Star screws for Kreg?

[Dave Norris]

Hi,
Been using my Kreg pocket hole jig a lot lately and I love it. Except for the square drive screws! I converted to star drive screws a while ago, and they are awesome. With the Kreg square drivescrews though, I keep stripping/slipping the screws. Does anyone know of any star drive screws for this?

Thanks!

[Joe Chritz]

Never heard of them.

McFeeley's doesn't carry them and neither does CSH so you may have a really tough time finding them. Those two places are where I get almost all my fasteners.

Not that it is an answer to your specific question but make sure you have a 6" bit and that it isn't worn out. I have no slipping problems with any square drive screws.

Joe

[glenn bradley]

Also no help on star-drive pocket screws but like Joe, I am curious. I actually slipped on a square drive yesterday. First time in 1000's of screws and I had to hit a piece of pipe to do it. Check your bit's condition and fit, you may save yourself a search.

[Mike Circo]

I'd ditto the reply to make sure you have the right sized bit for the right size square drive head. The bit should fit so tight in the screw that you can carry it horizontally in the bit.

I've never been even close to stripping out a square drive (Robertson) head, ever. Heck, a few times I had the drill clutch too high and thought I'd break my wrist first!

[Alan Schwabacher]

You can get star drive (Torx) pocket screws from screw products: http://www.screw-products.com/gold.htm#pockord

Don't forget that you'll probably need a long driver bit to go with them.

[Lee Schierer]

The only time I have a square drive slip is when I don't have the bit lined up with the screw. Once I get the alignment right the screw goes right in. It only takes a few degrees of mis alignment to make the screw slip on the bit.

[jerry nazard]

Dave,

I have found the Apex brand of driver bit to be excellent - especially in square drive.

-Jerry

[Dave Comissiong]

ok guys;
Here's the facts. Robertson screws (square heads) were developed by a Canadian (Robertson) before Mr. Philip's developed his star head screw. Because Mr. Philip's got in with the beginning of the auto industry at the turn of the century Philip's star head became the standard for American industry although the Robertson is a better screwing head. Better invention/ better marketing. A little Canadian pride!!

[Clifford Mescher]

ok guys;
Here's the facts. Robertson screws (square heads) were developed by a Canadian (Robertson) before Mr. Philip's developed his star head screw. Because Mr. Philip's got in with the beginning of the auto industry at the turn of the century Philip's star head became the standard for American industry although the Robertson is a better screwing head. Better invention/ better marketing. A little Canadian pride!!
History? Philips head was DESIGNED to cam out. When building planes during the war the guns that drove the screws had no clutch. Philip's heads were made to cam out when they were seated. With todays drills using a clutch, the square is better. People in the know will tell you that torx is better then square. Clifford

[Dave Comissiong]

Hi Clifford;

Yup it's history. And the Philip's screw head precedes WW11 plane construction. As does Mr. Robertson's design. It may have been a coincidence that the designed torqued out for aircraft construction but that was not it's original intent. And the square head is still the better designed screw. Long live the Canadian Beaver and Roberston's screw!! :)

[John Lucas]

McFeelys now carries the star drive screws: look here: Flat Head Yellow Zinc T20 Star Drive

[Jim Becker]

Star drive and Phillips are two different animals; the latter designed to cam out, the former being a popular format for a "more secure fastener to driver relationship". But I agree with some others...I've never cammed out a square drive screw yet other than a few stainless steel ones and that's typical of SS. The regular McFeeley's screws I use sometimes even get recycled for other projects if I pull them out of something no longer needed.

[Rob Blaustein]

I've never cammed out a square drive screw yet other than a few stainless steel ones and that's typical of SS.

I typically have to set my clutch setting pretty low with the Kreg square drive screws or I overdrive them and they end up just turning in place (in plywood, at least). But as to Jim's comment re SS--I was wondering what was happening to me. I recently noticed cam out with some exterior SS screws I was using, as well as some SS trim head screws I had to use recently. Hadn't realized SS was softer.

[Clifford Mescher]

Hi Clifford;

Yup it's history. And the Philip's screw head precedes WW11 plane construction. As does Mr. Robertson's design. It may have been a coincidence that the designed torqued out for aircraft construction but that was not it's original intent. And the square head is still the better designed screw. Long live the Canadian Beaver and Roberston's screw!! :)

Square-drive head is an American clone of the Robertson that has a square hole without taper. Due to the lack of taper, the hole must be oversize relative to the screwdriver, and is much more likely to strip than the Robertson.

The Phillips screw drive has slightly rounded corners in the tool recess, and was designed so the driver will slip out, or cam out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_out), under high torque to prevent over-tightening. The Phillips Screw Company was founded in Oregon in 1933 by Henry F. Phillips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_F._Phillips), who bought the design from J. P. Thompson. Phillips was unable to manufacture the design, so he passed the patent to the American Screw Company, who was the first to manufacture it.


I hope this clarifies a few misconceptions . Clifford

[Dave Norris]

Thanks for all the replies Guys.

Alan, thanks for the site, that is perfect.

Ultimately, Lee is right, or in my case at least. It seems I'm always just a degree or two off, and the bugger slips like crazy. When I can drive the sq dr standing up in broad daylight it works fine. It's when I'm half-kneeling/half-laying under something twisting up and driving with one hand it becomes a real challenge. I've found I can drive the torx screws one handed though.

[John Schreiber]

Square-drive head is an American clone of the Robertson that has a square hole without taper. Due to the lack of taper, the hole must be oversize relative to the screwdriver, and is much more likely to strip than the Robertson.
I have seen people say this before, but perhaps I've never seen a real Robertson drive screw or driver, I haven't seen it. The patent is long expired, I would be surprised if modern square drive used a lesser technology. Are they really different?

I mean no offense in questioning you Clifford, but it's one of those things I've heard a number of times, but doesn't make sense to me and I haven't understood.

[Clifford Mescher]

I have seen people say this before, but perhaps I've never seen a real Robertson drive screw or driver, I haven't seen it. The patent is long expired, I would be surprised if modern square drive used a lesser technology. Are they really different?

I mean no offense in questioning you Clifford, but it's one of those things I've heard a number of times, but doesn't make sense to me and I haven't understood.
John. It has annoyed me so decided to investigate. The Kreg square driver is short, stubby and not tapered. The robertson square (like the ones people order from Lee Valley) are longer and tapered. That explains why they cam out in the Kreg square holes. The bite that takes the torque is on the 4 corners rather then the 4 sides.
If you do not believe me compare the square driver that Kreg sells to the ones from Canada like Lee Valley sells. You will see. Clifford

[John Gornall]

25 years ago I bought my screws made by the Robertson company as were the bits. They were made to Robertson standard. The bits fit the screws. You put a screw on the bit and it stayed there until you drove it. The tip of the bit had a little 4 sided pyramind point that guided the driver into the screw. The bit fit the screw so well the bits lasted forever. Then other countries found this screw and they were made by other companies. There became many square drive screws and they were not made to any standard. There were tapered side and parallel side bits and the square indent in the screw head seemed to be almost random sized. The drivers fit the screws loosely and a screw wouldn't stay on the bit. The bits were worn out after less than a 1 box of screws - they started selling boxes of bits. The end of the bit was flat with sharp edges and hard to engage the screw. In other words a great screw system went for a complete dump. Knowing just how well this sytem worked in the past has had me throwing a few drivers against the wall in frustration the past few years. The key to square drive bits is to buy drivers and screws from the same supplier and make sure they fit together well. If you buy cheap screws and Borg drivers they probably won't fit together and you'll have problems.

It would be great if a square drive standard was written and all manufacturers followed it but that's not likely.

Over 100 years ago Mr. Robertson even standardized the driver colors - #0 - yellow, #1 - Green, #2 - Red, and #3 - Black.

[Jim Becker]

Clifford, the "square drive" screws I get from McFeeley's have the taper. In fact, they stick like glue to the excellent driver bits I also get from them. (The drivers/bits are all with the Robertson color code, too...)

[Clifford Mescher]

Clifford, the "square drive" screws I get from McFeeley's have the taper. In fact, they stick like glue to the excellent driver bits I also get from them. (The drivers/bits are all with the Robertson color code, too...)
Thank you, I will remember that when time to order again.Clifford

[John Schreiber]

I went to the shop and took a look at my square drive screws and drivers to get some empirical data.

I have a #2 square screwdriver and a couple different lengths of #2 driver bits that I purchased from McFeely's about three years ago. I've also got screws that I purchased from them at that time and some purchased in the last few months. I've also got some Kreg brand screws and one Kreg driver which I just purchased recently.

The tips of all the drivers are all very slightly tapered. The Kreg and some of the McFeely's bits have a slight pyramid on the tip. Any combination of screws and drivers from those two manufacturers result in a fit which has no play when fully engaged, but which has increasing amount of play when less than fully engaged.

Based on my very small sample, I think it's likely that the current McFeely's and Kreg screw/driver combinations are all well matched. Unless real Robertson screws have some other characteristics I don't know about, I can't imagine that they are any better.

Again, not trying to be argumentative, but for the current Kreg and McFeely's products, I've got to conclude that square drive is either the same as or as good as Robertson.

[Clifford Mescher]

I went to the shop and took a look at my square drive screws and drivers to get some empirical data.

I have a #2 square screwdriver and a couple different lengths of #2 driver bits that I purchased from McFeely's about three years ago. I've also got screws that I purchased from them at that time and some purchased in the last few months. I've also got some Kreg brand screws and one Kreg driver which I just purchased recently.

The tips of all the drivers are all very slightly tapered. The Kreg and some of the McFeely's bits have a slight pyramid on the tip. Any combination of screws and drivers from those two manufacturers result in a fit which has no play when fully engaged, but which has increasing amount of play when less than fully engaged.

Based on my very small sample, I think it's likely that the current McFeely's and Kreg screw/driver combinations are all well matched. Unless real Robertson screws have some other characteristics I don't know about, I can't imagine that they are any better.

Again, not trying to be argumentative, but for the current Kreg and McFeely's products, I've got to conclude that square drive is either the same as or as good as Robertson.
Could be Kreg has different suppliers at various times. My long Kreg driver has no taper. As previous poster said, there should be standards.Clifford

[John Gornall]

I understand there are no "Robertson" screws any more. The Robertson company is gone and their equipment was shipped to asia. I was told that by a person involved in screw manufacture and this was repeated to me by a Lee Valley service rep however I recently bought a box of screws from Lee Valley that came in a box labeled Robertson. They are good screws.

I was also told that the building where Robertson maufactured screws has been taken over by another company that manufactures - screws.