First Ball & Claw, Critique & Advise Requested

[Robert Rozaieski]

Well, actually, this is my second attempt at carving a ball and claw but my first finished B&C attempt and my third attempt at carving anything at all. The first B&C attempt was all wrong right from the pattern so it went in the fire :mad:. This one isn't done yet as it needs a little more refining and cleanup but I need some other sets of eyes besides my own to help me with where it needs a little more work. I've been looking at it for so long that I think I'm probably overlooking some areas that need some more work.

I used basswood figuring it was an inexpensive wood to learn on and becaue everyone recommends it as a good carving wood. I actually found parts of it a little splintery and it didn't take well to the rasp at all, it just got fuzzy. I think a hardwood like cherry or walnut would work much better, albeit a little more difficult due to being harder. It is based on the Philadelphia style but not intended to be an exact copy of anything. It's more of my own personal interpretation and spin of the Philadelphia style foot. I think the top knuckle looks a little wide on most of the toes and the web-tendon junction looks a little shallow to me but again, I think I've been looking at it too long. Please offer any advise and critique you may have. All comments, good or bad are welcome as they all help me to learn where to focus my efforts. I'm just starting to carve and need all the advise I can get :D! Thanks!

[Robert Rozaieski]

Here are some closer pics of the foot.

[Jack Camillo]

nice work. i always considered such almost grotesque, personally. too real looking if they are done right. just me.

[Ralph Okonieski]

Very realistic! It is an excellent first attempt IMHO.

[mike holden]

Very nicely done!
Nits to pick (you asked!) The transition from knee to ankle is to sudden, the area below the knee shoul taper to the ankle. Yours appears to be missing the calf as it were.
Second nit is the rear claw. Most that I have seen have only two knuckles and an indent where you have the third (topmost)

But these are my opinions only.
Again, great job!
Mike

92363

Mine is the unfinished one, Phil Lowe made the finished leg.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks Mike! That's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I knew something didn't look right about the back claw. I was working from some really small pictures and none of the pictures I have had any real detail of the rear claw so I kind of worked off the pics of the other claws. I think removing the top knuckle on the rear claw will be a big improvement. Yours is beautiful! I wish there were some classes on this stuff local to here. The only classes I'm aware of are at the local Woodcraft (New Castle, DE) and they have nothing that interests me at all. Just very basic classes. I can't afford the time or expense to travel away for a multi-day experience so I'm basically teaching myself from pictures, books and magazine articles.

[Phillip Pattee]

Robert,

I sure haven't acquired the skills yet to produce a B&C, looks like a fun project. You are looking for feedback, so here goes. It looks like you have a claw centered on the point of the leg that will face out--I think that the foot should be rotated basically 180 degrees so that the claw is centered on the inside.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Robert,

I sure haven't acquired the skills yet to produce a B&C, looks like a fun project. You are looking for feedback, so here goes. It looks like you have a claw centered on the point of the leg that will face out--I think that the foot should be rotated basically 180 degrees so that the claw is centered on the inside.
Phillip,

Thanks for the feedback! Not sure I understand what you mean. Do you have a picture? Rotating the foot 180 degrees would just result in the back claw being in the front and the front claw being in the back. A B&C has 4 claws defined by the corners of the square stock. There is always one in line with the front of the knee and another with the back of the knee (at least on all examples I've seen). I think when I remove the third and uppermost knuckle from the back claw as Mike suggested, it will take better shape. I'm going to wait for some additional feedback to see if anything else needs more work before I go at it with the gouges some more. Thanks again!

Keep the suggestions coming!

Bob

[Phillip Pattee]

Robert,

I thought you were working with three claws. I couldn't tell from your pictures. I've looked at some other pictures and I can see now that my comment isn't very helpful--so nevermind. :o

[Robert Rozaieski]

No worries Phillip, like I said, all advice is welcome, I'm just learning to do this myself ;)!

[Jim Koepke]

Wish I could help you.

Well actually, I wish I could do as good.

The work looks great. Makes me feel like trying one of these when my new shop gets set up.

jim

[Matt Bickford]

The major critique that I would offer is in regards to the ball. The ball does not look uniform from front to back. Make sure that the equator is the same and that the amount of curvature is also the same. Make sure that it is round from top to bottom. I bought the instruction booklet from The Olde Mill Shop. There are a few issues that I had with the steps published in it, but it's very good and got me from A to B. These are numbers 4 and 5 for me. They aren't perfect and the photography is worse, but...

http://www.oldemill.com/

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks Matt,

I agree with you. The ball gave me the most trouble. I had marked the height and the mid point all the way around and followed them but still it doesn't look right to me. I definately need to work on the ball some. I used Gene Landon's article from the September/October 2006 FWW and also Lonnie Birds step by step in Shaping Wood and Greene's brief description in American Furniture of the 18th Century but the ball seems to lack roundness to me. I formed a cylinder first as Landon and Greene suggest and that went well but going from cylinder to ball gave me trouble. I may try to refine it some more but I'm afraid of removing too much wood from the ball and making it appear too small. I have another blank and will be making another attempt. Your's look great by the way. Very symetrical. I think that's the most difficult part, making the ball look continuous and symetrical all the way around. Thanks for the feedback!

Bob

[Carl Eyman]

Philip Lowe of Beverly MA has a video (through Finewoodworking) that I used in learning how to carve the B & C's for the dining chairs I made. I am not holding them up as examples, but Lowe's book got me through the task. See eyman.org/furniture and you can see the results. The chairs were from Clarkson's book "building a Chippendale Chair" (or something like that) The B&C on the dining table came from a book by Clarkson and another author on building a Chippendale Tip Top Table. I adapted his pedestal and legs to a larger size. Here again I'm not holding my work up as an example- just trying to give you sources of information.

You have a real good start. Keep at it. BTW I found mahogany much easier to carve than basswood.

[mike holden]

Robert,
If you want any other pics, let me know. I took a bunch during class so I would have them for reference.
Mike

[Rob Luter]

Robert -

Given time I'm sure I could come up with some constructive criticisms. I don't have that much time. It looks great. 'nuff said.

- Rob

[Matt Bickford]

The pamphlet from the Olde Mill is much more in depth than the Bird or Landon articles. It's probably 15-20x more descriptive. I remember it being a little pricey. It was a good buy for me. Since you've already done one you may be dissappointed. I doubt it, however.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks all for all the feedback so far! It has been very helpful. Based on the comments received so far, I made some changes to the foot (couldn't really add a calf to the leg itself, sorry Mike :)).

First, I removed the third knuckle from the rear toe. This made a huge difference in the appearance when seen from the side. I also took the top knuckle down a bit on the remaining three toes making it slightly lower and also thinner as I felt it was just a little to wide and square. Third, I worked on the ball a little. It looks a little better to me, however, the top still looks lower in the two rear quadrants than it does in the front two. This is something I will need to work on on my next attempt. I'm still not sure how the top of the ball ended up lower in the rear sections than in the front sections as I marked the top of the ball on all four sides before I began carving. I will just need to be more concious of this on my next try. Thanks again for all the feedback and encouragement and please feel free to add additional comments on the improvements in the pics below.

The first is a shot from the front, the second from the back, the third is a pic of the left side of the foot and the fourth is of the right side.

[mike holden]

Looking really good here!
Are these users? I did not see any mortices. (mortices or whatever joints should be done BEFORE cutting the cabriole)
In any case, they are good enough to use.
You can keep whittling, and trying to make it better only so long, before it all goes wonky on you.
If these are practice legs, then stop, and make some new ones. Then you can see where you get better.
Good job, but as we said in the office: At some point in the project, you have to shoot the engineer, and build the d**n car!
Mike

[Mark Stutz]

Robert,
Having never done this, I couldn't comment on the first pictures, though I agree, something just wasn't right. I think you've nailed it on the revision. I would be more than happy to have these in my living room.

Mark

[Robert Rozaieski]

Looking really good here!
Are these users? I did not see any mortices. (mortices or whatever joints should be done BEFORE cutting the cabriole)Mike

Thanks! No mortices, this is a practice leg in basswood. I certainly would not want to chop mortices now :eek:! The plan is to do at least one more practice leg before I cut into any good wood. I may try to leave a little extra material on the knee of the next practice leg and add a knee carving to that one just for fun. Haven't done one of those yet. I'm pretty happy with this one and am not going to make any more changes to it. I'll try and work on what needs improving on the next go round. As you said, sometimes you just need to know when to stop.

[mike holden]

Robert -
regarding the carvings on the knees. I was taught NOT to leave any extra wood. the carvings are not deep and outlining is mostly a matter of creating a slight dip around the perimeter. Shells are easy to layout, use your gouges to define the lobes, a normal chisel to create the dip, and a veiner to separate the lobes and voila!
Mike

[Brian Millspaw]

Here are some photos of the type of ball and claw I make. The ball is more squat than round and the side claws are raked back at a slight angle

hope this helps