What is your pencil technique?

[Stephen Tashiro]

I use ordinary wooden or mechanical pencils to mark where boards are to be cut. But, as anyone who does this knows, when you are trying to make a pencil mark guided by the edge of a square or the edge of the board, the mark doesn't always match the position of the guide. When I use a board as a guide, I try to hold the face of the conical end of the pencil agains the board. This works well when the guide is standard 2x4 stock. If you try to press the lead of the pencil against a 2x4 guide, you can be way off since the edge of the 2x4 is slightly rounded off. When I use a steel square or ruler as a guide, I suppose I don't have any systematic technique. Usually I'm too lazy to sharpen the pencil often enough so it will be a little dull. I make a trial mark and observe how far off it is. Then I move the guide or change the angle of the pencil to compensate for that. Then I make the mark and try to keep the pencil at a constant inclination angle to the surface that is being marked.

Perhaps the errors in pencil marking are the reason that some craftsmen prefer to scribe instead of draw. But when you work in daylight and the lumber is beat-up then scribe marks are hard to see.

[Prashun Patel]

You answered yr own questions:

1) Don't use a 2x4 as a marking rule.
2) Use sharp pencils all the time OR use mechanical pencils.
3) Use steel, calibrated rules for critical marking.
4) Use a marking gauge when possible for critical measurements.

To the extent possible, I try to cut everything long or proud and then 'shave' down to fit.

[Eddie Watkins]

I use mechanical pencils. If I am doing carpentry I use a .9 lead so it won't break so easily and usually use a framing square. for woodworking where accuracy is more critical I use a .5 lead so I have a thinner line to cut to. I also use rulers I bought specifically for accuracy. Like you, I angle the pencil as best I can to achieve the proper angle to prevent the barrel of the pencil from pushing the line out or the slope allowing it to go in too far.

Eddie

[Raymond Fries]

I use 5mm pencils and have good results. I aso use a razor knife for critical measurements. In addition, I only use steel rules.

I also agree that cutting long and shaving is a good practice for those cuts where precision is desired.

[Richard M. Wolfe]

I use a scribe when the measurement is critical. Otherwise I use a sharp pencil and mark at the mark on the measuring device - tape or rule. I do this on both sides of the workpiece (board, plywood, etc). I then come to the marks with the cutting or routing guide, which is a straight board clamped down but more often a Clamp-n-Guide or similar guide, and clamp or lock it down. I see no need to make a mark across the entire workpiece.

[Jim Kountz]

I always place the point of my pencil on my mark then slide the square or straight edge to it then mark my line.

[Lee Koepke]

......and to adress the "cant see the scribe line" I sometimes rub in some pencil lead or chalk so I can see the scribe line.

I usually regret trying to cut that close to the scribe line anyway, but I still try :D

[glenn bradley]

Watch some Gary Rogowski videos. Place the pencil, slide the rule up to it and scribe your line.

[Jim Kountz]

Watch some Gary Rogowski videos. Place the pencil, slide the rule up to it and scribe your line.

Gee where did I hear this before?? LOL:D:D

[Bill Wyko]

MAN! I'm lucky if I can find a pencil:p:D

[Wayne Cannon]

Placing the pencil and sliding the rule up to it is what I was taught in drafting class.

I use large round "childrens" pencils sharpened to a fine point and tilt the pencil so the side of the lead is vertical and against the rule. I slowly roll the pencil between my fingers as I draw the line so the point wears evenly. I use a marking knife, Xacto knife, or utility knife for critical measurements -- filling them with black or white pencil lead or chalk for better visibility.

[John Lucas]

Manly when panel cutting I use a rasor blade at the mark and preess it into the wood and then move the guide rail to that blade. Works well as long as you dont forget to remoe the blade.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a box of Golf Pencils. I like that they are short. When they go dull, I sharpen once or twice and throw them out.

[Matt Hutchinson]

I use the method of marking that was taught to me in high school furniture design class. Whatever measuring device is used, I bring the pencil tip into contact with the wood at the desired length, and one quick partial twist leaves a clear dot. The dots are usually never much bigger than a 32nd of an inch in diameter, and I was taught to split the dot in half with whatever tool was cutting it. I have found this techinique to have excellent accuracy. Every time I try to make an actual line, results are less consistent.

Hutch

P.S. I use whatever kind of pencil is around, but it always need to be sharp.

[Per Swenson]

Maybe I am wrong.

But there seems to be a awful lot of measuring and marking going on here.

This is the garden path to error.

Make sticks and stops for everything.

You can go on and on and debate pencils, mechanical, carpenter, ticonderoga, whatever.

My theory is if you are sharpening your pencil you are using it to much.

Per

[Matt Hutchinson]

I think I understand what you are saying, but not quit sure. If I make a repetitive part I always make a stop. I try to use dynamic measuring techniques whenever possible (this means taking measurements from the actual work/furniture, not relying on a measured drawing). Is this what you are referring to?

Hutch

[Per Swenson]

No.

From drawing or from the piece in the shop.

I cut a stick from scrap the exact length or width of the application.

Check it for accuracy, label and number it.

If I am making one or a hundred.

I use this piece to set my tools fence to blade or blade

to guide rail. Before I cut one chunk of expensive lumber.

There are no pencil marks on wood that goes through a machine here

to end up in a project.

I can save the dimensions of a one time 12 foot built in wall unit in

a cardboard poster tube. then Build the exact same thing 10 years or ten minutes down the road.

Anytime, no every time you are able to remove numbers from any building equation your chance of error and of "oh crap" moments

decrease proportionately.

In our case this translates to money saved and earned.

In the hobbyists case this turns into project satisfaction,

by not being dissuaded by the error curve.

and a efficient use of ones time and resources.

Per

[Bob Noles]

Per....

Dead on advice.... Thanks!

[Per Swenson]

You are welcome Bob,

Allow we to take this a step further.

For instance on stock rips from 1/8th inch to two,

I have machined setup blocks. Sure, sure I have a Sawstop

with a incra fence, super accurate and all that.

I don't care. I have human error. Make that 3 human error,

two kittys and 2 dogs, all of which have been known to touch that table

saw before I get there.

So set up blocks and sticks.

Its not the measuring device at fault, I measure a 39 inch piece,

the phone rings, I mark 36 and I am on my merry way....

Back to bed, 'cause that was my last hunk of cherry...that matched.

Per

Update

I think I know how to word this correctly.

You want to set your tool to cut the material accurately not
the material to be cut by the tool.

Better?

Per

[Matt Hutchinson]

I guess I use your techniques too, but not for everything. I use a combination of techniques. I do set up the machine to make the part, and I do make test pieces. But I also use pieces that will be used in the final product to set up the machines, not just scrap. As far as 12 years down the road, I think a cut list is sufficient. If concerned, measure the final piece to get the final cut list for the future. Sticks of wood have the potential to warp and twist, and it doesn't strike me as a reliable long term reproduction solution. (Of course, templates/patterns/jigs are another story.) Not to mention you have to store them all, even if they do only take a small amount of space.

I have had good success using the methods I have learned, and I don't see the need to take the process quite as far as you take it. Besides, if someone needs a piece to be closer than 1/64" tolerance, which is attainable using measuring tools, than they really don't want hand crafted stuff.

Hutch

[Per Swenson]

Hutch,

I realize this.

This is my method of work, methods of work are as varied as the

the way we brush our teeth.

I ain't here to convert, merely to enlighten.

Per

[Peter Quinn]

I'm in Per's camp, except I think pencils are more the grease pole to hell than a garden path. Every cut where the accuracy needs to be better than 1/16" in my shop is made referencing a story pole or stick that is shaved to exact length carefully and used to set up a stop. One or one hundred, same technique.

For things like dovetails I use the Mario Rodriguez method taught by him in a class....sharp marking knife following a master template, shade the lines with a sharp pencil as needed. You can drop the edge of the knife into its scribe line and transfer a line accurately around a board much easier than with a pencil. Plus I never seem to be able to find my pencils anyway.

For layout, which is mostly done to keep my head straight and not cut the wrong parts of the material. I use a machinists square or a Starret combo and steel rulers with etched gradations. I may not be able to see a 1/32" anymore but I can still feel it. Its like braille for wood workers!

[Peter Quinn]

Oh, one more thought for highlighting those layout knife lines; I keep one little nasty sanding block with 150 grit sticky back sand paper for really sharpening the pencil. I rub a few strokes on the sandpaper, turn 180 degrees and rub a few more strokes creating a knife edge on the pencil tip that rides nicely in the scribe line. I use dark lead for light wood and have a few white artists pencils for dark species. Even a freshly sharpened pencil or mechanical pencil tends to obscure the knife line and wander in open grained wood, but the knife edge pencil stays true and precise. Just wish I did too!:D

As far as machine set up with live work pieces? I'm smart enough to know that I'm too stupid to get it right on the first try most times. And I always seem to have some small scrap appropriate for set up. If I'm lucky I remembered to mill this scrap with my other stock. Its part of my 15% over on BF needed calculation. Drops and rips make great setup pieces and good camp fires, in that order!

[Matt Hutchinson]

I hope I wasn't coming across as offended by your comments. :)

I suppose that as I get more experience I may find that measuring devices are more cumbersome and risky than I do now. Granted, I hate tape measures, but if I use the same one to complete an entire project I usually do ok. And as far as hand cut dovetails go, there are so many camps on that subject, and I don't have enough experience, that commenting on Peter's observation is pointless, even though I agree. :rolleyes:

Undoubtedly, I will be trying the scrap stick method more now. Even if I don't get 100% behind what other woodworkers do, I find myself trying out their ideas nonetheless. Good ol' curiosity. :D

That's why I love this place. It's almost like a think-tank for woodworking ideas.

Hutch

[Bill Huber]

No.
From drawing or from the piece in the shop.
I cut a stick from scrap the exact length or width of the application.
Check it for accuracy, label and number it.
If I am making one or a hundred.
I use this piece to set my tools fence to blade or blade
to guide rail. Before I cut one chunk of expensive lumber.
There are no pencil marks on wood that goes through a machine here
to end up in a project.
I can save the dimensions of a one time 12 foot built in wall unit in
a cardboard poster tube. then Build the exact same thing 10 years or ten minutes down the road.
Anytime, no every time you are able to remove numbers from any building equation your chance of error and of "oh crap" moments
decrease proportionately.
In our case this translates to money saved and earned.
In the hobbyists case this turns into project satisfaction,
by not being dissuaded by the error curve.
and a efficient use of ones time and resources.
Per

I set stops whenever I can, when I am making more then just one part.

I guess what I don't under stand is when I am cutting say a 4 foot long board and make a stick 4 foot long now how do I use that to make my mark for a cut.
It looks to me I will have the same problem as with a tape or other device to measure the wood. I still have to make a mark of some type to know where to cut the board, I can not set a stop of that long on my saw for that long of a board so I will have to measure it and mark it or use a stick.
So now I am back to the problem of how to use a marking device.

[Bill Wyko]

I will say, the accuracy of Incra does give me a sence of comfort that when I set it, it's right. As far as Per goes, his way must work great. Have you seen his work? It's incredible. Lots of good advice for an unusual post. Good job.

[Per Swenson]

Bill,

Back to methods of work.

I make a living at this so I own 3 (soon to be 4)

miter saws with saw helpers and stops, and a radial arm saw with bench and stops. Here http://www.sawhelper.com/Ultrafence.html#

I wouldn't know how you cut your lumber unless you tell me:D

Per

[Per Swenson]

Bill,(Wyko)

No slouch either, but with the incra....

Everything would be cool, I kinda kidded about the cats and dogs.

But I am not a lone user of my equipment.

I just never know when some one might move that scale.

I keep saying someone, Ahh, you know who.

But my main point is to stick to ridgid habits.

Hopefully good ones. When you start second guessing

well you start hearing that phrase in the back of your head

"Good enough"

From seeing your work...I know good enough, ain't.

Per

[Bill Huber]

Bill,

Back to methods of work.

I make a living at this so I own 3 (soon to be 4)

miter saws with saw helpers and stops, and a radial arm saw with bench and stops. Here http://www.sawhelper.com/Ultrafence.html#

I wouldn't know how you cut your lumber unless you tell me:D

Per

I don't disagree with the way you are using the sticks and if I had your setup I would do the same thing, the problem is I don't.

I have a very small shop and do not have the room for a big layout for cutting long boards so I have to use my table saw or a miter saw that again does not have a lot of room to work in.

So back to the question how do you mark for cuts?
There are a lot of members that just do not have the room or have the equipment to layout work like you have.

Myself, when I do not have a stick or stop to use I measure and put the marker on that point and bring the square to it, then I cut to leave the line.

[Per Swenson]

Bill if Had to use the table saw in a small shop,

I would use a sled with stops.

If I was broke I would make one.

If I was doing well that week,

I would buy a good one.

Same for the miter saw.

The saw helper is for on the job so its portable.

Its expensive, but problem solved.

no money? I would start cutting MDF.

Like I said before, I use a guaranteed stick to cut my finished product.

As Mr. Quinn so aptly noted you shave the stick.

The great fun of building stuff is the mental exercise used

to work around problems. Especially the no room ones.

Bill the pictures lie, I work out of a basement so small

you can't change your mind.

I love a challenge.

Per