DT saw handle design

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm getting near-er-er-er to that point where I'll need to make the handle for the piece-of-metal-ne-saw which I have been learning to put the teeth on.

As a general proposition: I rather like the look of the Gramercy.

What I know that I don't know:

1.) The size. How many fingers one should be wrapping around the handle. Some of the saws Ive seen appear to be made to accommodate only three fingers. Is that right?

2.) the thickness of the grip. How far around the fingers should wrap on the grip.

3.) the angle of the hand to the blade.

4.) the height of the thumb above the lone of the cutting edge.

6.) What do you use to strip the blue off the steel~?
I'm thinking I'll use a sanding belt made for metal with a grit of 100. Then hand stroke with finer Tri-M-Ite till I'm happy with the look. I figure I'll do this before I set the teeth.

I have a couple older hand saws that I will strip for hardware.

When I began this I really had no mental reference for how fine 20 TPI was. That is the pitch I'm cutting on the blade. It's fine.

At first, I was discouraged trying to use the tri point file that I got from Tools for Woodworking. However, the owner of the store posted here, for my eddificatation, that I ought not to be trying to get the teeth to lean forward.

That one factor made all the difference in the world. I had it stuck in my head that I wanted the teeth to cant forward. Over the years I had never really thought about the angle of the hand saws I sharpened as I was just following the original grind on the saw.

[Pedder Petersen]

1.) The size. How many fingers one should be wrapping around the handle. Some of the saws Ive seen appear to be made to accommodate only three fingers. Is that right?

yes, 3 fingers,



2.) the thickness of the grip. How far around the fingers should wrap on the grip.


7/8"-1 1/4" (7/8" for the dovetail saw)
for my taste the fingertips shouldn't touch the palm but the thumb



3.) the angle of the hand to the blade.



http://www.traditionaltools.us/cms/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10122/handle_hang_1.jpg



6.) What do you use to strip the blue off the steel~?
I'm thinking I'll use a sanding belt made for metal with a grit of 100. Then hand stroke with finer Tri-M-Ite till I'm happy with the look. I figure I'll do this before I set the teeth.



I would start with a finer grit, it takes long to remove the scratches

Btw. How do you make the back / spine?

Cheers Pedder

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It came with back one on it. I purchased a couple of those cheap blue steel joint compound spreaders.

There's an unsightly hole pattern in the center and the back is just aluminum but, for now it'll do.

When I get "round to it" I'll cut the alum off and epoxy a couple pieces of flat brass stock

Nice pix, thanks

[Jeff Craven]

1.) The size. How many fingers one should be wrapping around the handle. Some of the saws Ive seen appear to be made to accommodate only three fingers. Is that right?

When I use my dovetail saw, my index finger is pointed down the back of the saw, so it only needs to be large enough for three fingers. This one that I bought was barely large enough for three fingers, so I enlarged the opening until it was comfortable.

http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/6240/jacksondovetailsawai9.jpg

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Cliff,

I have been working on a new website, not really ready yet but you
can download a few open handle templates from here.

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=7


Pedder, where did you find bob brodes gallery, I have been looking for
that for months..

Agree on all other comments, except I think 20 tpi is too fine, but that's
a matter of personal preference, I would go 12 tpi zero rake.

Regards
Ray

[Casey Gooding]

You can also print the template for the Grammercy Dovetail saw from the Tools for Working Wood website.

[Buddy Forshee]

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/node/68:)

I think there are a couple of handle templates in this excellent article.

[Phillip Pattee]

Cliff,
You will probably want to experiment with a few angles for the handle until you get one where the hang of the saw just feels right for you. I've seen a rule of thumb that as you hold the saw, wrap your lower three fingers around the handle and extend your fore finger along the side of the handle--it should point to the center of the saw's teeth at the bottom of the blade. Using this logic, a eight inch saw would have a handle positioned with a smaller angle (as in Pedder's posted pics) than a saw with a longer, say 10 inch blade.:rolleyes:

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi Cliff,

I have been working on a new website, not really ready yet but you
can download a few open handle templates from here.

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=7


Pedder, where did you find bob brodes gallery, I have been looking for
that for months..

Agree on all other comments, except I think 20 tpi is too fine, but that's
a matter of personal preference, I would go 12 tpi zero rake.

Regards
Ray

Hi Ray,

I got the picture from traditionalhandtools and saved it because BBrodes page is down now (hope it comes back).

Very nice picture collection on your page, did something similiar on my blog. (http://pedder-altedamenauskiel.blogspot.com/search/label/S%C3%A4genmuseum)

TPI for a dovetail saw? 14 for my taste. ;)

Cheers Pedder

[Pedder Petersen]

Using this logic, a eight inch saw would have a handle positioned with a smaller angle (as in Pedder's posted pics) than a saw with a longer, say 10 inch blade.:rolleyes:


Just to put things straight: This wasn't my work, I just took the picture from:

http://www.traditionaltools.us/cms/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10122/handle_hang_2.jpg

http://www.traditionaltools.us/cms/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10122/handle_hang_1.jpg

Cheers
Pedder

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Ray,

I got the picture from traditionalhandtools and saved it because BBrodes page is down now (hope it comes back).

Very nice picture collection on your page, did something similiar on my blog. (http://pedder-altedamenauskiel.blogspot.com/search/label/S%C3%A4genmuseum)

TPI for a dovetail saw? 14 for my taste. ;)

Cheers Pedder

Hi Pedder,

Nice Blog, beautiful handle pictures, I have put that blog on my list of sites to keep an eye on, I was in Germany last year my son married a German girl, and we spent a few weeks around Koln, Dortmund, Munster beautiful country.

I will be moving my website to a proper server, in a few weeks so check
back in a couple of weeks when it is up and running properly.

Back to saw making,

Cliff, I will put up some info on making brass backs and related stuff in this thread. Might help make some things easier.

Regards
Ray

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Got the handle on it made from elm
She's purdy even with the nasty three holes in the center of the spine from the Sheet rock compound handle.

It's a 20 TPI set. Perfect spacing. I can lay it on a length of 1/4-20 all-thread and it's perfect. I set the teeth with the set I got from Tools for woodworking and it sets 'em nice and regular. I used the "almost no set at all " setting like they suggest.

It cuts like a dream. Except for this one spot about 3/4 the way down where it catches.

There is no kink in the blade.
I examined the teeth with a 5x and a 10x loupe and can't find an irregular tooth or other defect.

Yah Yah it's gotta be a tooth that was maybe set too far. 'Cept'n I can't find it.

Any ideas?

[Mike K Wenzloff]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

3/4 of the way...meaning from the toe of the saw, or from the heel? IOW, closer to the toe or heel? Makes a difference. But the picture would be good, full side shot, in addition to the info.

Take care, Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

A picture is worth a thousand words...
When I get a digital camera I'll take one till then the film is still in the camera.


3/4 of the way...meaning from the toe of the saw, or from the heel?
From the toe assuming "toe" means the end furthest from the user's hand.

I sighted it ( over and over again ) for kinks and there's nothing. A kink was the first suspicion I had.

My eye loupes aren't exactly a J&L 500-to-1 optical comparator but they are pretty good. I can't find a flaw. I expected to find either a string of un-set teeth or one tooth ( or more) set way out of whack. Nuthin.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

It's not a kink.

That's why I was wondering if "3/4 of the way" meant closer to the handle (heel) or closer to the end (toe).

The picture had you been able to do one would have been good as I could have viewed the handle hang angle. Did you use a pattern?

Take care, Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It's not a kink.

Correct am=ny kink that would stop the cutting motion would show when the blade was rotated in the light looking to irregularities in the gloss.


That's why I was wondering if "3/4 of the way" meant closer to the handle (heel) or closer to the end (toe).3/4 from the toe which would place it about 1/4 the way from the handle.


The picture had you been able to do one would have been good as I could have viewed the handle hang angle. No digital camera.


Did you use a pattern? Pattern for what the teeth~? No.

For the handle~? No.
No patterns.

I started out with a 20 pitch set of lines on a word processor document as the pattern for filing the teeth and it was pure disaster. So I ground the saw flat again and started over - but with a twist.
I ended up substituting my skills as a machinist tool maker for my lack of skill at filing teeth and built myself a saw filing machine that gives me precise increments.
The tooth pitch is dead on. The depth of the gullet has some minor variation (maybe 0.005") but you can't see it easily.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

I understood...no picture. I was just remarking that *if* you had one, long-distance help would have been more assured.

Nor was I commenting on your eveness of tooth spacing (matters little) nor on eveness of set (matters most) nor that the tooth tips are even (also matters). I simply assumed that what you posted was true--that the teeth were even (both spacing and tips) and the set great.

If this tid-bit helps another to post a picture--if he is able to--in the first place, help is usually easier from the other end. This applies to more issues than this one. *But* I understand you cannot.

How did you come up with the handle design? Not in a vacuum. Design elements likely came from somewhere, eh? How did you determine the hang? What is the hang?

So just a wag, but I suspect the hang is higher than lower. What is it in degrees?

fwiw, as this is my last post in this thread, if a higher hang is chosen, and once the teeth past the point where the handle hang angle strikes the tooth line, when sawing, there is a point of the weight, force of sawing and tooth geometry that conspire to over-center and sawing can be more difficult.

For others: A t-square lined up across the mean centerline of the hand hold with the long leg striking the tooth line would figure out the effect of hand hang.

In sawing with an open-handled saw, especially when using a higher hang handle, it helps to ease pressure at some point in the cut before the hang over centers. Many people do this naturally. However, the tooth line contact still needs to be firmly across the cut.

Tooth rake agressiveness also comes into play with the whole handle hang and number of teeth per inch. They are all related in the practice of sawing.

If the rake is agressive, one can relax the rake a bit from that point of handle hang angle to the heel of the saw. This can help tremendously.

Take care, Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

How did you come up with the handle design? Not in a vacuum.

Heavens no. I stole liberally and shamelessly from the ones who went before me. I knew what I wanted it to look like but, never having held one I wasn't too sure of the details of the geometry


How did you determine the hang? What is the hang?
well one poster here (Pedder) gave me a relative average.
and of course by looking at the pictures of old saws such as those for sale on various tool re-seller's sites.

So it's about 44.5 degrees.
Having never used such a saw I have no references for making the decision other than it's what I've seen.



fwiw, as this is my last post in this thread, if a higher hang is chosen, and once the teeth past the point where the handle hang angle strikes the tooth line, when sawing, there is a point of the weight, force of sawing and tooth geometry that conspire to over-center and sawing can be more difficult.

How very interesting.


For others: A t-square lined up across the mean centerline of the hand hold with the long leg striking the tooth line would figure out the effect of hand hang.




In sawing with an open-handled saw, especially when using a higher hang handle, it helps to ease pressure at some point in the cut before the hang over centers. Many people do this naturally. However, the tooth line contact still needs to be firmly across the cut.

Hmmm.



Tooth rake agressiveness also comes into play with the whole handle hang and number of teeth per inch. They are all related in the practice of sawing.

If the rake is agressive, one can relax the rake a bit from that point of handle hang angle to the heel of the saw. This can help tremendously.

I started out seeking a forward rake and the fellow from Tools for Woodworking suggested that I shoot for a negative rake. So I did. I was finding that a tri cornered file really isn't suited to making a positive rake on a finely toothed saw.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

when holding my saw ( which looks a lot like this one) normally I got the "grab in the spot indicated

93614

When I held the saw way too high up on the blade It grabbed sooner along the blade as shown
93616

When I held the saw handle at the bottom of the handle the "grab" disappeared entirely
93615

So I gotta lower the part of the handle where I hold it.

[Ray Gardiner]

when holding my saw ( which looks a lot like this one) normally I got the "grab in the spot indicated

93614

When I held the saw way too high up on the blade It grabbed sooner along the blade as shown
93616

When I held the saw handle at the bottom of the handle the "grab" disappeared entirely
93615

So I gotta lower the part of the handle where I hold it.

Hi Cliff,

That fault diagnosis of Mike's, sight unseen, unknown handle, unknown filing, no photo, impressive stuff. Nice work.

Handle hang. I usually just look where my index finger is pointing when you hold the saw normally. The action has a lot to do with it as well.

Back to the filing what did you mean when you said "negative rake". See diagram below. I suspect you meant positive rake? I am a bit interested in standard naming conventions at the moment.

I would be interested something on what you set up for teeth cutting. Sound interesting.


Regards
Ray

[Joel Moskowitz]

if a tooth is straight up and down it's zero rake. If it leans in more aggressively it's positive rake (like a Japanese saw) if it leans the other way , that is leans back, less aggressveily it's negative rake (like most western saws). For confirmation see Machinerists handbook where rake angle is all over the map depending on what material is being machined.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Joel,

Yep, that's the way I understand it to be.

Cutting edge in front == positive (Like a hook tooth)
Cutting edge behind == negative (Like a x-cut handsaw)

Regards
Ray

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Glad it worked out for you, Cliff.

fwiw, even without seeing your saw, pattern maker's saws are probably even a higher hang. Now those are strange to use. But, one can adapt the sawing motion to them as well.

Unless you want to make a new handle, I would use the saw for a while, relaxed grip, stance and sawing motion and see how you get on with it. Or perhaps even relax the rake a skosh. You might find that you end up really liking it as is. But if not, you can always do it then.

Take care, Mike
well, back to work...

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Hi Cliff,

That fault diagnosis of Mike's, sight unseen, unknown handle, unknown filing, no photo, impressive stuff. Nice work.

Yeah huh? At first I was screwing up my face trying to figure out what he was saying then it hit me. Maybe the forces collude to create a break point where forward cutting motion is hampered by the downward pressure.
And sure enough it was absolutely the thing.

Hats off to Mike.


Handle hang. I usually just look where my index finger is pointing when you hold the saw normally. The action has a lot to do with it as well.I'm redesigning a handle for this saw. I'll pay closer attention to the variables. Maybe I should build a re-positionable (plywood) handle to tweak the bugs.


Back to the filing what did you mean when you said "negative rake". See diagram below. I suspect you meant positive rake? I am a bit interested in standard naming conventions at the moment.Coming from a machine shop background I say negative rake when I want to indicate that the tool bit is not ground to slice into the work but rather is ground in a way that "appears" as if it'll push away from the work.


A zero rake is the little flat one would hand stone on a drill bit or other tool bit for cutting brass or plexiglass to keep it from biting too deeply and grabbing the work . It is perpendicular to the work.

A positive rake is the normal cant of the cutting edge it appears to want to slice into the work and carve the chip out.

Exampole of what I mean by negative rake:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(with -----> as direction of cut)

Note the saw teeth above are not leaning in any direction you could call "forward"~?
That'd be a negative rake with the teeth leaning away from the cur some ( any) amount.

Positive rake is that rake you'll see on on your circular saw blade that has the teeth leaning aggressively into the cut path.

To cut very thin and soft materials like lead, copper, or aluminum Flashing you use a negative rake blade (just flip to reverse your regular saw blade) and VIOLA you can use a power tool to zip through the flashing job.



I would be interested something on what you set up for teeth cutting. Sound interesting.It's like a die filer only more. A die filer is a free hand machine mine is not.
(Here is one in action http://tinyurl.com/5jloky ) You stick a file in it (the files are dead straight and have a tang at each end - they come in all profiles)
Mine is purpose built so I built it with an X and Y table onto my machine to feed the saw blade into the file - the file being set at an angle.
Pictures are still in the camera.

[Ray Gardiner]

It's like a die filer only more. A die filer is a free hand machine mine is not.
(Here is one in action http://tinyurl.com/5jloky ) You stick a file in it (the files are dead straight and have a tang at each end - they come in all profiles)
Mine is purpose built so I built it with an X and Y table onto my machine to feed the saw blade into the file - the file being set at an angle.
Pictures are still in the camera.

Ok, so x-y stepping across one tooth at at time, I just quoted to retro-fit a plc to a Volmer Finimat IVb, (yes I know I'm supposed to be retired, but...) The guy wants to upgrade to a IVC, which will do fancier sequence tooth patterns. Of course this is for TCT circular saws. But principles are the same.

Looking forward to seeing some pictures of your machine.

Back to rake, what was the motivation behind wanting positive rake, I am interested, having just read Holly "The art of saw-filing" he seems to be saying that positive rake is a good thing for handsaws. (?)

Regards
Ray

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Glad it worked out for you, Cliff.

Well: Thank you~!! It was light dawning over marble head (a Massachusetts joke).


fwiw, even without seeing your saw, pattern maker's saws are probably even a higher hang. Now those are strange to use. But, one can adapt the sawing motion to them as well. How interesting. Wonder if the pattern makers did it on purpose. Old guilds had some strange things going on to keep the craft secret. I've worked machine shops with the power from pulleys in the ceiling. The change gears had markings on them that only the old timers could read - cause they put 'em there.

Swiss millers and lathes had no markings on the dials. You had to "learn" how much turn of the dial equaled how much distance the tool bit or table moved.



Unless you want to make a new handle, I would use the saw for a while, relaxed grip, stance and sawing motion and see how you get on with it. Or perhaps even relax the rake a skosh. You might find that you end up really liking it as is. But if not, you can always do it then.Well this is a journey for me. I'm trying to find something.

So maybe I'll try to play with the style I bring to the saw. before I re mount it. I do rather think I want to understand more about how all the variables (style, hand, arm, tooth rake, and the various handle geometries) all come together to make a saw work.


I have the jigs (the leigh D4 and the Omnijig) and I think I may want to just oil 'em up and put 'em in storage as I don't take any pleasure form them at all. They were fun at first. Ya know, that first couple of drawers. Woo Hoo~!!. But after a while things changed. The skill was all about setting a cutter in a collet. I came to feel like a production machine operator running someone else's set up when using them - no dignity.

So in the spirit of the journey: making a new handle or trying to see if I can tweak my style to fit the handle there is, are fine ways to go.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Positive rake (i.e., forward leaning teeth to the direction of cut) on a push saw *can* work in certain softwoods. Pine of the white wood variety. Poplar, while a hardwood, work OK but not as well as Pine.

It takes a thicker plate than found on smaller push saws. Blade starts to buckle easily in something like Douglas Fir. Ripping works better than cross cutting.

I have one saw thus configured. A 24" panel saw. Strikes me there is about 8 degrees of positive rake. Perhaps more as looking at it hanging on the wall, the tooth profile is fairly low. There is also a bit of fleam, more at the toe and easing back to none near the handle.

Aggressive cutting describes it well. However, a well sharpened 0 degree rake rip in anything other than Pine cuts as fast without as much effort. As for cross cutting--too jarring to use positive rake. A strong cross cut is far better.

Take care, Mike

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Mike,

I think you can file this under "interesting ideas, but completely wrong" Holly was writing in 1890. So it's a historical curiousity.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=93685&stc=1&d=1217516525

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=93686&stc=1&d=1217516525

I think the two factors Holly left out, were the amount of power required, and the fragility of the teeth in thinnish blades.

There's a good quote:- "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, in practice there is"


Regards
Ray

PS In case anyone is concerned about copyright issues, the book is out of copyright.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Ok, so x-y stepping across one tooth at at time,

Yup. I used 1/4*20 all-thread as the lead screw for the TPI. If I want to change pitch I can either count thousandths (2 turns = 0.100") or make it idiot proof by changing the lead screw and the split nut and guides (three parts I can make in less than an hour).


I just quoted to retro-fit a plc to a Volmer Finimat IVb, I've seen a newer Vollmer they are bloody impressive. Old machinists don't retire they scrape ways.



Looking forward to seeing some pictures of your machine.It's ugly but, it works.
Built from:
MDF & Ply,
junk & scrap (even used a junk BMW stub axle),
a 1963 bearing computer drawer slide (for the saw carriage table and cross feed),
threaded rod stock,
3/8" & 1/2" inch steel bar stock, and
Sintered bronze oillite bushings.
All mounted in an old re-purposed plywood box. Oh and a 1970 era Dayton worm drive reducing motor on a swing link to make it go.


I do not put any aesthetic effort into my shop fixtures and gizmos, I only want 'em to work. So they are ugly beasts whose beauty is on the inside.


Back to rake, what was the motivation behind wanting positive rake

The truth: ignorance. Nothing more noble than that. It just seemed like how it ought to be.


I am interested, having just read Holly "The art of saw-filing" he seems to be saying that positive rake is a good thing for handsaws. (?)I suppose if you could accomplish it it would be a good thing.

On some old school two man hand felling saws and in the two man rip-saw pit used in the sawpits there were plenty of saws with a positive rake. But then you had the room in the gullets to get in there and put positive rake on it. To do so with a fine pitch hand saw you'd need a J&L 500-1 comparator and some realy fine needle files. It's just not practical.

I played around with small (1/16" and smaller) rat-tails trying to get that sexy round edged positive rake. I tried knife files as small too, to get any forward leaning tooth geometry - - - it's just not do-able by hand. Maybe with my little saw filer I can pull it off. I haven't tried yet.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Cliff,

Sounds, like a great machine, You have to get a digital camera, so you can post pictures.

The argument against a positive rake for handsaws, are (as well as the things mike mentioned). By the time you got a gullet big enough to carry out the cut material, the tooth would be too weak with the thin blade material, so you would the have to increase the blade thickness to make the tooth strong enough, and the consequent increase in power required would make it too hard to push by hand. I imagine it would be like trying to cut timber by hand cranking a circular saw.

Interesting.

Regards
Ray

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Sounds, like a great machine, You have to get a digital camera, so you can post pictures. They are in the camera. I'm a lousy photographer.


By the time you got a gullet big enough to carry out the cut material, the tooth would be too weak with the thin blade material [...] have to increase the blade thickness [...] increase in power requiredSort of like the problem of getting more air speed by installing a bigger engine in the air plane.

Great~!! A bigger motor~!! Now you need bigger wings and larger fuel tanks to feed and carry all that engine. And it's back down to 250 knots all over again.

[Iain Aitken]

Ray you were asking about Bob Brode's website... here is where you can find it. Archive.org (sort of like a library for old websites). This works for most websites that you get the old 404 not found message for. Just go to archive.org and type in the url in the wayback machine and it'll display all the copies of the website it has saved over the years. Here is the direct link to Bob's page (although most of the pictures don't seem to have been saved on the 3 or 4 that I've checked so far):

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://members.brandx.net/free/websites/bbrode/woodwork/

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Iain,

Let me be the first to welcome you to SMC. The natives here are (mostly) friendly :) and there is a wealth of experienced people around, who are always happy to help.

Thanks for the link to the wayback machine, that's a great resource for tracking down dead links. Much appreciated.

I wonder if anyone knows what actually happened to Bob Brode? He slipped off the radar.

Regards
Ray

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Well now I have one of each.
I made a new handle for the original saw blade and cut down another sheetrock mud applicator to get it about the same narrower ( more like the Gramercy).

I may like the narrower one better. The "feel" is that you are closer to the work.

I put 'em through their paces today trying my hand at blind DTs ( there will be no pics of that~!!). They are both right dab. I'm quite happy I took the trouble to do this.

Now of course I have to make an 18 and then a 16 TPI and maybe an itty bitty cross cut saw too. It takes almost no tiume to tooth the saw the way I do it. SOP the real effort is the handle.

Pix are still in the camera.