How long to wait before buffing out shellac?

[Cary Swoveland]

I padded five coats of dewaxed shellac to a box yesterday. Today I sanded it with 400 then 600 grit paper, then 0000 steel wool. I would like to buff it with the Bealle buffing system (tripoli, white diamond, carnuba wax). Can I do that now, or should I wait a day or longer?

I know the waiting time depends on the type of finish (and can be a week or more), but I figured it would be quite short for shellac, since the solvent is alcohol, which evaporates quickly.

Cary

[Steven Wilson]

It depends on how high of a gloss you're looking for. The instrument makers I know (who use lacquer or shellac) wait 6 weeks before buffing out. I noticed on some knives I've made (some finished with lacquer, some with shellac) that the shellac will become gummy and move on you if you buff it too quickly. I now let knives sit for a week or so (longer in the winter) before buffing.

[Dennis Peacock]

I agree with Steven. The thing to also remember is that buffing will generate heat....and you want that clear coat to be as hard as possible before buffing it out.

One thing I've noticed on finishing? A nice box finished with Shellac has it's own natural feel to it and begs to be touched. When buffed with Carnuba Wax the box takes on a "plastic" type feel and is not as warm feeling to the touch. Since then, I've not used carnuba on my boxes again. JMHO. :)

[Howard Acheson]

Give it at least four to six days. Then be careful about buffing. You don't want to create a lot of heat as shellac softens with heat.

A couple of points. 4/0 steel wool is about equal in abrasiveness to 400 sandpaper. By using the steel wool on a surface sanded with 600 grit paper you have actually somewhat taken a step back. I would re-sand with the 600 grit and forget the steel wool. Also, padding on a finish normally leaves an almost perfect surface. I've found little is gained by attempting to rub it out further.

[Cary Swoveland]

...A nice box finished with Shellac has it's own natural feel to it and begs to be touched. When buffed with Carnuba Wax the box takes on a "plastic" type feel and is not as warm feeling to the touch. Since then, I've not used carnuba on my boxes again. JMHO. :)
That's an interesting observation, Dennis. I recently read of two others who had come to the same conclusion.

Cary

[Cary Swoveland]

Give it at least four to six days. Then be careful about buffing. You don't want to create a lot of heat as shellac softens with heat.

A couple of points. 4/0 steel wool is about equal in abrasiveness to 400 sandpaper. By using the steel wool on a surface sanded with 600 grit paper you have actually somewhat taken a step back. I would re-sand with the 600 grit and forget the steel wool. Also, padding on a finish normally leaves an almost perfect surface. I've found little is gained by attempting to rub it out further.
That's very helpful, Howard. For some time now my regime has been 400 paper, 600 paper, 0000 steel wool, not realizing that the steel wool was taking a step backward. BTW, I use 3M's 216U gold paper. I like it very much.

I must need to improve my padding technique, as I have a tough time avoiding small drips at edges, even on flat boards. I use a 1 to 2 lb. cut of dewaxed shellac, and employ the aircraft touch-and-go padding technique, but clearly I'm doing something wrong. Could I have too much shellac on the pad, need to wait longer between coats, need to sand between coats (I don't) or what? I'd appreciate any suggestions you and others would care to offer.

Cary

[Alfred Cole]

Carl,

The padding "technique" is fairly easy to master. In an earlier thread I explained that I load my rubber/pad from the back. My rubber, ( I use the term I was brought up with) has a centre of unmedicated cotton wool and I use a squeeze bottle to charge the reservoir. Thus the shellac is filtered and controlled in it's delivery by the fact that you can squeeze the rubber to express more shellac as needed. Dipping it in a container means all the shellac is on the face of the rubber and varies in the amount, each time you dip it and variation is not what you want. I use a sort of touch and go but am more concerned with applying the shellac in a circular motion. I also use a light shellac mix. You get a better finish with lots of light coats and it dries faster. Don't know about these cuts you use. I always mix my own and make it by just covering the dry flakes with meth. If it's too thick simply add more meth. Also I use two rubbers. the general purpose applicator and a finishing rubber. The finishing rubber is one where I just use meth. It cleans up mistakes without sanding and as it's name suggests I use it on the final coats to smooth out the finish. When applying shellac I don't do much sanding after the first rough grain raising coats, all smoothing is with the finish rubber.

Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left.

[John Keeton]

Been watching this thread as I am a shellac "wantabe." Never used it before and have some projects that will be ready to finish soon. Alfred, those are some good pointers. I had wondered about using just the meth to do a final cleanup and sounds like it would work with the right touch. Not sure I want a polish on the current projects, but I sure am understanding the usage rules much better. Keep up the exchange of info! Thanks Cary for starting this thread!

[Alfred Cole]

Cary,

Sorry mate. Old age is a right bugger. Dunno who this bloke Carl was I was talking to.

John,
Did you check out how to make a rubber and other things I touched on in the earlier thread. Hate to say it but the piece I'm working on at present ( surrounds around a new oven) got the really rough treatment to start with. Couldn't find the shellac brush and so put the first coats on with a piece of waste foam. It's not something I would recommend but I mention it to show that shellac is possibly one of the most forgiving finishes providing you stay with the concept of many light coats.

Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left.

[John Keeton]

Alfred, I did pick up through several different posts and threads the concept of the rubber/pad and that the shellac needs to be added from the top - not dipped. The more I read about shellac, the more convinced I am that it has a lot of versatility as a finish.

[Cary Swoveland]

...I am that it has a lot of versatility as a finish.
I don't have a great deal of experience with shellac, but it's about the only thing I use now. It has many great attributes:

- very low odor;
- dries very quickly;
- can go over most any finish, including oils;
- can be brushed, padded or sprayed;
- easy clean-up;
- easily repairable;
- can go under other finishes (if dewaxed, anyway);
- provides pretty good protection;
- beautiful look and feel;
- available in many tints, and can be tinted.

I suspect one of the reasons shellac is not more widely used is that it has been around for so long. Some people have the idea that the best finishes must be the ones most recently-developed, through the wonders of chemistry.

Cary

[Cary Swoveland]

...The padding "technique" is fairly easy to master. In an earlier thread I explained that I load my rubber/pad from the back....Jerry.

Firstly, Alfred, er, Jerry, which is it?

Thanks for the information. I read your earlier post also, and the rest of that thread. I have a few questions:

- How do you know when a coat is dry enough to apply the next?
- Do you use a pad for detail work, even where there are lots of nooks and crannies?
- What grit paper do you use after apply the first two coats?
- Why do you normally apply the pad in a circular motion, rather than linearly?
- What grit papers do you normally use after the final coat?

Thanks,

Cary

[Alfred Cole]

Cary,
Came into this site and used my real name. It's one no one has ever called me. Old family tradition going back several generations. Get christened Alfred and called Jerry. I've never known why but just accepted it.

Answer to questions

Drying.
As I have said, I used very light coats, a fairly high ratio of solvent to shellac. While drying time is linked to temperature, usually you can almost forget it as a factor. If you do lay down too thick a coat so drying is delayed the rubber will drag. Just stop and wait a while. If you have pulled the surface don't worry, the next pass can usually fix a mistake. Usually on a cabinet by the time you've been around once the shellac is dry.

I make three rubbers, a GP, a smaller version for detail work and a finishing rubber that just has meth on it. I do keep an artist's brush for those very awkward spots.

After grain sealing first coats I give a quick once over with 120 grit then work up to 320.

Circular action helps deposit shellac in the pores whereas a linear action wipes it out. Linear action is only used on the finish coats.

How far you go on finishing the top coat is dependant on what you wish to achieve. Often I want the pores to be evident, it is after all wood, and wood has pores, and so I'll go to about 400grit and then use the meth rubber to bring up a sheen. Some people want a mirror finish and so would work up through finer grits and even use Tripoli powder or talc to give a final buff. Finer the finish the more work involved and the more care needed to protect the finish.

Hope my answer is of some help.

Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left.

[Cary Swoveland]

Thanks very much Jerry. You've answered all my questions. I've already adopted your earlier suggestions and the results were far better than what I had obtained previously.

Perhaps your folks didn't like the sound of "Alfie".

Cary

[Alfred Cole]

Cary,
Don't much care for it myself. Could come all over American and settle for Al. Had a real flash politician here a few years back. His name was Albert. Felt he was too upmarket to call himself Bert and he settled for Al. I'm happy with Jerry and so are all my friends and some enemies.

Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left.