Why are we obsessed with thin walls?

[Bob Hallowell]

Lately I have been leaving some of my bowls with thicker walls but I know to a turner's eye most of the time thinner is better at least with the "ART" peices. Is it to show off our skills?

Today I went to the state college arts festival and the peoples choice festival 5 miles away. While there I saw woderful HF's with the most perfect finish I can only dream of, segmeted peices the were just plan awesome and so forth. But in my eyes as I like narly wood I saw a turner there from Bucks county named Nathan Favors who's work set a new bar for me www.bowlmakeronline.com (http://www.bowlmakeronline.com). His work just plain old amazing me most were big peices turned on a 24" oneway and his website just doesn't do them justice but most of his burl peices and NE were at least 3/4" thick most alot thicker than that and they were stunning it reinforced in my eyes what I like and what is pleasing in my eyes. Plus it opened my eyes that I get stuck in the mode of it has to be this shape or that shape and I don't experiment enough. I had a chat with him and we discussed the thin question and he says he sees that all the time people obsessed with thin but he makes what he likes.

So why are we?

Bob

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bob I attended a demo at the AAW Symposium given by Larry Hasiak. He said one thing that really opened my eyes. He asked why do turners think they have to have bowls with 1/8" wall or hollow a HF thru a 1/2" hole? He said do one of each and get it out of your system. I also talked with Al Stirt. He said ya know thin bowls are nice. He said the same thing Larry did. Do one and get it out of your system. He said I want a bowl that has a little heft to it. I want one I can eat ice cream or cereal out of and not worry if it is going to crack. He said he likes bowls 1/4" minimum and he said that includes NE's. It just kinda got my attention.

[Dennis Puskar]

Bernie I appreciate what you are saying in your post this is so very true thank you.

Dennis

[Jon Lanier]

From my minimal experience, I think it might be the challenge and for the 'artsy' factor. But for a bowl to be a working bowl, I would think it's got to have some 'heft' to it. The Cherry bowls I do that have my 'homemade' food safe finish are heft... probably around 3/8's. I just think that is something people would look for in a 'food' bowl.

I'm going to do a 1/8" bowl/HF someday, but until I get the intestinal fortitude to do it... I'm still happy.

[Geoff Hanha]

Bob your guy is so right, to many turners are bothered about others what they will think. The person to please is yourself, it helps if people like your work if you are going to sell it. You make a peice thin thick depends on what it is and as long as it looks good and pleasing then it works, its a bit like turning boxes lots of turners think a box has to have a lid that is a tight fit and goes plop when you take it off, agian mainly to show of a skill, but it does not matter if it is a tight fit or loose fit, its the look and feel and the beauty of the wood, its always nice to get praise from other turners but even a good piece does not press some turners buttons, so do it for you.
And just think that if you make all your turnings thick then you have less waste to throw away and clean up:D geoff

[Paul Andrews]

Good thought provoking question!

Why do some turn thin, just to demostrate their skills. Some delicate artsy pieces are enhanced by their light weight. Pierced pieces must be thin in order to pierce them. Beyond these reasons I can find no other reason to turn something thin, unless that is what the turner likes!

As stated by others, certain pieces, like natural edge and burls and functional pieces need to be thicker and in my opinion look better thicker!

[Gordon Seto]

Those who turn the piece up side down looking at the bottom upon picking it up, running their fingers across the surface, trying to stick the finger inside the opening of hollow form and admiring for thin walls are one of us. Sorry, they are unlikely to buy your turnings no matter how they say they like it. If they really like yours, they may try one. For the rest, they may have different standards.

[Geoff Hanha]

Those who turn the piece up side down looking at the bottom upon picking it up, running their fingers across the surface, trying to stick the finger inside the opening of hollow form and admiring for thin walls are one of us. Sorry, they are unlikely to buy your turnings no matter how they say they like it. If they really like yours, they may try one. For the rest, they may have different standards.

So if a turner does not turn something thin then his standards are low. I don,t think the thickness or thinness comes into play with standards. and i can admire workmanship without liking the piece.

[Jim Becker]

From my minimal experience, I think it might be the challenge....

There you go...exactly what my answer would be. But my favorite pieces from all those I've turned happen to be somewhat "thick-walled". That said, I think that "consistent" wall thickness is a better goal than anything to do with actual thickness outside of making the wall depth appropriate for the piece being worked, both for use and style. There obviously will be exceptions relative to the "consistent" wall thickness for certain designs, but in general, it's a good "best practice", especially when working with greener wood. Less problems with cracking, etc.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Bob - most of my bowls are somewhere around 1/4" to 3/8" thick with mixing bowls closer to 1/2". I like the heft to the bigger bowls. I have turned a few salad bowls 1/8" to 3/16" thick but find I regard them as almost fragile because they are so light weight.

Hollow forms I find have a certain surprise factor when folks pick them up. If you turn a large HF and have the walls close to 3/8" - 1/2" thick - then the HF feels fairly heavy. Take the same HF with 3/16" inch walls (or less) and the folks are surprised at how light it is. Couple the light weight with beautiful wood and you have a possible sale.

I haven't been out there selling to the public - yet - but have had a number of folks tour my shop and check out what I have made. While everyone has different tastes I find that the majority like a bowl with a little more heft to it and a HF that is fairly thin. Could be the difference between functional and 'art' but thats what I've experienced so far.

[Bob Hallowell]

Steve, I do agree with you on the HF being thinner.

Jim, Nate is from your nek of the woods have you seen his work?

My wife was the main reason for this post, she keeps telling me to leave my NE's alot thicker than I do and when we saw Nate's display I had an Aw haw moment. I told her later the feeling I had after seeing his display was like catching a 30" trout which in Pa is quite rare. Before I was trying to stick with the norm for wall thinkness and form, I am sure now as I experiment I will make some ugly peices but every once in a while I think I will nail one that looks a little different.

Bob

[John Shuk]

I think the wall thickness should be appropriate to the proportions of the piece. I've seen thin walls that should be thick and vice versa.

[Gary Herrmann]

Hm. Interesting thread. My last couple bowls the walls were a bit thicker, but I think I did a better job on the curves and the consistency of the thickness. I'll think about that next bowl - well, without "thinking" about it too much.

[Curt Fuller]

I guess I was brought up with the mentality that value is measured by the pound. Most of my bowls and hollowforms are guaranteed to break a toe if you drop them. I'm impressed by the thinness some people can get, but that's from a turner's viewpoint. I don't think thinness alone makes it a piece of art, nor do I think bulk keeps it from being a piece of art. And besides, it seems that with all the new turning gadgets and gizmos, turning thin is beginning to equate with how much money you're willing to spend on the tools to do it. I wonder how long it will be until someone markets a CNC hollowing system that you step back and watch create beautiful works of art.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, Nate is from your nek of the woods have you seen his work?

Yes, I know Nate. Nice fellow. He's very talented, too. I don't like all of his pieces, but that's just fine...art is like that.

[curtis rosche]

i think that part of the reason that we like thin so much is because of the skill, and what we are comparing it to. it takes some skill to be able to get it the perfect thickness with out breaking and to have it consistant, so some of use go for that challenge. we are also in our mids weather you know it or not, comparing the simple things like classic bowls and cups, to what we use every day, which are thin, and not heavy.

[Rick Mills]

I have only been turning about a year and a half, and I noticed to so many turners it's macho to see how thin you can make the walls of a bowl or hollow form, and how skinny you can make the stem of a goblet. It maybe a little more artistic if it doesn't end up breaking, but I like my stuff to be a little thicker. I also find the thinner I make my green wood bowls the less they move or crack, at least it seems that way.

[Paul Engle]

Aaah its just the man juice thing .:eek:... chrome plated X gizmo :o...whatcha macallit :confused: in our manly quest to be the best thing:rolleyes: or the fasted or the smallest ;), ah yep the macho too much coffee jangly nerves thing :D.... hey mom ... look what I did ........... or ~ look honey see how thin it is???? huh fraied nerves thing , could be : now ! its time for miller thing, oh yea did I say the macho thing ? I know one thing ....wait for it ................... it's cool and " I like it " sort thing.....now if I cud just sell the thing.....be famous and move to hollywood the Jeb and the family thing....oh and git me a big red truck thing , no . Maybe a Ferarri thing. Scheessshhh.

[Mike Minto]

Bernie, as an aside, I attended the same 'class' by Larry. I gave much thought to what he said about wall thickness and entry hole size, and agreed with him as well. There are exercises done for their own sake, and then moved on from. He also said he does not finish the inside of his hollow forms, which I have gone 50/50 on since trying to make some. I think I'm leaning towards leaving them more natural, just putting some basic finish on the inside to minimize drying problems. Wood turning has been around for quite a while now, but the modern form is still evolving. It will take a while for an accepted standard to arrive (which will change from generation to generation, like anything else), I guess, but like anything else, go ahead and do what makes you feel good. Like the old saying goes, 'I may not know art, but I know what I like'. Mike

[Gordon Seto]

It will take a while for an accepted standard to arrive (which will change from generation to generation, like anything else), ...

That is a good point.
I believe there are still some old timers practice this: They use some wood putty to plug the holes (or cover them with some green felt dots) that were left behind from the screws on the bottom of vessels. Or the bottoms were sanded flat. Today, with the popularity of chucks, the standard has evolved.

The picture was from a bowl that I saw couple years ago at an exclusive gift shop in California. This local artist was the only person allowed to harvest fallen timber from this place.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/my_my_album/Gift_Shop_bowl_1.jpg

[Bill Wyko]

As most of you know, I do segmenting. In this application turning thin helps prevent wood movement that can break loose glue joints. If I do a turning 12 inches or shorter, I try to make it 1/8th thick. If it's bigger than that I'll go 1/4 to 3/8 inch thick. I have blown many vessels to pieces but fortunately with segmenting, you can cut out a ring and try again. I would never hold thickness as a way to judge someones skills. The beauty in the art of turning is the ability to express ones self. That's why there is no set way. I say go for it any way you like:D

[Bernie Weishapl]

Mike I had been in e-mail contact with Larry and a couple of others before the Symposium. I just pour some Antique Oil in the inside and roll it around till it is all covered. That is about all I do. Some of mine that I have put a collar and finial on I don't even bother to finish the inside because no one can get a finger in or see the inside anyway. Larry did say some of his he paints black on the inside which I am going to try one of these days.




Bernie, as an aside, I attended the same 'class' by Larry. I gave much thought to what he said about wall thickness and entry hole size, and agreed with him as well. There are exercises done for their own sake, and then moved on from. He also said he does not finish the inside of his hollow forms, which I have gone 50/50 on since trying to make some. I think I'm leaning towards leaving them more natural, just putting some basic finish on the inside to minimize drying problems. Wood turning has been around for quite a while now, but the modern form is still evolving. It will take a while for an accepted standard to arrive (which will change from generation to generation, like anything else), I guess, but like anything else, go ahead and do what makes you feel good. Like the old saying goes, 'I may not know art, but I know what I like'. Mike

[Nathan Hawkes]

Mike I had been in e-mail contact with Larry and a couple of others before the Symposium. I just pour some Antique Oil in the inside and roll it around till it is all covered. That is about all I do. Some of mine that I have put a collar and finial on I don't even bother to finish the inside because no one can get a finger in or see the inside anyway. Larry did say some of his he paints black on the inside which I am going to try one of these days.


So do you get the inside totally smooth with a scraper, or do you leave some ridges? Just curious. I'm just getting into HF's myself, and had a blowout yesterday because I got it too thin. Would've been specacular---large cherry with big natural voids. Oh well. I glued it back together as a reminder! :D

I'm just wondering---I roughed out a couple HF's and DNA'd them, but does everyone sand the insides as well as the outside on small HF's?? I don't know what people expect to see. I'm thinking of bringing a few pieces to some galleries around town, but won't be bringing any HF's until I get better!!

[Cody Colston]

Turning thin takes skill, it is most often visually pleasing and in the case of hollow forms and vases, it adds surprise when the piece is handled because it's so light.

However, matching the thickness to the overall proportions is more important to me. Rarely do I try to go much below 1/4" on anything and larger bowls are as thick as 1/2". I don't like the crude looking really thick pieces that look like they weren't fully completed. Nor do I like a piece that is thin at the top edge and thicker towards the bottom. That feels "clunky" as a noted former member here says.

I also believe a lot of people exaggerate the "thinness" of their turnings when displaying pictures. I've seen many pics touting a 1/8" wall thickness that most definitely weren't.

I do as Bernie said for finishing the inside of pieces. I swish around some Danish Oil or whatever I'm using for finish. Occassionally, I'll sand the inside of a Hollow Form if it has a wide opening but usually just leave the finish that the round scraper on my Hollowmaster gives.

[Tom Keen]

Good topic! Im into the technical aspects of turning as well as the artistic/aesthetic.

Sometime I turn things as thin as I can.. I do this mainly for myself because almost all the time.. no one but me and and another turner appreciates it.

Ive found that form and aesthetic values are what potential customers are looking for.

Things I do worry about... form,texture, balance, proportion with no visible tool or sanding marks. I look for interesting wood and try to incorporate the natural features of the wood into the piece. I make sure the piece is stable and not going to fall apart.

Wall thickness is important only because it is a visual element of the piece and part of the form. Some pieces look better thick/heavy ... some pieces look better thin.

Ive been reading about Japanese and Koren pottery... no those people really knew what they were doing... lots and lots to teach us humble wood turners.

Tom

[Harvey Mushman]

Today I went to the state college arts festival and the peoples choice festival 5 miles away. While there I saw woderful HF's with the most perfect finish I can only dream of, segmeted peices the were just plan awesome and so forth. But in my eyes as I like narly wood I saw a turner there from Bucks county named Nathan Favors who's work set a new bar for me www.bowlmakeronline.com (http://www.bowlmakeronline.com). His work just plain old amazing me most were big peices turned on a 24" oneway and his website just doesn't do them justice but most of his burl peices and NE were at least 3/4" thick most alot thicker than that and they were stunning it reinforced in my eyes what I like and what is pleasing in my eyes. Plus it opened my eyes that I get stuck in the mode of it has to be this shape or that shape and I don't experiment enough. I had a chat with him and we discussed the thin question and he says he sees that all the time people obsessed with thin but he makes what he likes.


Bob

Bob, I also attended The People's Choice Festival. I saw Nate's work and thought that it looked really "clunky". To me, the bowls didn't flow or have a balanced feel to them. Now I do like thicker walls, but some of his were too thick.

On another note, Nate had some work stolen from his booth after hours. 3 pieces, I believe.

[George Guadiane]

Small opening, thin walls, perfect finish, all are often (if not always) sought after by the big collectors. In my experience (and I'm sure there are exceptions), those three things are paramount. Add in high quality (exotic and/or figured) wood and you have most of the high priced woodturning artists. The only OTHER thing you could add is embellishment.
So, if you'r not trying to compete in that marketplace, and/or you're having fun with whatever you're doing, keep doing it. I run the gamete, personally, ranging from near disaster to "clunky." A lot depends on the wood, how much I have of it, how much more there is and how hard I will have to work to get it into the shop.
I like thin, I like testing myself, and don't mind blowing up pieces, most of the time. I usually do the construction worker song & dance when I do, but then I just grab another piece of wood and go at it again.
On the other hand, some of my favorite pieces have been REALLY heavy. I think that if you are doing what you like, yopu are doing it "right."
Can't get much heavier, thicker, clunkier than this one, one of my friends dubbed it "Dog Bowl." Sold right away!

[Bob Hallowell]

Bob, I also attended The People's Choice Festival. I saw Nate's work and thought that it looked really "clunky". To me, the bowls didn't flow or have a balanced feel to them. Now I do like thicker walls, but some of his were too thick.

On another note, Nate had some work stolen from his booth after hours. 3 pieces, I believe.

Isn't funny how everyone see's something different, I've done hf's, thick bowls, thin bowls and so forth but I absolutely loved his work. In my opinion he was the best of all the turners in both festivals. Now others turners see his work and it's not for them. It is unfortunate that someone stole his work. I can say he was the first turner I ever considered buy work from. And I did see lots of people bussing around his tent. I seems like he was doing well.

Bob

[Bernie Weishapl]

Nathan on all my turnings inside I get smooth. Richard Raffan said something at the Symposium that also stuck in my mind. He said the inside of anything you turn should be as pleasing to the touch as the outside. So yes I do smooth and sand the insides of my HF. I use a figure 8 calipars to measure. When I get close I measure a lot. Also I don't DNA HF's.



So do you get the inside totally smooth with a scraper, or do you leave some ridges? Just curious. I'm just getting into HF's myself, and had a blowout yesterday because I got it too thin. Would've been specacular---large cherry with big natural voids. Oh well. I glued it back together as a reminder! :D

I'm just wondering---I roughed out a couple HF's and DNA'd them, but does everyone sand the insides as well as the outside on small HF's?? I don't know what people expect to see. I'm thinking of bringing a few pieces to some galleries around town, but won't be bringing any HF's until I get better!!

[Burt Alcantara]

When I began turning HFs I made the walls as thin as possible with openings as small as possible. After finishing the forms and forgetting about them for a while I found, when picking them up, that they were unnaturally light. Felt like paper, not wood.

Contrast this with picking up logs, sawing them to size and mounting them either on a bandsaw or lathe. They are heavy.

I've begun to make my forms have a weight that is appropriate (to me), to their size and form. When they are lifted they have more of a natural feel (to me). They feel like wood.

Burt

[Lee DeRaud]

When I began turning HFs I made the walls as thin as possible with openings as small as possible. After finishing the forms and forgetting about them for a while I found, when picking them up, that they were unnaturally light. Felt like paper, not wood.That pretty much sums up my attitude toward this subject. Of course, it doesn't help that I also collect pottery: my idea of what's "natural" is a lot heavier than the average turner.

Just to give you an idea...this one is pretty popular with my friends, ended up making two more of them as gifts:
92502
Ambrosia maple, about 8" diameter, and the "inside" is hemispherical, so it's pretty hefty.

[john taliaferro]

i am just to tight to pay shipping to the coast for outlaws er a inlaws.

[Harvey Mushman]

Isn't funny how everyone see's something different, I've done hf's, thick bowls, thin bowls and so forth but I absolutely loved his work. In my opinion he was the best of all the turners in both festivals. Now others turners see his work and it's not for them. It is unfortunate that someone stole his work. I can say he was the first turner I ever considered buy work from. And I did see lots of people bussing around his tent. I seems like he was doing well.

Bob

That is what is great about art. Everybody can see something entirely different and still enjoy the work.

Nate's sense of proportion and mine are polar opposite.

Now, Dennis Elliot turns some really big thick walled bowls and I get a totally different feel from them.

BTW, What day were you there? I was at the People's Choice on Saturday with a bunch of Penn Staters who were in a hurry to see both shows, so I had to make a quick lap around the festival. There was a guy there ( almost directly across the field from Nate) with an incredible wall hanging. It was huge. I was being hurried by my group so I didn't have time to check it out closely. It looked like about 4ft long with lots of carving and some metal embellishment. Couldn't tell what kind of wood it was (dark reddish). From the brief eyeball that I got of it, this thing was really wild looking (in a very cool way). I returned on Sunday to take my time, but the guy was gone. I wondered if you saw the piece or not. I understand that there was some wind damage Saturday night and a few artists left.

[Mark Hix]

What a great topic! I have come back several times to it to read the responses. It seems like sometimes the wood has to decide. I have a couple of favorite bowls. One has walls so thick you might think it was a work in progress. I stopped because it felt right; good weight in proportion to the size. Another decided on it's own that thin was in. The third had a lead slug hidden inside. If I turned thin, I lost the slug and the slug adds alot of interest to the peice. No HF's yet and only a handful of segmented peices, so far, they tend to be thinner for me but I can see some in the future that are going to be thicker to give a different feel and depth.

My 2 cents.

[Allen Neighbors]

I agree with most everybody... thick or thin... just depends on the piece, and my attitude at the time.
I finish the inside of hollowforms that have smaller openings by tumbling. I have a tumbler that rotates 59rpm. I mount the chuck on it, holding the hf. Throw in some small granite rocks (from the wife's carport) and some carbide chunks, tape the opening, and let it spin for several hours. The inside gets fairly smooth, but it's rather wavy... depending on the wood... because the soft grain abrades quicker than the hard.