need help designing a workbench top

[Tyler Davis]

Gentlemen:

I'm posting in the Neander Haven even though I'm primarily a power-tools user. I figured you guys are the pros when it comes to bench design and construction as I have seen some real works of art here.

A@@-kissing aside, I'm not aiming for a work of art here. I'm looking for a functional, reasonably-priced bench top that can be added to the rolling cart you see in the pictures.

I want to use the top for edge-routing, sanding, and some basic hand-tool use; chiseling and planing.

The cabinet is 34" by 34" and I will overhang that by 4" on each of 3 sides, so the bench top will be 42" by 38". Of course the back will be too far away for a work surface but I can store some stuff back there.

questions:

1. material selection: I like Chris Schwarz's idea of using construction lumber. However all our dimensional stuff here is douglas fir, not southern yellow pine, and most of it is green. I think the pine that is in the "hardwood" aisle at Home Depot may be Southern Yellow Pine, but it is 1x, not 2x. How do I tell if it is SYP, and is this suitable for a laminated top?

2. Vises(s) - I've seen everything from $50 to $250 for a vise. I'd like to stay near the lower end. Can you tell me what the major difference is, what features are "must have" and what type may be suitable for the uses I listed above? Do I need both a face vise and end vise?

3. Bench dog geometry - I'm leaning towards square dogs, since I can dado them into my laminated layers and because the square seems more stable than round. Does this limit the accessories I can use? I see a lot of bench hold-downs that are 3/4" round

4. bench dog placement - I see most people seem to have a single row of dog holes offset from the front edge. Of course they are aligned with the stop on the end vise. Since I will need to cut the holes before laminating- how do I make sure I have my bases covered for future expansion?

thanks for your input!

[Jim Koepke]

Unless you have some brakes on the rollers, you will find it very difficult to use a plane on this bench.

Round dogs or square dogs? Haven't seen as much discussion on this as whether one should cut pins or tails first.

If you want a lot of the hold downs and other fancy things, then 3/4" round holes may be easiest. It really does not take long to use a brace and bit to bore a few holes.

If you are just going to use scraps to make your own and do not like drilling holes, then square dogs will work. Hold downs can be used in square holes. Some of the other clamping attachments need round holes.
If my memory is working, square dog holes are usually tilted a few degrees toward the tail vice. Maybe someone else will have a more exact amount of tilt to use.

jim

[Doug Shepard]

There is another fairly cheap option for the top
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83328

I did some rough figuring and a 4" thick top 38x42 would take 3 sheets of 3/4" baltic birch ply.

[harry strasil]

find someone tearing down an OLD house and see if you can get some of the studs or joists to rework into a top, It shsould be well seasoned (aged) anyway and stable. Just make sure you check for metal and make sure if you plane one side you do the other or it is gonna warp.

Another tip is use some of the const grade stuff to make a prototype and try it for awhile, you will find no matter how well you design something to what you want, you are gonna want to change it somewhat. You can always use the prototype as an assembly area or as a finish application bench.

And I agree with Jim, remove the under neath rollers and make them external and retractable to stabilize the bench, similar to a mobile base for a table saw etc

[Wilbur Pan]

1. material selection: I like Chris Schwarz's idea of using construction lumber. However all our dimensional stuff here is douglas fir, not southern yellow pine, and most of it is green. I think the pine that is in the "hardwood" aisle at Home Depot may be Southern Yellow Pine, but it is 1x, not 2x. How do I tell if it is SYP, and is this suitable for a laminated top?

I would be highly surprised if the 1x pine at your local borg is SYP. In any case, it's going to be pricy. For the cost of the 1x pine at my local borg I might as well get rough sawn maple or ash.

However, don't sweat the fact that the Douglas fir 2x material that you have is green. I made a small worktable out of green Douglas fir. All I did was let the 2x material that I had sit around in my shop for a few weeks, mill it down slightly oversize, and let it sit for another week before final milling and assembling. That seemed to be enough to let the wood come to equilibrium, and I have had no problems with the top so far.

[glenn bradley]

I needed something to work on and someday I may build a more beautiful bench but this is working well for me now.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=57879
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=82140

P.s. My BORG doug-fir that acclimated for two months still kept shrinking and warping
(yes it was stored correctly). I figured out that I had so much waste I could have used poplar from my lumber yard and come out ahead (and been done two months sooner). I will never wander into that false economy mindset again.

[Tyler Davis]

yes, the cabinet sits on double-locking casters which are very stable (the same ones I use under my router table).

that's good to hear that the doug fir may be OK. I see that it is about 1/3 less hard than SYP. Will this cause a problem with benchtop durability?

Any suggestions on an affordable vise? It seems like as long as you can mount a wood face on it, and it has a dog stop on it, it would work? Any things to look out for? Could I use the same type of vise for both the face and end, or do they perform different functions?

[Don C Peterson]

I too doubt that the 1x stuff at the borg will be SYP, but you can usually tell SYP pretty easy. It has very pronounced growth rings that are usually yellowish. It is also pretty hard to scratch with your fingernail whereas the spruce and other types of pine are much softer lighter and don't typically have the really pronounced growth rings. Look at the treated lumber, it is almost always SYP.

[Casey Gooding]

Southern Yellow Pine will probably be tough to find in your neck of the woods.
You might find it easier to get some ash. Like Schwarz says, you want your top to me heavy, stable and cheap. So don't be too concerned with what it's made of, just fit those criteria and you'll be fine.

[Tyler Davis]

I will look into a local source of ash, otherwise Douglas fir will be the fallback.

Now I need to select a vise (or vises?). I have seen some benches with only a face vise, some with only a tail vise, and some with both. What type of work cannot be done with only one vise? What would you suggest - getting a single Veritas twin screw, or buying two of these : http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(z1hvtlvxvr1wol45xb4im155)/productdetails.aspx?sku=1000005493&source=GoogleBase

That price seems great - has anyone used the Pony vises that would like to share their experience? I guess I don't know what makes a $200 twin screw vise different from a $50 twin screw vise. enlighten me!

[Casey Gooding]

The Ace vise is not a twin screw vise. It has one screw with two alignment bars. The Veritas vise has two screws that operate together on a chain drive. It basically offers a much larger surface area. I haven't tried one but I've heard they are worth the money. If you are doing primarily power tool work, two vises similar to the Ace vise would probably be fine. Place on on the face and one at the opposite end.

[Narayan Nayar]

A few comments:


I completely agree with Jim and Harry. If you plan to do any hand work on the bench--not just planing, but paring w/ chisels too, the rollers need to be rethought. If you think they're sturdy enough, lock them, then push on the cart with your whole body. If the cart rocks or moves, well, it won't do you any favors when doing handwork. Totally fine for power tool work, though, since the forces created by power tools aren't significant. I've got casters on my bench legs, but they're retracted unless I have to move the bench.
Doug fir would make a decent benchtop. It would have to be really dry though, and I mean really dry. That might not take too long in Arizona after you bring it home from the lumberyard, but you'll want a moisture meter. Doug fir is technically a softwood, but it's a hard softwood. I've never worked with it except for construction projects.
Ash would make a great bench!
Don't limit yourself to a BORG for lumber. There are other lumberyards as well which might have a better selection. The Southern Pine council (http://www.southernpine.com/) doesn't list any dealers for SYP framing lumber in AZ--if that's what you really want, you'll have to drive or have it shipped.
You can always do a front row of square dogs and make a few round holes further back on the bench (holdfasts, other dogs, etc.). But round dog holes everywhere are just fine.
I think it's hard to beat the Veritas Twin Screw. I've got two on my bench. :)
http://www.narayannayar.com/images/workbench.jpg

[Bill Keehn]

My local orange borg only carries SYP as flooring planks and its expensive. Across the street at the brand new blue borg they have SYP construction lumber near the back of the store for almost as cheap as the Spruce-Pine-Fir stuff they have near the front.

I took a good look and it was dense, straight, and free of knots. I'm definitely going to go back on Monday and get a truck load to make a workbench with.