New Business Plan

[Steve Clarkson]

What a wonderful forum this is.....I'm so glad that I found it!

I have read numerous threads on here and they have been extremely informative. Everyone on here seems so willing to help each other out. I hope to be a contibutor some day soon.

I'm a middle-aged banker that was downsized about a year ago and I have been looking to start my own business since then. I have looked at literally hundreds of different opportunities and stumbled onto 3D subsurface laser engraving a few months ago. I toured Vytek a few months ago, but unbelievably, they didn't seem to want to sell me one! But while I was there, they showed me some portraits that had been engraved in marble and I fell in love with the concept of laser engraving.
Since then, I have been researching different laser engravers and the Epilog rep is coming next week to demo one.

However, I'm still trying to define my business plan and could use anyone and everyone's help. First, it seems that the majority of people on here seem to do mostly commercial stuff rather than retail. Is it possible to do both? Initially, I thought that selling directly to the public (engraving names and photos on various items) would have the greatest demand, however, most everyone on here seems to avoid selling directly to the public. I would have thought that a retail mall location would be the best concept since you could would get the retail business, yet you could still do commercial jobs. So any advice from someone that operates out of a mall would be greatly appreciated.

Secondly, how profitable can a stand alone laser business be? I know no one on here wants to reveal their annual sales and net profit......but maybe you could give me your idea of what a REALISTIC earning potential would be......under $50,000? Between $50,000 - $150,000? Over $150,000?

I can calculate the gross profit on one particular item (a $40 black onyx necklace from laser bits that sells for $90 has a gross profit of $50), but the reality is that I don't know HOW MANY necklaces I could sell in one year. So my question is.....how many items do you laser on a typical day?

Also, what are the most popular items that you do? Is it photos on 12"x12" marble, wooden pens, wine bottles, ipods, or something else? And to go along with that.....what is the most profitable item that you do? If the necklace takes 10 minutes to laser and you make $50 and a wooden pen takes 3 minutes but and your gross profit is $5, then you would have to do 10 pens (30 minutes) to make the same profit as one necklace.

Lastly, how long does the typical retail job take? I know that the wattage of the laser will tell me how many inches per second that the laser will engrave, but realistically, if someone hands me a photo and wants it engraved on a necklace or a 12"x12" piece of marble or wood.....can it be done while they wait?

I apologize for the long, rambling thread. I promise to keep future ones shorter and more specific!

Thanks again!

[Darren Null]

Commercial v. retail. It is possible to do retail, but you have to remember that the initial computer work is a large part of the job time. If you're making 1 bit for Joe Bloggs or a grillion bits for XYZ. Inc. you're going to spend the same computer time for both. Commercial is obviously better. You can do retail, but if you're organised you can have 'fill in the blanks' type templates to reduce computer time.

I'm in the seriously under $50,000 bracket, but I haven't hit the 'sweet spot' for my area yet. Earnings POTENTIAL is different. Theoretically, if you can get the sales, you're limited only by how quickly your machine can process the jobs and how long you can stay awake.

How many pieces can I laser in a day? Lots, if they're small (or the area to be lasered is small). Less if the lasered area is big. Also, the more powerful your laser is, the quicker you can go for the same result. Stuff that takes me hours on my 10W can be done in half the time by somebody with a 30W and a quarter of the time using a 60W. Of course, if it's something that just requires marking the surface -like cork, say- that I can do at 100% speed I'm just as quick as anybody. Jobs that require cutting, or really drilling into a hard surface, the more powerful your laser is, the better.

Popular items- well I haven't hit the sweet spot. People like anything with their names/photos on. Marble goes down well. Side-lit acrylic has a big "OOh! Shiny!" factor. The list is infinite though.

While you wait retail. The necklace you probably could do, the 12x12" tile, probably not. The job time depends on:
-The complexity of the computer work needed
-The area to be lasered
-The material you're working on
-The power of your machine.
As an aside, you probably don't want to do retail if you're running the shop alone. Customers say interesting things at moments when you need to be concentrating on getting the settings right/positioning the object to be lasered. You can do without this.

EDIT: Sorry most of the answers are vague. Most of the answers to your questions start with "It depends...". I've tried to point you at the relevant factors.

[James Stokes]

When I bought my frirst laser I tried to do the portrates on granite and marble. Every one liked it but did not really want to pay for it. also the quality of photos really sucked big time. I determined quickly that it was very hard to make money doing it.

[Mike Null]

To be quite blunt, the reason there are so many failures in this business is because people think they've got a cute idea and that the world will want to buy it. In reality a miniscule number will buy though a lot will say they will.

If you think you can make a living laser engraving pictures, etc. for retail I wish you good luck.

Engraving is primarily a service business like the dentist, mechanic and plumber. You need to be available when they need you but don't expect great success in trying to motivate buyers with advertising.

I concentrate on commercial work and use a professioanlly done web site to generate leads. I also do some telephone solicitation to a targeted group and occasional email promotions to existing customers.

I avoid retail work--they'll take three times the time to make up their mind and all the while you're losing money.

[Rodne Gold]

Net on an operation of the type you want will be no more than 15%, turning over 10k a month will be good after the 3-6-9 months it will take you to get there.
I recon if you get the thing really pumping , you looking at a take home, for yourself of 2-3.5k

In return you will have to conform to mall rules re trading hrs etc , will tear you hair out doing onesies and dealing with cretinous punters, have a single machine with no back up that you rely on , will have to spend design time over and above what you can charge for on difficult customers , pray like hell your settings and positionings are spot on cos onesies means no practice object, be a marketer , salesperson , accountant , corel designer and laser guru all in one. the list goes on.

D I think it's a viable thingy?------no, would I like to do that in my retirement yrs ? no. Am I trying to dissaude you?....yes/no
It would most likely be far more profitable to set up a home show , and go out and seek industrial and niche market work.
Te way to approach this is to have the capital investment to lose , ie spare cash floating around, and being prepared to lose it.

[Dee Gallo]

Steve,

I have approached this from a different angle than most. The key to my "success" is that I identified a niche market which consists of vintage collectors who have disposable income to give me. I provide a service which is available nowhere else in the world and people beg me to take their work. For this, I am able to make as much as I did before I retired, although this is not bragging since I was a teacher. I started very small, expanding my customer base over the course of 3 years to a point where now I have as much work as I like. I also produce a limited edition product which is appealing to high-end buyers and I don't do any advertising, just my website and word of mouth.

My first laser was a used one which easily paid for itself the first year. I have upgraded to 2 newer models (back up is essential!) one used and one new, which paid for themselves in the first 6 months.

My advice to you is to make sure you are very knowledgeable in whatever you choose to do, and make an excellent unique product. It takes time to master the design aspect, software and hardware, so plan on putting in many hours in the beginning as you learn.

We don't know where you are, and location might play a role in how much business you can get. All of my business is by email and mail, since I'm in a rural area. But I don't get annoying interruptions and have no expensive commute and can write off my overhead.

for what it's worth, that's my perspective, dee

[Frank Corker]

Well I think if you take a bit from all of the last five replies, then you have found your answer, it's bang on the button. There are quite a few who join here believing that they have hit the untapped gold mine, reality is that there is a long learning curve that needs to be taken.

Any number of members here who have had their laser for a year or more, will be able to show you some really nice stuff, they will make it look easy to do and there is a reason for that. It's the year of practice and trials.

If you have friends who are on the commercial side and you can get them interested in taking your stuff quickly from the outset and constantly, then you will have a good chance of success. If you relying on just selling them in the local shops you will have fallen for the belief of all those who arrived for the untapped gold mine.

I am fortunate that my work only needs to supplement a guaranteed income, I should imagine you will also be in that group as you have been a banker with a good pension scheme. If it is to supplement your pension you will have something that gives you an interest and potential for making extra money. If you are sinking everything into it as a full time job I would suggest that you hold your horses.

[Joe Pelonio]

I doubt you will find many (or any) members here with a mall store.

Look into the rent at those places, and you will see that even with the laser running 10 hours a day with steady business it will not pay that rent. I moved to my home when the business park rent for 1,900 SF hit $3,000/mo. Yes, it's less than that in many areas but malls are usually higher than business parks. Without that visibility, though, it's hard to attract the volume of business needed to make money on the gift type items. I'd like to do more of it since it's a lot more fun than the large volume commercial jobs, but those tie up the machine much of the time. For next summer I'm hoping to accumulate enough items to try a weekly summer "farmer's market" booth.

For me the income from the laser supplements the income from signs.

[Scott Shepherd]

Great points by all so far. I'd just like to add my two cents. I don't think you can make a living with a single machine like a laser. You have to understand people don't have the time/energy/luxury/money to run all over town these days. If you do laser engraving, but they need laser engraved key chains as well as their logo on coffee mugs, then you'll be sending them out the door with 1/2 of their order. So what's the incentive to buy from you, when the guy 5 miles down the road does mouse pads, coffee cups, laser engraving, etc.?

We started with a laser for a specific application. That works well, but it's no way to grow the market, it is what it is, more or less (that's oversimplifying it, but you get the point). So how do we grow? We have to be able to offer more services. The more you can satisfy your clients in one stop, the better off you'll be, but you simply can't do that with just a laser.

Some things that work well with the laser- Dye Sublimation, Vinyl Plotters, etc. would be great examples of being able to add items to your business.

Personally, I've never figured out how to make money from retail clients and photos. I haven't found the retail clients who are willing to pay me $50 to 'fix" the crappy photo they brought me, then another $50 for the item. People, in general, won't spend $100 on an engraved tile. Some people will, so I have heard, but I have yet to meet any of them.

[Steve Clarkson]

Thank you all very much for your insights. I guess I have been a little mislead.

Everything I have read (other than here) indicates that although there is a learning curve, engraving is generally like using a printer. I ASSUMED that engraving a photograph on a 12"x12" piece of granite or marble would be relatively straightforward and easy to do.....and the quality would be as good as what I saw when I visited Vytek (granted I did not see them actually laser that item, but the 3D subsurface items that they DID do in front of me seemed relatively easy to do). I also assumed that using a 60-75 watt laser, I could do a 12"x12" granite piece in under 30 minutes.......am I totally disillussioned here? So it's not just....scan, import and print?

I'm in Upstate NY and a kiosk in our local mall is going for $750/mo (but it jumps to $4,000/mo for Oct-Dec). If I could make $40 on that 12"x12" piece of marble......that's only 20 per month (less than 1 per day) to cover the kiosk. Granted I know that a kiosk location would be a challenge due to the venting issues. What am I missing? Does the average parent not want to spend $50 on a picture of their kid etched in marble?

Also, I guess I was surprised that there are so many business failures.....I haven't really read anything about that on the net and the number of used lasers for sale seems relatively small.

So if I don't go retail........does anyone have any good niche market ideas that they'd be willing to share with me? I went to Dee's website and was very impressed with her sets.....but obviously it must have taken her quite some time to develop that market.

Thanks again for all your comments and advice!

[Rodne Gold]

Try this for some less mainstream applications
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22369

[Jim Good]

Steve,

With practice you can make a nice photo etching on marble, granite, or wood. That is not the problem. Getting the customer to agree to give you money to laser a picture on a substrate is the problem.

I think most people cringe at the thought of doing onsie/twosies in order to make some money. Most pictures from customers are not of good quality. Most have backgrounds that need to be removed or the engraving will not look good. Some people will give you a wallet size picture and want you to put it on a 12x12" tile. There is a lot of labor involved in getting the picture ready. If they only want one engraving, you will need to have it look good the first time. It wouldn't pay to go through a trial and error process and waste a couple pieces of marble to get one good engraving completed.

You'll need to find a subject matter that can be marketed nationally or at least regionally. That way you can make a larger volume of the same picture or lasered product. Join Laserbuzz's newsletters or email him and he can get you copies of some of his articles on making money with your laser. It may change the way you look at making money with your laser.

Having said all this, the bottom line is still marketing. You have to spend time finding your customers and doing a good job of marketing to them. Having an awesome product does you no good if the people don't know you have it or can make it. I think 10% of your success is attributed to your product and 90% is marketing! Some may say the 10% is generous!

You better be willing to beat the bushes.

Jim

[Joe Pelonio]

Thank you all very much for your insights. I guess I have been a little mislead.

I also assumed that using a 60-75 watt laser, I could do a 12"x12" granite piece in under 30 minutes.......am I totally disillussioned here? So it's not just....scan, import and print?


Power is speed for cutting. Engraving the power is less important, it's the speed at which the laser goes on the x axis and for a photo on a tile it may be an hour or more for an 8" square. The other problem is that when the dealer does a demo the photo is probably optimized ahead of time, and is not going to be like the ones the customer gives you that need a lot of work to prepare.

Also, your 20 tiles/month to pay the rent does not compute, you have to factor in the laser cost, laser maintenance cost, the tile itself, plus any wasted by errors, electricity, phone, advertising and other overhead.

Look for your own niche market, based on contacts you may already have. For example, you were in banking, so may have contacts to do name badges and desk name plates in an industry with high turnover in the entry levels. Someone active in local youth sports might want to get into trophies.

In my case there has been a lot of income from quilting templates, with contacts through my wife and organizations she belongs to, and her hobby providing me with some knowledge of the quilters' needs. I have also made many items for the classic and custom car industry, that coming from my (recently abandoned) hobby of classic and muscle cars.

[Mike Null]

Scott has made a very good point. A single piece of equipment will not produce nearly the income you need.

If you're still determined to open in the mall with a laser engraver I trust you're independently wealthy and don't require income from this business.

[martin g. boekers]

Greetings,

A few different thoughts. If you are serious about taking this on location check with environmental factors first. You have to have some form of ventilation for the laser, Some places may not let you set up there.

Are you close to a military installation? They usually have an engraving shop in their Arts & Crafts Center. There are all sorts of possibilities for base work. Awards and going aways happen frequently and consistantly.
There is always the possibility of setting up in the Base Exchange Area as a gift and engravig shop if they don't already have one. Even if they have an engraving shop on base there is still potential for a fair amount of work.

Coming from the banking business you probably have quite a few contacts that are already buying from an ASI distibutor. Check them out.

I do engraving of images to many substrates, I come from a graphic arts background and still it takes time to get an acceptable piece. If you have someone from a laser company doing a demo for you pick up a 12x 12 piece of granite from you building supply store (about $7-$8) you supply the image for them to engrave, make it a poorer quality image, flat not much contrast. and have them go through the procudure with you. That way you can see it happen and actually time the process.

One thing I would consider if price is an issue go with higher power as per larger table size. I can't speak for everyone else but it has been rare for me to use the 24x36 space I have available. Power is good!!

One other thing if you would like to go to location think about a second smaller table top model. That way you could take it to car shows, art fairs etc. Still they can be a hard sell for year round.

One last item as I am sure we all can attest to, It's not as easy as it sounds! Be prepaired to spend may long hours making things happen and to stay with the curve of new products and techniques. Most of all you have to enjoy it if you don't I might not be worth the effort.

Hope this helps a bit.


Marty

[Frank Corker]

Also, I guess I was surprised that there are so many business failures.....I haven't really read anything about that on the net and the number of used lasers for sale seems relatively small.


Well the thing is that they are a really good toy as well. Very stimulating for the mind and the satisfaction of being able to turn out beautiful things sometimes outweighs sad old money. That is a fact in my opinion!

.

[David Darnell]

"The Best way to make a small fortune with a Laser Engraver is to start with a bigger fortune" - Shamelessly stolen from a old saying about farming

[Pete Simmons]

"The Best way to make a small fortune with a Laser Engraver is to start with a bigger fortune" - Shamelessly stolen from a old saying about farming

Works well with Aircraft and Boats also!

[Joe Pelonio]

I'll help with the original question about profits with this example.

This is wholesale, periodic production job, so is priced lower than retail. There are 100 of these, which take about 15 minutes each laser time on Rowmark
Lasermax, 2 fit on a 12x24 sheet.

I'm just finishing for delivery tomorrow, and did them over a week while squeezing in other laser jobs and working on vinyl sign jobs while these engraved. Total profit for the job is $900.

[David Fairfield]

If you already have sales experience with a proven product, and can use a laser to make more of them them better, faster and cheaper, then you're on to something. But buying a laser and then fishing around for a product and an audience to sell to, its pretty risky.

On the other hand, like Frank said, it is a very interesting and fun tool, so if you can spare the money and the time, you won't have any regrets.

I've had my machine about for 3 years of trial and error, and just beginning to see profitable results now. I could make a lot more money at a desk job, but hell with that!

Dave

[Steve Clarkson]

Joe, does it REALLY take an hour or more to engrave a portrait on an 8" tile (even with 120 watts?)???? And in your other example, are you saying that your profit was $9 per piece......or $36/hr? If so, now I see why you guys don't think it's a good idea to start a laser business from scratch!

One more question......if power is for cutting and not engraving....are you saying that a 25 watt machine will engrave a photo in about the same time that a 120 watt machine will?

Thanks again for your input.

[Dee Gallo]

Steve, you didn't mention if you have any computer graphics skills. That seems to be a huge factor in time for a lot of people. I spent the last 30 years teaching art, commercial art and computer graphics so that was the easy part for me - but designing is still a time thief. Also, I am able to integrate lots of techniques into my work which other people might not be able to do easily. But I can tell you from experience that a new student will spend about 4 months, working all day on the computer and THEN finally be able to do WHATEVER he wants on both paint and draw programs. Before that, you spend a lot of time learning as you go, taking the long way around work and tweaking what might not be the best design solution anyway. For example, if you can't draw on your own, you are stuck with using clipart all the time and those searches can be more time consuming than making the image yourself. Then, altering the clipart so it will work with a laser is another ball of string to unwind. Many people on this forum have recommended getting the software to practice with before you get your laser. That's good advice. For me, using the laser is the easiest, least time spent on my work. It's just a tool you have to learn how to use. That's the fun part.

cheers, dee

[Mike Null]

Since I don't engrave on stone I probably should defer to those who do but 120 watts for engraving is overkill. About 80 watts would be tops for engraving if you had a superfast machine like Trotec or Xenetech.

My guess is that there are many more retail operations with lasers of 40 watts or less than those who have more.

Whatever you choose to do the key to success is your ability to market your business. I personally know of people, one in NY, who floundered with the idea that they could engrave cute stuff on stone.

Impulse buying in the engraving business is nearly non-existent.

We are an occasion based business (retailers) who do weddings, anniversaries, birthdays, graduations, retirements etc.

Recently a number of Things Remembered franchises have bit the dust and those are pretty complete engraving operations with a full array of engravables. I suspect that excessive rent was one of the killers.

[James Stokes]

When you are engraving photographs the time depends alot on the dpi you are using. I have a 100 watt epilog and a 35 watt Vytek. With the 100 watt I engrave a 12 x 12 stone in about 8 minutes on the Vytek the same image will take about 28 minutes. The biggest time eater is the prep on the photos. Some I can have ready in 2 or 3 minutes others I may spend a day or more to get close to what I want.

[martin g. boekers]

How do you get an engraver off the front porch?
Pay him for the pizza

[Joe Pelonio]

Joe, does it REALLY take an hour or more to engrave a portrait on an 8" tile (even with 120 watts?)???? And in your other example, are you saying that your profit was $9 per piece......or $36/hr? If so, now I see why you guys don't think it's a good idea to start a laser business from scratch!

One more question......if power is for cutting and not engraving....are you saying that a 25 watt machine will engrave a photo in about the same time that a 120 watt machine will?

Thanks again for your input.
Yes, I have done wedding photos on 8" tiles and it's taken about an hour. I only have 45 watts but like I said the 120 watt doesn't engrave any faster, it's the motor speed that affects engraving time.

In my example the profit was $900, I didn't say how much I charged per piece or per hour, the profit is after overhead, materials etc. Yes, you could say that the profit per hour on that job was $36/hr and you could say it was $9 each. The point is that I was producing other things and revenue with other work during most of that time while they were running, using other equipment.
There are some materials where the power allows a faster run speed for engraving, such as hardwood where I might run at 30% speed with 45 watts, someone else with 120 watts might run at 100% speed to burn the same depth.

Many, if not most though, such as this job, I run at 100% speed. I just have to use more power than a 120 watt, but the speed is the same with the same motor setup.

[Steve Clarkson]

James, Now that is what I was assuming.......that a 12" stone could be done in fifteen minutes or so with the right powered laser.

Dee, I have some computer skills, but not Corel.....but I assumed that I could learn it enough to use it in a short time.

When I was thinking of a mall, I was thinking that I could have 15-20 standard items (12" stone portraits, wooden photo albums, onyx necklaces, ipods, etc.) and that if I was doing them over and over and over again and simply changing the photo and text, that I would get to be pretty adept at doing it.....so it wouldn't be like doing a brand new project every time.

[Darren Null]

I have some computer skills, but not Corel.....but I assumed that I could learn it enough to use it in a short time.
Don't. Corel is not intuitive. Also, it has issues with every other piece of software. And file formats. You're OK with .TIF, provided you don't use any of the fancy TIF options. Just giving the bloody program data it isn't going to bugger up is a 3-month learning curve all on it's own if you're starting cold.

[Harry Radaza]

my 2c

I do run a mall kiosk type outlet. No I cannot put my machine due to space and vent issues. I did however put an artist inside the kiosk with a computer so he can prepare the orders for me.

Actual machines (3) are in my shop. only 1 machine is dedicated to the mall stuff. the rest are for volume jobs. As for the mall operation... i would love to shut it down. But... it is bringing in about 30% of my sales. I could do with out the backjobs that clients bring back. I do photogs on wood. I could also do without the pesky clients from the mall.

As for the volume jobs, well, they keep the rest of the machines busy. I have a niche market and do subcontract work for a lot of the other companies here so they come to me.

If you are in it for the mall type thing you are in trouble.

[Rodne Gold]

Stone is bleached by the laser , not really "engraved" so 2 x 25w for the price of 1 x 75w will double the thruput of the single machine as you dont need 75w.
We have 6 x 30w machines and have NEVER had to turn any significant job away cos of lack of power.
Your best bet as an "add on" machine if you have a laser is a conventional computerised engraver/light duty router.
the 2nd best add on would be a digital print and cut machine like a Roland SP300 which can do stickers and banners and vinyl cutting etc etc.
The biggest problem you face is that you are getting into a field in whaich you are totally inexperienced and are competing agianst folk who are far more experienced than you and have far less overheads and have capital equipment that is almost or fully paid for , they will kill you in the market.
You are a banker......would you advance a loan or invest in or even advise someone that came to you with your plan?
Despite my doom and gloom , I do have a suggestion.
Buy one of the cheap glass tubed chinese machines , $3-5k , you can play with it and dip your toes in the water without it being a huge financial stress and if it doesnt work , well 5k is no where near a 30-50k loss .....

[Scott Shepherd]

You want fast tile engraving, visit this site

http://www.lasertile.com/lasertilemaster.html#null

and click on the "video here" link just above the photograph of the machines. Not sure I'd like to be competing against this with a standard laser system.

[David Fairfield]

I wonder if the laser engraver companies could help you out with a variety of business plans, or a newsletter profiling successful users? Its in their interest to have that sort of information available. Ask for references so you can verify results.

Dave

[Angus Hines]

Thats fast so fast it looks like somebody actually engraved the auto feed table too.


You want fast tile engraving, visit this site

http://www.lasertile.com/lasertilemaster.html#null

and click on the "video here" link just above the photograph of the machines. Not sure I'd like to be competing against this with a standard laser system.

[Dan Hintz]

You want fast tile engraving, visit this site

http://www.lasertile.com/lasertilemaster.html#null

and click on the "video here" link just above the photograph of the machines. Not sure I'd like to be competing against this with a standard laser system.

This explains the speed:

3-axis high speed galvo marking head
When you're not moving an optical head and gantry platform back and forth, you can really crank up the speed. Looks like the focal length is a couple of feet, so they can do some fairly wide tiles.

[Scott Shepherd]

No disrespect meant to anyone (don't you hate it when something starts with that?), but I haven't met too many people who are running successful businesses who will post their business plans and strategies online. I think you'll find they offer up a lot of advice (very good advice), but I wouldn't expect you'll find too many people openly putting up there bread and butter ideas on a public forum, despite the appearance of it on forums.

[Mark Winlund]

I cant resist..... after more than 25 years at this, I must say that most new technologies don't make much money for by themselves in the beginning. Your customers have to know about it and shift their way of thinking. After all these years, I still make money on rotary engraving, because everyone knows what it is, and what it looks like.

So many lasers are now sold to people that are essentially hobbyists. It is a fun machine to use, and it will do a lot of things that couldn't be done before. That ususally does not translate into a money making business. You really have to already be in the engraving business to make it work.

It's kind of sad to read the posts of people that have spent their retirement money on an expensive machine, and then rather plaintively say "what do I do now?"

Making money in the engraving business is not easy.... it requires lots of hours, business skills, artwork prep skills, and a big financial cushion so that you can last a few years while you make mistakes.

Mark

[Sylvia Mossbrucker]

Ive only been doing marble photo for about 4 months but ITS NOT SIMPLE AT ALL!!!!! Im good with computers, actually real good, but im learning photoshop,photograve,coreldraw,corelpaint,universa l laser systems print driver, epilogs setting, power settings, speed settings, dpi, ppi, contrast, brightness, how to fix a bad photo, etc.,etc.,etc..........granid im using a 120 watt epilog and a 75 watt universal so i must learn both, THE SETTINGS are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT AND THE MACHINES ARE QUITE DIFFERENT!!!!! So just keep in mind when you said (I ASSUMED engraving a 12x12 would be easy................) NOPE, not even close!! Im not trying to burst your bubble at all but I have never im my life had a learning curve in a job position like I have at my current lasering job!!!!!! Wish you the BEST OF LUCK...and listen to everyone here they have great advise and experience!

Sylvia


Thank you all very much for your insights. I guess I have been a little mislead.

Everything I have read (other than here) indicates that although there is a learning curve, engraving is generally like using a printer. I ASSUMED that engraving a photograph on a 12"x12" piece of granite or marble would be relatively straightforward and easy to do.....and the quality would be as good as what I saw when I visited Vytek (granted I did not see them actually laser that item, but the 3D subsurface items that they DID do in front of me seemed relatively easy to do). I also assumed that using a 60-75 watt laser, I could do a 12"x12" granite piece in under 30 minutes.......am I totally disillussioned here? So it's not just....scan, import and print?

I'm in Upstate NY and a kiosk in our local mall is going for $750/mo (but it jumps to $4,000/mo for Oct-Dec). If I could make $40 on that 12"x12" piece of marble......that's only 20 per month (less than 1 per day) to cover the kiosk. Granted I know that a kiosk location would be a challenge due to the venting issues. What am I missing? Does the average parent not want to spend $50 on a picture of their kid etched in marble?

Also, I guess I was surprised that there are so many business failures.....I haven't really read anything about that on the net and the number of used lasers for sale seems relatively small.

So if I don't go retail........does anyone have any good niche market ideas that they'd be willing to share with me? I went to Dee's website and was very impressed with her sets.....but obviously it must have taken her quite some time to develop that market.

Thanks again for all your comments and advice!

[Rodne Gold]

There is only one secret to making money using a laser and that is MARKETING!!!!!!!!
It really is as simple as that..............

[Peter Vasic]

Steve,

The retail thing, in a mall.....with a laser...selling trinkets.....that require an enormous learning curve to produce an image on..........................

Then when youve worked out that it truly isnt going to work ( which it isnt).....and you decide you need to go commercial, because your laser payments are due and you dont have the time to chase the work, because your still trying to work out how to use all your software..and you need to price your work so you can clear your overheads and you dont have a metal or plastic shear to cut your metal and your customer wants an engraved i.e rotary look.phew....

Then you realise you are actually in the same market place as everyone on this forum and 10 other forums and all those not on forums, trying to take their business.......:confused:

I got up yesterday and walked into a bank and said to the person behind the counter....I want to be a bank manager, I can count and I watch him through the window over there, sitting behind a desk, counting , writing and talking to people, reckon I could wing it within a few months very easily;)


Peter

[Craig Hogarth]

Personally, I would love to have a mall location. Every Things Remembered I've seen in a mall has always had customers in it. I don't know how much they do in sales, but they definitely don't have a problem getting people in the door. While rent would be considerably higher, I'm sure you wouldn't have spend nearly as much on marketing than would with another location.

[Joe Pelonio]

Personally, I would love to have a mall location. Every Things Remembered I've seen in a mall has always had customers in it. I don't know how much they do in sales, but they definitely don't have a problem getting people in the door. While rent would be considerably higher, I'm sure you wouldn't have spend nearly as much on marketing than would with another location.
One other thing to consider at a mall is who shops there, and to have items that those people will buy. Around here, for example, except for the holidays when most everyone is forced to shop, the malls are full of teenagers who hang out there but don't really buy much other than electronics and clothes.

Many of us avoid the malls, and prefer to shop online or at specific stores and ignore the others. Recent studies I have seen on it shows the greatest number of mall customers at ages 14-17, next is 18-24. Ages 35-44 is the smallest group. Also, the ratio of females to males is 63%-37%.

I don't remember where I got this but it was in my notes from research I did a few years ago, and was from a recent University of Texas study.

[Craig Hogarth]

Joe, I really never looked indepth into it since the good malls are over 90 min away from home. But going off your stats, even if female age 35-44 make up 10% of the mall patrons, you're still talking thousands of shoppers weekly. The thing I like about the mall is that there is a ton of money being spent on luxury items there. That's my biggest problem. We get a lot of people who love our stuff, but most don't have the money to spend.

While I'd love to give the mall a shot, I never see it happening. It'd probably take about 50 12x12 tiles or more just to pay overhead and that's just way too much work without staff.

[Bill Jermyn]

All of the above. I had the idea of making a killing off all the nifty stuff I could make with the laser. Problem: no customers. Go after large commercial and manufacturing, retail is not worth the effort.

[Craig Hogarth]

It is possible to make a living doing retail, but not without a storefront or a very very good website.

[Peter Vasic]

It is possible to make a living doing retail, but not without a storefront or a very very good website.


Craig,

Why go to all the trouble of tying up thousands of dollars in machinery, inventory, software c etc etc. to "make a living""

when a good resume will get you a well paid job, with a tenth of the stress, car paid for, phone paid for, medical benefits, holidays, public holidays, sick leave, bonuses, incentives??????????

Sounds like making a living is like investing everything you have into working out of a shed in your backyard, having a bad website and eking out a living.

:confused:

[Scott Shepherd]

This is probably one of the best threads on the laser forum in my opinion. I think it shows that the sales pitch being used is far from reality. So many people who have been doing this for any period of time all say the exact same thing.

Great, great thread, and in my opinion, should be a sticky in this section of the forum.

If anyone is thinking about buying a laser, this is a MUST read for them.

[Mike Null]

Peter


when a good resume will get you a well paid job, with a tenth of the stress, car paid for, phone paid for, medical benefits, holidays, public holidays, sick leave, bonuses, incentives??????????



That may work down under but many of the people here are trying to supplement retirement income (frequently a necessity) or have been down-sized or merged or exported out of a job.

We have lost our industrial base and with it the hundreds of thousands of jobs that went with it.

When that happens the jobs you're talking about are few and far between. They then go to much younger and cheaper people who may also be better educated.

[Joe Pelonio]

Peter



That may work down under but many of the people here are trying to supplement retirement income (frequently a necessity) or have been down-sized or merged or exported out of a job.

We have lost our industrial base and with it the hundreds of thousands of jobs that went with it.

When that happens the jobs you're talking about are few and far between. They then go to much younger and cheaper people who may also be better educated.
With all of the layoffs these days, there are many well educated and experienced people fighting for $10/hour jobs, and those are about all that are available. Most without benefits. I have also heard of many companies either ending or cutting way back their contribution for medical. Still, I would think it very difficult to make a living with just the laser unless you have good steady production jobs.

[Bob Davis]

Now that it's all looking doom and gloom, try taking a different approach; what about buying an existing business? The marketing and arranging have all been put in place, there is a record of turnover and profit, you get training, you don't face the same huge risks that a startup incurs and you know what you are getting.
Certainly there are lots of examples of people making a go of a startup from day 1, but there are many more examples of it being a complete failure. Unless you know exactly what you are doing and have a really good plan (and a bit of luck!) it is likely to all end in tears. A purchase can be a much safer and ultimately more profitable arrangement.

[Craig Hogarth]

Still, I would think it very difficult to make a living with just the laser unless you have good steady production jobs.

Very true. I'm only doing lasering but plan on adding a CNC hopefully within a year. I'm still in the learning process and I'm not ready to take on an another challenge yet.

But for those who are only buying a laser, there are plenty of other services/products you can offer without buying equipment. Outsourcing works quite well and considering the amount of work involved (basically faxing an order), it is much more profitable than lasering.

[Miguel Pinho]

Hello

Do you know what type of material lasertile used to do the Elvis image on their website?

[Dan Hintz]

Hello

Do you know what type of material lasertile used to do the Elvis image on their website?
Uhm... they used LaserTile... that's the product.

[Phil Thien]

Personally, I would love to have a mall location. Every Things Remembered I've seen in a mall has always had customers in it. I don't know how much they do in sales, but they definitely don't have a problem getting people in the door. While rent would be considerably higher, I'm sure you wouldn't have spend nearly as much on marketing than would with another location.

Malls are hurting for tenants right now, and will often offer short-term leases and even free rent for several months to get you to try one.

[Brian Knuckles]

I've talked to the guy over there that runs there sales..His name is Danny. They won't give you ideas in running, but he will share ideas with you on what others are doing to make money.

I'm sure the more you buy from him, the more info he'll give you...lol =)
It doesn't hurt to ask

[pete hagan]

I hope as a banker you were exposed to the volume of business failures compared to startups. 50% or better in the first year alone.

I have to echo everyone above. Look for niche markets in your area where the clients will pay for YOUR service. Yes you are selling a product that costs "x" and you'll sell for "Y" but really what is the spread between X & Y?? It's what the market will bear not necessarily what you are worth or the amount of time spent making the item. FIND MARKETS THAT PAY FOR YOUR TIME / EFFORT!

I would strongly suggest that you explore the opportunities where you make premium rates from your products and the laser is simply creating parts or all of the product. The goal is that the client is paying for your experience and service more so than buying an item engraved. What you'll see online here is that there are sign shops with lasers in use, some different shops that provide trophy / awards with a laser in use (they may have manual as well), specialty business that use the laser to create goods used in their products or services like cutting plexi for pinball machines (someone here does that and has a great website I just don't recall who) and then those people who use the laser to supplement their pensions / other income. These last folks are the ones that can afford to spend the time to make a product right and only get “Y” from it.

Here’s an example. Cracker Barrel restaurants has this little game on the table which is a triangle of wood, lots of holes and golf pegs… You’ve played it I’m sure. The little company that makes this product for them makes ~~400,000 units a year to sell through CB (The story is on the table to read about). They do not use a laser (they should for the engraving) but I’m certain have some automated machine that cuts, drills, stamps this item for very little cost. That’s the ticket and I don’t mean finding some restaurant chain to sell your widget at 10X the cost with your net being 3X cost. If you do find that product and chain then send me a commission or a free lunch for turning you onto the idea.

So the delima is to find the need where the laser will provide a working solution, or design something where the laser is part of your toolkit to create the product and sell for a high profit margin. Selling lasered items at a retail kiosk without LOTS of other specialty items is a quick way, IMHO, of losing lots of money. I think you’d make more selling snow cones in the summer at baseball games that you would with 12 months in a retail kiosk. But that’s my opinion and I may be wrong..

Bets of luck…er…BEST of luck.

Pete

[Dan Hintz]

Here’s an example. Cracker Barrel restaurants has this little game on the table which is a triangle of wood, lots of holes and golf pegs… You’ve played it I’m sure. The little company that makes this product for them makes ~~400,000 units a year to sell through CB (The story is on the table to read about).
Maybe 400k units the first year? Once each table has a game, I don't seem many replacements being made. I'm sure they sell a few in the gift shop, and there will be a few more for new restaurants opening up, but a continual 400k/yr? I would have some serious doubts about that #...

[pete hagan]

I had a hard time believing it as well but I had already asked this question of a regional mgr and he said it was the most consistent seller in the gift shop over all other toys they carry. I think it sells for about $3 USD. I agree I couldn't believe it myself but after asking this guy I believe it may be correct.
From CB website - -There are 588 stores and they have:
Net Sales: $2.38 billion (fiscal year ending August 1, 2008)
Per Unit Averages: 7,350 guests per week / $4.18 million in annual sales
Here’s a picture of what I'm talking about:

http://shop.crackerbarrel.com/images/200/606154.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:openLrgImg('../shopping/PopLargerImage.asp?Sku=606154&Name=Peg Games');)
Even if the guy is making $0.50 per unit that's a nice 200K annually, nothing to sneeze at and they ARE made in the USA!

OK I just searched and found this little bit of info on the CB site:
http://www.crackerbarrel.com/games-kids.cfm?doc_id=217

Peg Game HistoryThe Peg Games we use at Cracker Barrel Old Country Store® are made by Qualls and Sons Novelties, a local Lebanon, Tennessee manufacturer. Years ago, Ollie Qualls and his son Adrian worked in a 10' x 10' room, drilling holes and counting pegs by hand. Today, they make over 18,000 games per week exclusively for Cracker Barrel. You’ll find the Peg Game in our retail store and at last count, we’d sold over 1.5 million.

Holy BAT S%#T Robin... that's more than the little table display indicated. That's a niche product I'd take any day!

Pete

[Dee Gallo]

Simply amazing. Just goes to show, there is a niche for everyone out there.

:) dee

[Dan Hintz]

I'll follow Frank's lead, then, and eat my hat... those numbers do seem reasonable.

[pete hagan]

Steve, If you read through the posts you will find some very valuable advice in that buying a laser to start a business with no proven product / demand is the quick way to frustration. Retail is hit or miss and frankly it takes the same amount of paperwork to generate a $20 item as it does a bulk sale of $1,000. The work will be different and you will be making lots more of something but the management headache is the same.

Here's a suggestion, take a drive to a regional state park which may have a gift shop and look around. Are there custom items for sale? Ask where they get them etc.. Now go to a local winery and same thing. Look at any location where the customized nick nacks are something you can produce from scratch or pre-made products that are lasered. That is one opening to production work.

On the other hand I am constantly amazed, and jealous, of the artisans on this site. Their products are pieces of art who’s value is a matter of the heart and market. If you are artsy then the laser is one hell of a tool for many mediums. If you are a wannabe artisan, like me, then it can help you produce something of added value IF you have a market for it. If you want to really explore options then take a week to discover every conceivable item that can be cut or engraved with a laser. From industrial gaskets, paper figures, electrical panel plates, water / conduit ID tags, custom machine control panels, etc… and that’s not really doing the laser justice. Find a market that is not terribly depressed right now and focus on what goods can be created for that market and that will PAY for goods. That means stay away from real estate, education, automotive and a variety of other markets. If you want to start small go to places that are recession proof. Funeral homes, weddings, bat/bar mitzvahs (sp) etc. It would be only small orders but allow you to perfect your craft as you get ramped up for sales.

I recently completed a series of wall panels for a local businessman that were scenes showing his business. (I’m waiting for pictures installed). It was a custom job that came through a contractor. (wooden business cards…hint hint) I spent probably 20 hours on the graphics and another 40+ engraving on these large wall panels. Luckily I bought a machine that would pass thru a 36” wide panel so I could create large scenes. The contractor supplied the material and I simply engraved. It was a blast to experience and a huge learning curve in registration to create large displays. BTW Oak is NOT the best material to laser but it still worked out well. The finished product was 8 panels 3’ X 6’ and I made $4000 for the job. I had targeted making $75.00 per hour machine time and $100 per hour graphics / programming time. I missed that mark but came pretty close. Will I get another like this? I’ll never count on it but I did land a nice order for room ID plates for a hotel that is upgrading their meeting room space. It was a friend of the end client that saw the panels when the contractor brought them in to install and immediately saw a way to upgrade what was already planned. I’ll be making (30) 16” X 20” frosted glass plates with the identifier engraved on the reverse side. They supply the product again…happy happy! I’ll make more in hourly rate from this job than from the big panels and much easier but I only got this job because of the last job because of those wooden business cards I handed out at a local business breakfast I attended LAST YEAR! I never thought of either opportunities they found me because I was out shaking hands and meeting people.

So GO MEET PEOPLE and think of products that are needed. I do wish you the best and if you work hard at getting in front of enough people you’ll wind up with sales. I think it was the Fuller Brush company that promoted knocking on doors…..


Pete

[Bob Savage]

This is probably one of the best threads on the laser forum in my opinion. I think it shows that the sales pitch being used is far from reality. So many people who have been doing this for any period of time all say the exact same thing.

Great, great thread, and in my opinion, should be a sticky in this section of the forum.

If anyone is thinking about buying a laser, this is a MUST read for them.

Here I am, bumping another older thread, but you're absolutely right. I just ran across this one, and there's a LOT of good info in here.

Of course, I'm doing what somebody said is not a good idea, and thinking of using a laser without already having a niche, but this thread is certainly making me think more practically. I friends with successful business owners in HVAC, Electrical, Masonry/Tile, Machining, etc. It seems that perhaps I should really start diving into CorelDraw (already have that), possibly buy a "cheapo" laser (I *really* want something US made, but...), and treat it as a hobby, then a side business, and perhaps a business eventually.

Urgh... I'm just really tired of the IT industry!

Thanks to everybody for the well balanced input given in this thread. Like Scott said, this one should be stickied.