Veneer Question

[Samuel Brooks]

I am going to make the Hall Table from the Woodsmith Edition 147 (http://www.woodsmith.com/issues/147/) and I purchased some flaming birch. My local supplier resawed one of the pieces and it is currently 3/8" but I still need to finish the surface prep, I am estimating final to be 1/4". I am trying to decide on the backer material to use for this project.

I do not have a vacuum press so contact cement or yellow glue are my options, I have used contact cement on several occasions so I am comfortable with that option. The top will be 10 3/4" wide by 54" long.

I am considering using MDF but I do not have enough of the Birch to veneer the back side of the MDF. Since Birch moves allot should I be worried about veneering 1/4" to the MDF should I try to resaw it even thinner?

Recommendations / comments?

Thanks,

Sam

[Todd Bin]

You should resaw it (or sand it) thinner. Like 1/16". Also you need to veneer the back. You don't have to veneer the back with birch. Anything else will work.

[Mike Henderson]

I would not recommend contact cement. You can clamp it with a piece of MDF on each side and cauls to press it together. Use waxed paper or plastic sheeting between the veneer and the MDF used for pressing to make sure the MDF does not get glued to the veneer in case any of the glue leaks through the veneer. You can use any inexpensive veneer on the back.

Urea formaldhyde (plastic resin) glue is good for veneer work and has a long open time. You can also buy some veneer glue from Joe Woodworker.

I'd also recommend making the veneer thinner than 1/4" - the previous recommendation of 1/16" would be good.

Mike

[Dewey Torres]

You just get some great advice from Mike on this one... especially about the contact cement!

DEwey

[Samuel Brooks]

I am going to try and plane down one of the 3/8" pieces. I will post back after I have given it a try. I wish I had a sander but that is not in my cards at this point ;-). But I am always looking for a reason.

I am going to make up a planer sled to try and control the SNIP. I will not be able to deal with much SNIP at this thickness. I have never tried planing something so thin. Also the face has allot of figure to it so I will be putting in a new set of blades.

[Mike Henderson]

I'd go with thicker veneer before I'd risk ruining the piece. Just use a piece of MDF as your "sled". You can use masking tape to hold it down - take short pieces of masking tape, maybe 6" or so, and wrap it in a circle with the sticky side out. Clean the MDF well and then stick the masking tape to it. Then put the veneer on top of that. Or get some thin double stick tape.

Run it through the planer with the lighest of cuts and stop with the veneer thicker than you might want. Quit if you start getting bad tearout.

To reduce snipe, put a piece of scrap the same thickness as the "veneer" at the end of the veneer (make sure it's long enough to span the two push rollers in your planer - usually about 7" on a lunchbox planer). That way, the scrap will get sniped and not your veneer.

Or find someone with a sanding machine and pay them to sand it down for you.

Mike

Mike

[Greg Cole]

Mike gives great advise about anything veneer related.
Here's my $0.05 (inflation) I've planed some shop sawn veneer with the sled approach but learned the hard way that ya need not use some super sticky stuff to hold the veneer to the sled, like say carpet tape (the double sided duct tape stuff). Pulling the veneer off the sled is fatal....:eek:
Making-painters tape is your friend here.
Also with chippy stuff like flame birch definately dampen the surface a wee bit before planing also. Skewing the sled through the planer will also help a ton. I've done a bunch of curly maple this way and it works pretty well, but a sander is optimal.

Greg

[David DeCristoforo]

Woah. Good advice but hold up on trying to plane down that material. It is way too thick for veneer but it will be at risk if you attempt to plane it in it's "raw" state. I would lay it up on panels first and then plane down the panels to thin the veneer. Even if your planer cannot accommodate the finished width of your top, I would lay up the veneer, plane the pieces and then join them to get the finished width. Shoot for 1/8 - 3/16" final veneer thickness (1/16" is a bit thin IMMHO for "sawn" veneer). My favorite glue for this type of veneer work is plain old "white" (Elmer's) glue.

[Cary Swoveland]

I see from the picture of the hall table that the flaming birch piece is probably not more than about 8" wide. You therefore should be able to resaw the 3/8" thick piece into three or four 1/16" pieces of veneer on most any bandsaw. It would be a crime to plane a special piece of wood from 3/8" to 1/16". If you don't have a bandsaw, this is your opportunity to buy one. Else, find someone with a bandsaw to do it for you. (A Creeker, perhaps).

Alternatively, save the board for a future project and buy some veneer. See, for example, veneersupplies.com for a nice selection.

Another option for applying the veneer is to iron it on, after applying Heat-Lock glue: http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=86_40&products_id=737

Cary

[Samuel Brooks]

I would not recommend contact cement. You can clamp it with a piece of MDF on each side and cauls to press it together. Use waxed paper or plastic sheeting between the veneer and the MDF used for pressing to make sure the MDF does not get glued to the veneer in case any of the glue leaks through the veneer. You can use any inexpensive veneer on the back.

Urea formaldhyde (plastic resin) glue is good for veneer work and has a long open time. You can also buy some veneer glue from Joe Woodworker.

I'd also recommend making the veneer thinner than 1/4" - the previous recommendation of 1/16" would be good.

Mike

Here is a picture of what I have so far.
92417

They are both 1/4" now. I am concerned that taking them any thinner might be an issue with more tear out. I did wet the surface which helped allot but I still had issues. Should I veneer it, then plain it some more?

I was looking at using this glue. Titebond Cold Press Veneer Glue (http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5054&mode=details#tabs). I do no have a veneer press but I can put some MDF on top and clamp up.

I have never tried to edge glue 1/4 stock. Any suggestion on how to go about doing that? I put some clamps on it to test and it bowed up with the slightest of pressure.

Thanks for everyones comments.

Sam

[Mike Henderson]

One way to edge glue it is to cut yourself two pieces of MDF that are not quite as wide as the wood to be glued, and as long. Put waxed paper or plastic between the wood to be glued and the MDF - this is very important or you'll never get it apart.

Make sure the two pieces fit together perfectly edge-to-edge. If you have any gaps, they're going to be difficult to deal with after you glue them together.

Put glue on the wood to be glued and put it between the pieces of MDF. clamp the MDF together lightly. Now, use some clamps (many clamps) to pull the wood to be glued together but don't clamp too hard. Finally, clamp the MDF down tight. Set aside and let the glue dry.

When dry remove from the clamps and the MDF and sand the excess glue off the "veneer". If the two pieces were the same thickness, they should match perfectly. If they don't, you can sand them smooth. Use a straightedge to make sure you don't have any hollows on the glue side. Then glue to the substrate as discussed earlier.

The other way to address it is to treat it as veneer and tape it together with veneer tape. Then glue the "veneer" to the substrate as discussed earlier. A bit more risk in this approach that you might have a gap where the two pieces join.

Good luck!

Mike

[Al Navas]

... I have never tried to edge glue 1/4 stock. Any suggestion on how to go about doing that? I put some clamps on it to test and it bowed up with the slightest of pressure...
Samuel,

You are right - thin veneers do not take clamps very well at all. This is how I do it - and I thank John Fry for suggesting the modified procedure, in which tape is used on the BACK of the veneer; NO tape is used on the side of the veneer that faces UP:


After you have a nice, even edge on the pieces, use blue painter's tape pulled across the seam, and spaced every 2-3 inches - pull on the tape to stretch it some, and make sure it is flat on the pieces
Place a strip of the blue tape along the entire length of the seam, and press firmly
Now, turn over the taped pieces, and "open" the seam slightly, to allow glue to get in the seam - you will have to use bricks, or something heavy, to hold the assembly open at the seam without collapsing on you
Place a fine bead of glue along the seam, and press together by placing on a flat surface - do NOT place any tape on this side!
Use bricks to put weight on boards placed close to the seam, but NOT overlapping the seam - use wide boards to press evenly on the veneer with additional bricks
Allow a couple of hours for the glue to set; but, after about 45 minutes of so, remove some bricks and boards to allow access to the glued seam, and clean/scrape all excess glue from the seam with a scraper, or something flat; REPLACE the boards close to the seam, and replace the bricks on top of the boards
The bricks become clamps, to hold everything in place, and to keep everything flat:

http://sandal-woodsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/1-brickclamps.png


The following is the glue line, visible under everything else:

http://sandal-woodsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/1-glueline.png


You can read some additional details at my blog. Search using the terms "veneer brick", and you will find the post in question.


.