x for the plaques for the scout troop.
There is a good reason why $2-3k sandcarving setups aren't selling like hot cakes and $20 000 lasers gathering dust.

[Steve Clarkson]

Thanks Rodne....I truly value your opinion.

[Lisa Higginbotham]

Wow! I totally disagree. When I bought my blaster it took me a couple months to get comfortable with it, but then the first job I got (approx 6 months after purchase) totally paid for the machine. I have been doing that same job every year (multistaged awards for corporate account) and it has been HUGELY profitable. Even my financial advisor said the blaster was the quickest and best return on investment of any equipment I have bought. I hope to upgrade to a bigger machine this year.

[Scott Shepherd]

Well, there ya go Steve, clear as it can be. Sandblasters are great! Wait.... not so great and very limited. Wait....GREAT! No.....Not so great!!!!!! Great. No So Great! Stop me when I'm saying the one you want to hear!

It's like everything else in this business. What's great for one, other's can't make a penny with. It all depends on your market and what you plan to do. There are people who have lines on work that pays very well in just about every aspect. Easy to do, pays well, lots of volume, while you take that same idea and move it 500 miles away to a different town/people, and you couldn't sell one of them.

It's all about knowing your market. There is no "right" answer to any question when it comes to whether something will be a good investment or not. My vinyl plotter does very well, however I know people with them who say they couldn't figure out how to make a dime with them. It's where you are, what you do, how you do it, and who you're doing it to (on many levels ;) ) that justifies whether or not it's worth doing.

Just my opinion.

[Rodne Gold]

Lisa , yours is very much a speciality niche market where a blaster will do a better job than a laser.

The question that was being asked was whether the laser and sandblaster could do the same thing , IE one is a replacement for the other .....
If you want to boil it down to economic returns , you would recoup the blaster cost easier as its a lot cheaper , you would struggle however to create the same size of market and flexibility as a laser , so the potential to generate a decent living would be smaller.

My feelings about someone purchasing a single laser , cold in the industry without markets , is that it really is struggling against the odds. I believe that if you do this , treat the purchase as an expensive hobbyist/shop tool and if you make a few bucks...you going good. This in the light of todays economic climate , more lasers being on the market and cheaper ones.
I think the same thing is true of a blastiung setup too.......
The one essential question to ask before setting up businesses with these tools , is .....why would customers come to me rather than existing guys?

[Steve Clarkson]

[quote=Scott Shepherd;898541] Stop me when I'm saying the one you want to hear!


Give me a break Scott. I'm trying to do "research" by picking the brains of the people who are in the trenches. I've made it crystal clear that I have no experience in this industry, but it highly interests me and I'm hoping to get involved in it someday soon.

Based upon all the conflicting opinions in this thread, it's pretty clear that there are two camps (those who think sandcarving is superior and those who think lasering is superior).....so I'm just trying to tally up the pros and cons of each.

I mean if everyone's opinion is that sandcarving is faster, cheaper, higher quality, easier and more profitable than using a laser to put a photo in marble.....then why would I want to blow $30K on a laser when I can get the blaster setup for 5K? Or if the only thing a laser can do better than sandcarving is make nametags.....why would I want to get a laser? And if everyone's opinion is that I can laser etch a photo in 10 marble plaques in the same amount of time that it takes to sandcarve one......then it's pretty clear that the laser is the best option (if making money is my goal).

Pros & Cons. Pros & Cons. I'm simply trying to add them up to see what is the best way to go.

Thanks again to everyone who has been so generous to share their experience and opinions.

[Joe Hubbard]

Along with several others, I am fortunate to have both systems. The quality of fine sandblasting can not be matched by the laser with some exceptions. Photographs can be sandblasted via the UV resist method - unfortunately UV resist is very expensive and very very fussy - someone else also commented on how difficult it is to get the resist right. On the other hand when done right - it looks very good. Because sandblasting takes time and effort and mess etc. etc. the laser is frequently my choice when the very highest quality is not demanded. These days my sandblaster is mostly loaded with 60 grit and used for sandblasted wood signs. There is a learning curve to the sandblaster - plan on ruining some glass while you learn pressures and how not to blast off the resist or how to fix it when you do. Guess I'm kind of repeating what others have said. Both have their place. Joe

[Scott Shepherd]

Steve, sorry if that didn't come across as it was typed. It was meant as a joke because it's the way every question gets answered when you ask people for their opinion on equipment. Ask which laser is best for you and you'll get the same thing- some people tell you one model is the best, other's will tell you it's nothing but trouble.

I hope you know I wasn't taking any shots as you, I was simply saying it's very difficult to get someone's opinion when we don't know what your business plan is. That was my point, that what works great for one person works terrible for another person. It all depends on what you plan to do and who your customers will be.

For me, you couldn't pay me enough to deal with retail customers, where others love retail customers and wouldn't want it any other way. We're all different, have different dreams, goals, and interests. So there is no "one size fits all" answer, which I'm sure you can see from the posts.

I think it's great you're looking for something to get into and make successful. It's a big world out there with so many options and the only way you'll find your path is by doing what you're doing- exploring all kinds of options.

I hope that clears it up and you understand I wasn't trying to say that your mind is made up and you are just looking for someone to agree with you. I don't think that at all. I think you've asked some excellent questions and hopefully you'll keep asking and keep posting your experiences so we can all follow your success.

Best of luck-
Steve

[Steve Clarkson]

I guess I just interpreted it wrong. Now I understand what you were trying to say. No harm, no foul.

And I do really appreciate you and everyone else that takes time out of their busy day to help me and others that come to this board. It's a great forum that you have here.

[David Fairfield]

Totally agree. Doing glassware with the laser is a job I'm reluctant to take. I've had some really good results with it but overall its just not optimal for a number of reasons.

Also the results of laser engraved glas can look a bit "cheap" on very close inspection. The glass surface is crackled, not frosted, and it lacks depth. Basically all the engraving is at the same level, with sand the effect is frosted, and you can go deeper and get some very attractive variations.

I'd only recommend directly lasering glass if you're a multi tasking general engraver. If you're specializing in glass, go with sandblasting. A laser can be useful for making masks for that application.

HTH
Dave




It's all about having the right tool for the job. I don't think the laser is great option for producing quantities of round glassware. I know it can be done, and I'm sure someone out there is doing it, but if you have 100,500, or 1000 round glasses, it appears to me to be much easier to make the masks and blast them. Can I make a decal with my inkjet printer? Sure. Would it be the right tool to make 100 decals? Probably not.

Think about it- if it's a glass and it's got a pattern all the way around, you're talking about some distance to travel. Let's say it's a 3" diameter glass. That's 9.4 inches to travel, and it's moving at say .004" a pass? That's 2,356 passes to finish that. I think you could mask them and blast them a lot faster, in quantity.

I did see someone at a show recently who was doing photos on glass now. I'm not sure if it was Rayist or Ikon, but something sticks in my brain that it did to the mask what photograv does. So once it was blasted, it was a lot of little dots in different densities and it looked really nice. I could be recalling that wrong, but it seems like it happened, at least in my head!

[James Stokes]

I do sandblasting and to be perfectly honest I make more doing that than running the laser. I do a lot of large commercial jobs. I had 20 pieces of glass delivered to me this morning for a job. The job will take 2 days and I am charging $ 200 each. Not bad for a couple days. I have a Harbor freight pressure pot cost about 90 dollars, a Pab gun, about 100 dollars and a nice compressor about 600 dollars. And a Graphtec plotter about $2700 This year I have done a little over $20,000 in labor and really expect to double that for the year.

[Steve Clarkson]

James, wow.....$200 each? That's impressive.....I assume they aren't beer mugs! Can I ask what you're doing? Maybe you could post a picture after one is done and let us know how much work was involved.

[Darryl Hazen]

To expand a little on something Rodne said previously in regard to wet paper being used to laser engrave glass, I ran a little test sample. The attached photo shows 600 dpi engraving. The top half is straight laser engraving, the bottom half is done with wet paper over the glass. All the other settings are the same.
93687

[James Stokes]

On this particular job the glass is 28x56 and I am putting 1/2 stripes on the glass all the way through. Rather simple really.

[Frank Corker]

To expand a little on something Rodne said previously in regard to wet paper being used to laser engrave glass, I ran a little test sample. The attached photo shows 600 dpi engraving. The top half is straight laser engraving, the bottom half is done with wet paper over the glass. All the other settings are the same.
93687


Daryl - when I engrave on glass I usually use thick shower gel which I put across the piece (smells nice too) and then very fine paper just to retain the moisture. I usually end up with a very nice finish with very little 'sharp edges' and better than with just wet paper alone. You might want to give it a try. (On the glass not in the shower silly)

[Darryl Hazen]

Frank,
Thanks for the suggestion! I've tried the dish soap and the wet paper separately but haven't tried a combination of the two. That would also keep the wet paper from drying out and flying away half way through the job.:D