Mail order or by local?? What would you do??

[Jeff Monson]

Got a decision to make on a large purchase before the end of the month and here is what I'm faced with,

1. Ebay store seller has a powermatic PM2000 tablesaw and DC1300
dust collector for $2908.00 with free shipping and a 350 rebate from PM bringing my total to $2558.00 all said and done.

2.My local acme store has the PM2000 for 2499.00 and the DC1300 for 649.00 for a total of 3360.00 including tax. and a rebate for 350 bringing my total of 3010.00 all said and done.

$452.00 difference from mail order to local, what would you do?????:confused:

[Brent Smith]

Hi Jeff,

I'm not familiar with Acme stores, but if it's a box store go with the mailorder deal. If it's an owner run place spend the extra $400. You may find down the road that $400 now will be well spent if the need arises for servicing.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

the opportunity to lower their price. If they can get within 10-12% I would place the order with them. One shipping or warranty problem from the Ebay seller could eat up a couple hundred dollars pretty quickly, plus I consider supporting local business a worthy cause.

[Dave Lehnert]

When I purchased my JET cabinet saw I almost purchased it from Amazon. Same price but no tax and free shipping. I decided to get it from my dealer. Good thing. I had problems with a defective fence. The two replacements were also defective. My dealer gave me the upgrade fence to replace. Even offered any other brand fence in the showroom that i wanted. Said Jet rep was due in that day and he would make it good.That would have been a nightmare through mail order.
Is the e-bay unit used? Seems like a lot of difference in price if new. Power tools are priced much the same everywhere. I would make sure it is the same offer. (include fence etc..)

[Jeff Monson]

The package is new, the price difference is 240 between the packages its the 212.00 in tax that makes the difference. heres a link

http://www.toolzone.com/cgi-bin/sh000005.cgi?REFPAGE=https%3a%2f%2fwww%2etoolzone% 2ecom%2f&WD=powermatic&PN=Powermatic_Specials%2ehtml%23aPM1720304KPKG#aPM 1720304KPKG

[glenn bradley]

As others have said, if there is a benefit to buying local like; they are a service center so they could come to you instead of moving your saw if you needed service (a few PM2K's here have), that would be worth some money. If they are just a local store and offer nothing for the $400 other than being in your zip code, save the $400 and buy a good rip, crosscut and general purpose blade.

[Matt Ocel]

Jeff -

FYI - I got a Acme down here in the Twin Cities and when I need to buy a big ticket item, I ask what there "best" price is and they have always gave me a lower price than they originally quoted.

[scott spencer]

I like to buy local when I can but when the price difference is very high the decision almost makes itself.

To add a twist to your calculations...are you familiar with the Microsoft Live.com (http://pages.ebay.com/cashbackoffer/terms.html) "Cashback" discounts being offered? In a nutshell, MS is offering discounts to promote their Live.com search engine. Many items on Ebay listed as "Buy It Now" are eligible for varying discounts up to $250 per transaction if you use PayPal and follow the simple requirements. The discount varies randomly throughout the week, but is currently at 20% (up to $250 max). It's real...I saved an additional $118 on a PC two days ago. :)

See How it works... (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/838081/) at Fatwallet.com

Good luck!

[Greg Caputo]

I agree with the buy local folks. I try to support local merchants as much as possible, even if it means a bit more on the price. I'll go to the locally owned hardware store instead of online or even the big box. The service is always great, they have people who will talk to you and offer advice, or just shoot the breeze for a few minutes. All in all, especially on big purchases where you might be looking for after-sale help, I think buying local beats Amazon/Ebay/etc every time.

Greg

[John Keeton]

Here is another factor to consider. In some states, there has been a concerted effort by the state sales tax authorities to collect the tax from purchasers. Not sure what ND policy is, but you could get a followup from the state on the avoided tax. There was a thread on this issue 2 or 3 months ago as I recall.

I am in favor of local on apples and apples purchases to a point. Seems like Lloyd has the best approach. Give the local store a fair chance to compete. You have probably already been to his store, taken his time, sought his advice, and he deserves your business if it can be done within reason. You are just a number to the mail order place. You are a customer and friend to the local dealer. Keep in mind that you will be seeing the dealer in the future and he will be asking you, "Jeff, did you ever make a decision on that saw?" You either lie and never go back in the store, or you tell the truth and try to explain yourself. Neither choice is good.

As a former business owner, I have been on the other side of this many times and would have appreciated the opportunity to have a second shot at the sale on a big ticket item.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I don't think anyone can make the blind statement that you'll get better service by buying locally. I've had more bad experiences from local dealers than from Amazon/eBay. In fact, I've never had an issue that wasn't resolved when buying online. Not small stuff, either. PM2000, dust collector, SCMS, jointer, planer, drill press, mortiser were all bought online. Bought my Scag zero turn mower from a dealer in May. Turned out to be a bad guy.

I say save the $452 unless you're sure about the service you're gonna receive.

[fred woltersdorf]

i bought a pm 66 ts, jet comb disk and belt sander, jet 1100 dust collector and many other items from my local woodcraft about 3 yrs ago. his lease is up and he's not renewing, so the end of July he's retiring. i say cheaper is better.

[Mike Heidrick]

The microsoft live.com/ebay//paypal cashback deals could swing the vote on this decision. Currently 20% cashback (60 days later) and has been 25% recently (bought the Kreg Foreman and Kreg Klamp table with these deals myself).
For those wondering what I am tallking about there is a huge thread in teh for sale section of teh other forum and also on fat wallet. Here is a brief how to:
-------------------------------------


Go to live dot com. Register for cashback with a live id (or create a new one). Log in. Go to cashback and Click web search.and search for powermatic. Click on the powermatic items - www dot ebay dot com (http://www.ebay dot com) cashback link.

Find the buy it now item (PM2000) item from the store you want. Click on it and at the top you should see microsoft cashback image. Buy the item with buy it now. Pay with paypal making sure your transaction shows the cashback image as well. You will get a message from ebay saying you earned cash back. Click that link and you will see the $% amount pending you account for 60 days. Get your item and use it. Sixty days later you can deposit the $ amount into your paypal account and have it transfered to your checking account.

[Bruce Page]

I’m all for supporting local business, and I do whenever practical, but 450 bucks is 450 bucks.

[Phil Thien]

I think that, given that the difference includes $200 in taxes (so the local store is getting pretty close to the mailorder price), and that stuff like this doesn't always ship well, I'd buy locally.

[Max Acbuilder]

I have purchased over $10,000 worth of tools and materials from local Woodcraft store. When I asked them for help with my Powermatic 2800 drill press that I paid them retail for they told me to call the manufacturer. Not even a discussion on what was wrong. (Jacksonville, FL) I would have gotten the same service from the internet. So now I will shop online and use Woodcraft merely as a display service where I can examine the stuff then order on the net not pay tax and get overnight shipping.

[Josh Mountain]

With the extra $250 from the live.com offer, it's gonna be difficult to not get it from toolking. I recently ordered a brand new tool from them and got the 20% from live.com. All as advertised.

[Tom Veatch]

...mail order to local, what would you do?????:confused:

When I was outfitting my shop, I used the internet to put together a list of tools I wanted, presented the list to my local homegrown tool store along with the best prices I could find advertised on the web. He matched the prices on those items he carried and recommended alternates for those he didn't carry at the same or lower prices. I paid tax at the point of sale, but no shipping (and even if purchased over the 'net, come April 15, the tax is still due to the state if it's not collected by the seller).

If it was me, I'd give the local guy a chance to match the internet quote. Local is usually better for a number of reasons.

[John Keeton]

I have purchased over $10,000 worth of tools and materials from local Woodcraft store. When I asked them for help with my Powermatic 2800 drill press that I paid them retail for they told me to call the manufacturer. Not even a discussion on what was wrong. (Jacksonville, FL) I would have gotten the same service from the internet. So now I will shop online and use Woodcraft merely as a display service where I can examine the stuff then order on the net not pay tax and get overnight shipping.
Max, I think your feelings are justified. However, your local Woodcraft is a local franchise owner - an independent businessman. Your bad experience should not reflect on all such businesses as other Woodcraft, Acme, etc. owners may respond differently, as Dave and Greg have related.

It just seems that the local business deserves a chance to "be in the game" and provide a competitive price and good service. If they do as your Woodcraft dealer did, then future dealings need to elsewhere.

[Prashun Patel]

Do some research on the Powermatic Warranty and how to get it serviced should the need arise.

It doesn't make sense to me to pay up front (by buying locally) for 'insurance' that might or might not be there.

$400 is a LOT of money. Shoot! Ask Powermatic if you can get some kind of extended service contract for that!!!

[Mike Heidrick]

I have purchased over $10,000 worth of tools and materials from local Woodcraft store. When I asked them for help with my Powermatic 2800 drill press that I paid them retail for they told me to call the manufacturer. Not even a discussion on what was wrong. (Jacksonville, FL) I would have gotten the same service from the internet. So now I will shop online and use Woodcraft merely as a display service where I can examine the stuff then order on the net not pay tax and get overnight shipping.

Many of the large tool manufacturers would want you to call them first. also (if you plan to fix the tool and not return it), depending on your woodcraft staff, many are not hardware service tech experts anyway. I would call the manufacturer and get the parts I needed or the service I need just because they are the experts on that tool. No offense to woodcraft here at all. Now you could call them and ask for an adjustment on the price if it was broke initially or just return it there on their step.

Also, for those wondering about shipping. I have some of the heaviest tools Delta sells. All arrived perfectly from the freight companies. Remember that the manufacturer packages/crates the tools for amazon the same way they do for woodcraft. Also, when the tools get big enough, they are dropped shipped from the manufacturer straight to your house anyway - there is no middleman to mess it up (or open it up to show another customer or put it on display for a bit) other than the freight company. My jointer, planer, cyclone, and shaper all came from Delta directly. If anything amazon (an etailer I use a lot) OVER packages items most times.

Got to go - UPS just showed up :)

[Michael McCoy]

If anything amazon (an etailer I use a lot) OVER packages items most times.

Got to go - UPS just showed up :)

Accept for long Bessey clamps. ;)
Shorter ones of course are one to a box.

[Ben Rafael]

So now I will shop online and use Woodcraft merely as a display service where I can examine the stuff then order on the net not pay tax and get overnight shipping.

IMO that is a form of theft.
Local stores do not exist so we can go look at stuff to determine what we want to buy online.

[Robin Cruz]

I buy online WHENEVER possible. Of course this assumes you do some homework, shopping around and know what you want.
a). Do the shopping and usually will find it cheaper online.
b) No sales taxes (usually dont buy from those that charge them)
c) Cost + shipping is usually better then local (local needs to account for tax + gas).

There are more risks of course but those can be minimal if you use certain sellers. For example I purchased Hitachi M12V2 from Amazon which was so horrible is design and defects that I returned the next day. Amazon took back with no questions and paid for the shipping. Amazon also has many free shipping items if over $25 and others like MLCS have free shipping on any item no matter the cost.

[Tom Veatch]

I see a lot of comments in this thread implying, or flat out stating, that one of the advantages of online buying is "no sales tax".

I hope you all realize that the tax is still due to the state at the time you file your state income taxes. Often the state tax return has a specific line item to declare the amount of tax due from untaxed purchases. Entering a zero amount for that line item when there is tax due can be construed as filing a fraudulent return.

Admittedly, at the present time, enforcement is spotty and the chances of getting caught is small, but that could change overnight. How often do politicians let a "legal" source of revenue get away from them indefinitely. If you do get caught, you could really have your tail in a crack. I would be real careful about implying in a public forum that you don't pay the "use tax" due on your internet purchases.

[Robin Cruz]

I see a lot of comments in this thread implying, or flat out stating, that one of the advantages of online buying is "no sales tax".

I hope you all realize that the tax is still due to the state at the time you file your state income taxes. Often the state tax return has a specific line item to declare the amount of tax due from untaxed purchases. Entering a zero amount for that line item when there is tax due can be construed as filing a fraudulent return.

Admittedly, at the present time, enforcement is spotty and the chances of getting caught is small, but that could change overnight. How often do politicians let a "legal" source of revenue get away from them indefinitely. If you do get caught, you could really have your tail in a crack. I would be real careful about implying in a public forum that you don't pay the "use tax" due on your internet purchases.

LMAO. that has to be the funniest thing I heard this year! Keep it up! I need the diversion.

[Tom Veatch]

LMAO. that has to be the funniest thing I heard this year! Keep it up! I need the diversion.

Very well. Here's some more to whet your funny bone.

Most state revenue departments don't find tax evasion to be much of a laughing matter and can get real nasty about it. Of course if you live in a state that doesn't have a state sales tax, you're free and clear. Otherwise, you're treading on thin ice. But, it's entirely your choice whether you want to risk it or not.

[Kevin Arceneaux]

I like to support my local guy when I can. But, they are not always the easiest to deal with. I have had some have the "I am the only game in town" attitude and that really tees me off. A lot depends on their attitude.

Their hours are big deal also. The hardwood dealers and the high end tool store are only open during the week, not weekends. My wife is starting to do projects and with me out of town quite a bit, she has a hard time getting there during their hours.

You also have instant gratification to figure in.

LA has that line and I always smile when I file that line in on the taxes.

[John Keeton]

LMAO. that has to be the funniest thing I heard this year! Keep it up! I need the diversion.
Robin, check this link http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=68976 and in particular post #5. That, my friend, is a $1300 LMAO! It does happen.

[John Daugherty]

I live in Tennessee, no state income tax. You are supposed to send the state any sales tax not payed on out of state purchases. They have a form you complete and send in. I however don't know of anyone who does it. A friend however owns a business and the state tax people showed up and audited his records and stuck him with a good sized bill for unpaid state sales tax.

[Ted Jay]

IMO that is a form of theft.
Local stores do not exist so we can go look at stuff to determine what we want to buy online.

It's not a form of theft IMO... it might be equated with comparison shopping or smart shopping to some. Resourceful may be another word or being frugal or cheap.

Now, if you went to that store and had them show you all the workings of the machine, picking the man's brain and wasting his time, knowing you intended to buy online.... I would call it a showing of poor personal ethics.

Now, if you bought that tool online and it broke, and you brought it down to your local big store and exchanged it for a replacement... but the reciept "got lost somewhere", and they exchanged it.... I would not call that a "form" of theft, it is theft, IMO.

Alot of companies also restrict the sales price to be a certain amount also, whether you buy online and have to pay shipping, or buy local and have to sales tax.

[Ben Rafael]

Now, if you went to that store and had them show you all the workings of the machine, picking the man's brain and wasting his time, knowing you intended to buy online.... I would call it a showing of poor personal ethics.



That is theft. You are taking someone's time knowing that you will not buy it from him. You are stealing his time.

[John Shuk]

What if I went there and looked the machine over and when they asked if I needed help I told them that I was just looking?

The brick and mortar store also could use that opportunity to win (or lose) my business.

[Don Morris]

I started a thread similar to yours several years ago because I was considering an 8" jointer just about the time Grizzly was coming out with their models. I had bought thousands from the local store in other items: TS, dust collection, BS, Drill press, etc. But the DJ20 cost almost a $1000.00 more. I had to think...would the local store come out and service the DJ20 if it had a problem? Nope. I gave them every opportunity to make a deal but no way would they budge even with a long time customer. I ended up getting an online purchase. Never been happier. I still go there, but loyalty is a thing of the past. If I need an item, I purchase it. They still give me advise. If I didn't get the advice, I'd go elsewhere. I make my purchases based on my pocketbook. I can't afford to do otherwise on large purchases. Small items, sure, support the local guy. But big ticket items...come on. They're not going to come out and service your TS, Jointer, BS, etc. And the guy that's going out of business...I wonder how long my Woodcraft will be around.

[Ted Jay]

That is theft. You are taking someone's time knowing that you will not buy it from him. You are stealing his time.

It is not a theft that will get you thrown in jail. It is something that that person will have to deal with inside, that inner peace thing, with the glowing aura, burning incence..... can you dig it?....peace...:p

[John Perkes]

As a former retail store owner (a watch/clock shop) I knew that the internet sites could beat me hands down on prices. However, when a customer came in and at least offered me a chance to meet them in the middle on price I appreciated the chance. You may be suprised what the shop owner of manager is able to do on price when you tell them you may be buying online. At least give them the chance to match the price.

[Mark Carlson]

When I bought my cabinet saw I paid more locally because I got to see my machine before hand, they inspected it, put a cord on it and delivered it to my garage. I could have gotten a much better deal online. Good service and piece of mind is worth a lot to me with big purchases. I havn't been to a mall in years and buy everything else online.

~mark

[John Sanford]

Very well. Here's some more to whet your funny bone.

Most state revenue departments don't find tax evasion to be much of a laughing matter and can get real nasty about it. Of course if you live in a state that doesn't have a state sales tax, you're free and clear. Otherwise, you're treading on thin ice. But, it's entirely your choice whether you want to risk it or not.

Oddly, in state's that don't have a state sales tax, their local vendors don't face that particular competitive disadvantage versus mail-order/online venderos. Given that the sales tax here has almost doubled since I've lived here, without any improvement in the quality of government, cry me a river of tears over folks who blow off paying sales tax. Personally, I'd love, truly love to see the states start sending the taxman out to collect all these "use taxes" from Joe Consumer (aka Joe Citizen Voter) to which they think they're entitled.

The last bozo who got too fond of "his" taxes was given the bum's rush at a tea party. :D

With regards to the OP, the question you have to ask yourself is "do you think that $200 in taxes is going to be reasonably well spent?" Note, I'm not asking if all of it will be spent in complete accord with your theories of public spending, rather, "is the state gubmint gonna p!$$ it all away, or will some good come of it?" If so, then disregard the tax in your calculation, 'cause you are getting some value for it, and not paying it will place you in the seat of the freeloader, i.e. not a good place to be. Incidentally, if you're going to be voting for candidates who think increasing taxes is the thing to do this coming election, then pony up and pay all your "use taxes" whether the taxman comes for 'em or not. You can send the check my way, I'll be sure to forward it to the appropriate authorities. :D

The whole local service (good and non-existent) has already been covered quite well by others.

[Ben Rafael]

It is not a theft that will get you thrown in jail. It is something that that person will have to deal with inside, that inner peace thing, with the glowing aura, burning incence..... can you dig it?....peace...:p

Legally it is not theft. Morally it is, and that is enough for me. There are religious teachings that address this in amazing detail.

[John Keeton]

On the theft issue, as a former business owner of many years, let me assure you that when someone "had them show you all the workings of the machine, picking the man's brain and wasting his time, knowing you intended to buy online" - and you can usually tell - I felt like I had been a victim of theft of time and money.

Normally, one has employees that are paid to assist in sales, etc. And, one has only a limited amount of time to attend to the needs of a customer. If someone like this takes my time, my employees time, prevents me attending a valid customer, then there can be no doubt they have taken knowledge, time and money from me. Granted, if I recognize what is happening, I could stop it. But, not at the risk of offending that person, miscalling the situation, or offending other customers that may overhear.

That said, I see nothing wrong with "shopping", be it for price or availability, or for general knowledge, even if one may be yet undecided but considering an online purchase. It is up to me as the businessman, to make that person a customer of mine by helpful assistance and good service. That is all I ever wanted - a fair chance.

It is hard to have "a fair chance" when someone comes in my store with the preconceived plan to take advantage of me. That is no different than many other forms of theft, even though it is not of a criminal nature.

The real test is honesty. Would you walk in to a store and tell the owner - "I'm going to purchase this item somewhere else, but I can't see it or examine it there, so could you spend 30 minutes with me and tell me about this product?" If the answer is no, and you don't feel a twinge of guilt, then you need to do some self examination.

And, before someone yells "holier than thou" - yes, we all have faults and I have many, some probably much worse than this. I am just giving you the "other side" from the perspective of the businessman.

[John Shuk]

To offset the tire kickers there are people who do the research online and walk into a brick and mortar store and buy no questions asked. Many of these people crawl websites and download images using bandwidth for which online retailers pay.
Is that any less of a theft?
The world has changed.

[John Keeton]

John, I agree the world has changed and we could debate for a good while about whether the changes are positive. However, I think when one enters the "cybermarket", by definition they are willingly participating in a world that is not touchy/feely and are competing solely on price and reported customer service. It is all about the "number of clicks" and "page views." Graphic design is the only link they have with their customers. It is a sterile environment. No coffee and war stories, no walking around the store on Saturday morning or after work, no exchange of opinions, talk about the weather, or stories about last week's ballgame.

When a bricks and mortar merchant takes the risk of starting that business, he doesn't sign on for the same experience. As I stated, I am simply giving you the other side. If you have never been a retail business owner, it is really is not possible to fully relate to this.

It was often suggested to me that I should join the internet market, but I resisted because I didn't want to get lost in the jungle of the web for some of those very reasons. In the end, we liquidated our business and closed - largely as a victim of the fuel prices and the general economy.

I always felt we had offered something that no cyber merchant could ever offer - a level of experience and personal connection that only one-on-one can offer. It sounds corny, but that part of America is quickly fading away. I am not sure that in the end we will be happy with what we have left. But, to most it is "just about price."

I do know that I see former customers everyday, and, without fail, they all tell me how much they miss us.

But, you are right, it is a different world. I watch our grandkids texting each other while they are sitting in the same room!! What's with that??!!

Didn't Alan Jackson write a song about some of this?

Mike, I posted before seeing your comment, and yes I agree with you on that. As a merchant, it is your responsibility to know your product. If your questions are pertinent and intelligently asked, then you deserve an informed response. I might add, the questions are not always framed in that manner.

And, we keep using the term "theft" when it probably isn't appropriate. It denotes something criminal. What we are really talking about is just common human decency and respect. Nothing more than you want from your boss, wife or co-workers.

[Ben Rafael]

On the theft issue, as a former business owner of many years, let me assure you that when someone "had them show you all the workings of the machine, picking the man's brain and wasting his time, knowing you intended to buy online" - and you can usually tell - I felt like I had been a victim of theft of time and money.

Normally, one has employees that are paid to assist in sales, etc. And, one has only a limited amount of time to attend to the needs of a customer. If someone like this takes my time, my employees time, prevents me attending a valid customer, then there can be no doubt they have taken knowledge, time and money from me. Granted, if I recognize what is happening, I could stop it. But, not at the risk of offending that person, miscalling the situation, or offending other customers that may overhear.

That said, I see nothing wrong with "shopping", be it for price or availability, or for general knowledge, even if one may be yet undecided but considering an online purchase. It is up to me as the businessman, to make that person a customer of mine by helpful assistance and good service. That is all I ever wanted - a fair chance.

It is hard to have "a fair chance" when someone comes in my store with the preconceived plan to take advantage of me. That is no different than many other forms of theft, even though it is not of a criminal nature.

The real test is honesty. Would you walk in to a store and tell the owner - "I'm going to purchase this item somewhere else, but I can't see it or examine it there, so could you spend 30 minutes with me and tell me about this product?" If the answer is no, and you don't feel a twinge of guilt, then you need to do some self examination.

And, before someone yells "holier than thou" - yes, we all have faults and I have many, some probably much worse than this. I am just giving you the "other side" from the perspective of the businessman.

Exactly.
I sold computers for commission about 20 years ago. It was a busy store and wasting time cost me money. We'd get people coming in who were often there just to kill their time. I didn't mind if they looked around, but I didn't like it when they expected me to take my time to explain things to them. The time thieves were almost always retired men who had no hobbies after they retired. I got good at reading body language and I could spot a time thief the moment he walked through the door.

[John Shuk]

John,
I agree with much of what you said. Most of these are philosophical questions really. I enjoy talking about human nature. Life is filled with duality.

Ben,
I used to sell boats for a living. So many people want tours. I also got really good at deciphering what people were looking for.

I personally like to buy local when I can. I like the idea of being able to walk up to somebody if I have a problem that isn't getting solved.
That said I wouldn't hesitate to buy from a company like Grizzly who courageously has tried to make a connection to the customers through the forums.

[Ben Rafael]

I dont want to get too philosophical with this but, one of the commandments is, as we all know, Do not STEAL. Stealing is not just taking a material object without paying for it. You can steal time, emotions, desire, trust, life, and many other tangible and intangible things.
Leading people to believe one thing when you have the intention of doing something else is stealing. Like dating a woman who you lead on to believe you want a serious relationship, but you want nothing of the sort.

Public schools do not teach morality so most of us grow up ignorant of the fact of what all forms of stealing can entail.

I do not blame most of those who stole my time when I was a salesman, they were not aware that what they were doing was wrong, they were not bad people. We send our kids to school to learn a lot of things, unfortunately the schools cannot teach everything, so we must teach our kids these things.

[Max Acbuilder]

if the folks at the store actually cared. In my case on the Powermatic 2800 I knew they couldn't fix it and I knew I would have to get Powermatic involved. However, I paid retail, and sales tax (Tom) and just expected some concern, compassion or understanding to the problem and perhaps a phone number and a follow up. Instead I got the proverbial "can't help you... who is next?"

My experience with internet purchases have been very good. When I email the store front or the manufacturer I actually get a response from a person that has product knowledge. I take offense to the theft issue. The woodcraft guys don't spend time with you, if you do ask a question they look it up on the web and give you an answer you could get at home.

If one of the retail stores took the time to know their products and know their customers we wouldn't even think about web purchases. If they don't have sales skills and I buy somewhere else how is it theft?

The web is competition and competition is good. If the local store want my business earn my respect and I'll spend money...

[Ben Rafael]

Max,
It depends on your intention.
If someone goes into a store with intention of buying elsewhere but using the store or it's personnel to determine what to buy, that is theft. But, if they give the store a chance to make the the sale then that is not theft.

[John Keeton]

That said I wouldn't hesitate to buy from a company like Grizzly who courageously has tried to make a connection to the customers through the forums.
Which is exactly why I have a shop full of Grizzly tools! Of course, there really is no opportunity to shop locally on Griz unless you are fortunate enough to be near one of their locations. Certainly would not have the moral dilemma of "getting educated" at a local store, and buying online since Griz doesn't sell to retailers.

Until Woodcraft opened about 25 miles from me, I really had no options other than big blue borg. We live in a small town, and I know many of the employees at "bbb", and they are helpful. But, the selection is limited to contractor level or less. That is their market.

I believe we are all a little closer on this issue than one might think. It has been a good discussion, though.

[Robin Cruz]

Very well. Here's some more to whet your funny bone.

Most state revenue departments don't find tax evasion to be much of a laughing matter and can get real nasty about it. Of course if you live in a state that doesn't have a state sales tax, you're free and clear. Otherwise, you're treading on thin ice. But, it's entirely your choice whether you want to risk it or not.
Oh.....I never considered you were actually serious. I commend you on paying those unrequired taxes and Ill be writing my congressman immediately to demand the government plug this drain on our state treasury.

[Don Morris]

My only disagreement is with those of you who "moralize" about spending your hard earned dollars at the "local". I guess you can afford to spend your money that way. I'm retired military which I learned leaves you with lots of gold on sleeve and little in pocket. I'm one year from seventy and after 30 years in the military and multiple moves (each one was costly regardless of how much the Govt. paid) I still have a considerable mortgage on my home. I can't afford to "moralize" about how I spend my money. I'm just getting ready to retire a second time. I was the underway ships organist on 3 ships and protestant layleader, so I'm not unfamiliar to the passages or sentiments previously quoted either. When I can I support the local guys, but a major ticket item now...I would do a lot of internet and local research to get the biggest bang for my limited buck.

[John Keeton]

Don, it seems that some of these issues have become intertwined.

From what has been posted, it would appear that many would attempt to buy local if the price were close - depending on the level of service and assistance provided through the local dealer. If the local dealer lacks knowledge, or isn't going the extra mile to provide good service, then most would not hesitate to buy online or elsewhere. I really do not see "morality" to be an issue in that scenario.

In your situation, as it really is for all of us, price is very important, and I see nothing "wrong" with making your position. Your statement "When I can I support the local guys, but a major ticket item now...I would do a lot of internet and local research to get the biggest bang for my limited buck." seems moral and logical to me.

Regarding the "moralization" (haven't checked to see if that is actually a word?!?!) issue, that issue seems to surround the intentional use of the time, money and effort of a local bricks and mortar, for the sole purpose of gaining sufficient knowledge to buy elsewhere - knowing all along that will be the end result. This seems to be distinguished from simply walking in, absorbing what you can absorb by looking, and not spending 30 minutes asking questions and asking for demonstrations.

There appears to be a difference of opinion on this as to whether this conduct is acceptable from a moral standpoint. I would not engage in the first scenario, but have no hesitancy about going in to look at prices, see what is available, and generally look at a product. My comment to the sales person is that I am just looking - by having the store open to the public he/she has invited me for that purpose. If the storeowner wants to engage me at that point, I feel compelled to say (if I know) that "the product is available at XYZ for $$$ - what are the advantages of buying from you?" He/she then has a fair opportunity to make a customer out of me, and knows going in my position.

Does this stir anything else from the group??

[Greg Cuetara]

Legally it is not theft. Morally it is, and that is enough for me.

One question I have is what about the salesmen working in the stores who waste my time when they try to sell me more than I need. Most of the time to make more on the commission or they are just a salesmen trying to move the product they have in the store rather than what I need.

Is it theft of my time when that happens. Most of the brick and morter stores around here are only open bankers hours and a very few on saturday mornings. When I do get the time to get into a store it is because I am not in my office making money or I have to make up for the time nights or weekends so it is real time to me when it is wasted.

Please don't misunderstand me...there are people who are very knowledgable who sell you what you need and not what they have a lot of or what costs the most but overall they are far and few between.

The days of going into a brick and morter store and really truly trusting the person behind the counter is a day of the past. We have to do our own research, both on the internet, in the stores and talking to people then find the best price and pull the trigger. I would say to go to the store and give the owner the chance to meet you in the middle...if they can offer you the service after you have purchased then go with them. There are many stories on here about someone buying a saw and getting great service after the fact from a local store owner but on the other hand there are stories about people who get the 'not my problem'.

Sometimes money is a big factor and has to be more of a consideration for some than for others. I personally shop at wally world because I can save about 25% or more on products. You have to do whatever you need to do to be happy and stay above water. Morals are nice and good, I am not saying to do anything unethical, illegal, or wrong, but morals do not put dinner on the table, fuel in the stove or gas in the car.

Greg

[Ben Rafael]

Greg,
Some salesmen are good, some are bad. A good one will, regardless of commission, help the customer determine what is the best product for him. A good salesman should know more about what they sell than the customer, good ones ask the right questions. Of course there are bad salesmen as well.
If you have a salesman who you feel is wasting your time, ask for another salesman or tell them you are not interested in anything except what you came in for and please ring me up.
I bot a camera last year at a local camera store. I do not like the sales people at the store because they are arrogant and just plain unfriendly, but they are very knowledgable and the store has good prices, has every camera on the planet and it is the only camera store anywhere near here. After telling the salesman what I was looking for he showed me 2 cameras that did what I needed. One had a feature that I never knew about that actually was quite useful to me, and I use it often. That camera was actually about $30 less in price. Although he was not a personable salesman, he knew his business and sold me something better than what I came in for for less money.
There are good salespeople in every field, they are also not that hard to find.

[Jeff Monson]

Just a quick update, today I gave my local store a chance to do better on the price, I was told the "prices are the prices" and that was all they could do. I really got the attitude that they were the only ones who sold powermatic. :mad: Oh well I tried !!!!!

Also I have never wasted a salesmans time showing me all the bells and whistles of this saw so I dont feel I owe the store anything, I also have purchased a large percentage of my ww tools from this store. But not this time, I'm going to buy the online deal and cross my fingers.

Next up is a major gloat when they both arrive!!!

[Robin Cruz]

Just a quick update, today I gave my local store a chance to do better on the price, I was told the "prices are the prices" and that was all they could do. I really got the attitude that they were the only ones who sold powermatic. :mad: Oh well I tried !!!!!

Also I have never wasted a salesmans time showing me all the bells and whistles of this saw so I dont feel I owe the store anything, I also have purchased a large percentage of my ww tools from this store. But not this time, I'm going to buy the online deal and cross my fingers.

Next up is a major gloat when they both arrive!!!
you be sure to include the sales tax in your state tax return.