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View Full Version : Tough night in vermont.....



Tim Morton
07-02-2008, 10:56 PM
http://www.rutlandherald.com/

I am just boggled by how this kind of thing happens. I know that there is nothing I can do...and that makes it even worse. Lots of bad things happen every day in the world....but this one got me.:mad::mad::mad:

Mike Henderson
07-02-2008, 11:47 PM
I certainly understand your feelings, Ken, but public executions have not shown to reduce crime. For example, in England or France (don't remember which) pickpocketing was made a capital crime. But when there was a hanging of a picketpocket, pickpockets would work the crowd gathered to watch the execution.

Mike

[Just to clarify my posting, Ken Fitzgerald had made a posting prior to mine, which he subsequently deleted. I was replying to his posting.]

John Schreiber
07-03-2008, 1:07 AM
It does boggle the mind.

I just try to keep making good decisions regarding my family. It's hard to decide when I'm being over protective and when I'm rationalizing. It's a fine line as a father.

Ken, if the evil scum who did this thought like we did, fear of punishment would stop them. Obviously, this guy does not think like humans should. I'll bet if we did public hangings, some people would try to get hung for the 15 minutes of fame.

Keith Starosta
07-03-2008, 7:33 AM
Mike,

You might be right but it will surely reduce repeat offenders.

Well said!!

- Keith

Ron Dunn
07-03-2008, 7:58 AM
At one time in my life I was a believer in the death penalty for some crimes. Then I watched an interview with the Judge who passed the death sentence on the last person to be hanged in my State, and the terrible burden he carried as a result of that decision.

That changed my mind. I don't believe that any person who is intended to be judicially impartial should be called upon to decide another's life or death.

jeremy levine
07-03-2008, 9:26 AM
At one time in my life I was a believer in the death penalty for some crimes. Then I watched an interview with the Judge who passed the death sentence on the last person to be hanged in my State, and the terrible burden he carried as a result of that decision.

That changed my mind. I don't believe that any person who is intended to be judicially impartial should be called upon to decide another's life or death.

So what do we do with this guy in Vt. repeat child-molester/child rapist and now murder. Sadly Vt. hadssome of the weakest anti-pedofilie laws (really sentencing).

If death is not really a deterrent then why are people afraid rat out the mob ?

Ron Dunn
07-03-2008, 9:32 AM
My view ... not worth much outside my front door ... is that he should be in jail. If he was a repeat offender, I think you need to look elsewhere for the reasons he was able to repeat the offence.

The crime is terrible, but there is no reason why the punishment should mark others with the same deed.

I can never stop wondering why the world's most publicly peace-loving and publicly/officially Christian nation is also its most blood-thirsty ... why it has the world's highest rate of violent crimes and murder per head of population ... something is deeply wrong at the core ... and I don't believe that perpetuating a cycle of death will do anything to fix it.

John Schreiber
07-03-2008, 9:44 AM
If death is not really a deterrent then why are people afraid rat out the mob ?
For better or worse, mobsters are generally rational people.

Anyone turning against the mob is going to take their time on their decision and think through the risk they are taking. They also know exactly how effective mob justice is and I don't think that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard of evidence. Also, there is an element of "honor" in the mob.

I've known people who were criminals at one point in their life. When they committed crimes, it never occurred to them that they would be caught.
If you don't think you are going to be caught, fear of justice won't stop you. And people who kill little girls, just don't think like you and me.

Walt Nicholson
07-03-2008, 10:18 AM
Give him a fair trial. If found guilty, give him a gun with no ammo, a military uniform with a big American flag on the back, no water or rations, and drop him in the Afganistan desert. Some people deserve more than a cell and three meals a day.

Pat Germain
07-03-2008, 10:19 AM
What I find most disturbing is time and time again when a horrendous crime is commited, it's commited by a person with a record a mile long. I have no problem with executing such criminals, but life in prison with no chance of parole also suits me just fine. Sure, it's expensive. But what's the cost of letting them out? This young lady's life is a tragic example. (Ironically, executing criminals is even more expensive than keeping them locked up for life.)

Thus, I'm all for locking up convicted criminals and keeping them locked up. And I'm quite willing to pay for it. This is one tax I wouldn't mind paying. Whatever the cost of keeping monsters behind bars, I'll pay it.

And life imprisonment with no chance of parole for all sexual predators is a good start. Then there wouldn't be any problem with where such monsters were going to live once they got out. First time offense? You're done. Such a policy won't bring back this beautiful young person from Vermont, but it will prevent more tragedies.

Dennis Peacock
07-03-2008, 10:44 AM
While I agree with you on this very topic....

May I remind each person posting in this thread to keep it civil and non-political. This thread will be watched closely.

Dave Ray
07-03-2008, 10:55 AM
I feel any person found guilty of a crime like this doesn't deserve to live in a civilized society. I am not willing to pay taxes so they might lay around in prison for years. I will however buy the bullets, electricity, rope or injection needed to put this type monster in hell.

Belinda Williamson
07-03-2008, 11:05 AM
Without going into details, I would like to share my viewpoint as a victim. Even had this individual not murdered his victim, he did rob her of her innocence. Not necessariily her virginity, but of her belief that adults (particularly family members) can be trusted to do the right thing. Now granted, I don't know this child's background and that may be a moot point.

Ken does have a point, at least one repeat offender would be taken off the street with the death penalty.

I received a call a number of years ago notifying me that the perpetrator of the crimes against me was being released on parole. Did my heart stop for a moment? Yes, even though I was an adult by that time. I truly felt for an instant that I needed to run as far and as fast as I could. Did I have a desire to hunt him down and put a bullet into him? I can't lie . . . yes again. Did my father feel the same way? Most definitely.

To only look at the situation with respect to what is a "fair" way or "right" way to punish a criminal who has harmed another is completely ignoring what is "fair" or "right" with respect to victim's rights. Call me crazy, but maybe they should let the victim, or victim's family in this case, decide the punishment. That would definitely take the burden off of the judge in the case. Some victims or families may choose to be lenient, others not so, but in all fairness, they are the ones most affected by the crime, not those of us sitting in judgment.

Ken Fitzgerald
07-03-2008, 11:09 AM
Folks,


I wish I hadn't replied to this thread last night. It is an extremely political subject. Thus I deleted my posts.

Angus Hines
07-03-2008, 11:43 AM
Well all I will say on the subject having been there done that, he will get his Justice from his fellow inmates, not to worry. And a good Sheriff will see to it that he doesn't get protective custody. :D His trial will be the easy part.

Scott Kilroy
07-03-2008, 11:56 AM
If death is not really a deterrent then why are people afraid rat out the mob ?

Cause the Mob will kill your family your friends anyone they think might have helped you.

Personally I have to admit I'm not against the death penalty, but it doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent just cause most criminals don't seem to think they'll get caught.

Mike Henderson
07-03-2008, 12:22 PM
I feel any person found guilty of a crime like this doesn't deserve to live in a civilized society. I am not willing to pay taxes so they might lay around in prison for years. I will however buy the bullets, electricity, rope or injection needed to put this type monster in hell.
I don't want to start a debate on capital punishment but I will point out that it's much more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in jail for the rest of their lives - primarily because of the mandated judicial review and appeals. One might argue that we should do away with the review and appeals but that's the price of civilized justice and our reluctance, as a society, to see an innocent person executed.

Mike

Chris Padilla
07-03-2008, 2:27 PM
I don't want to start a debate on capital punishment but I will point out that it's much more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in jail for the rest of their lives - primarily because of the mandated judicial review and appeals. One might argue that we should do away with the review and appeals but that's the price of civilized justice and our reluctance, as a society, to see an innocent person executed.

Mike

Mike, I find that hard to believe but not shocking if true. If you care, can you post some links supporting your statement? One thing for sure, the amount of time it takes to finally execute someone is very very long. I'm of the opinion that if you're sentenced to death at trial, you should be 6 feet under by supper time. :) Will that put some innocent people into an early grave, yes, most likely and unfortunate....

Belinda Williamson
07-03-2008, 2:50 PM
I'm of the opinion that if you're sentenced to death at trial, you should be 6 feet under by supper time. :) Will that put some innocent people into an early grave, yes, most likely and unfortunate....

Chris,

To a certain extent I agree with you. Our opinions differ in that I believe most alleged criminals should be allowed one appeal, on a fast track. Now there are circumstances in which I would waive that one appeal. For example, a lone gunman who walks into a school and opens fire resulting in death/s. In this case there is no question that the perpetrator is guilty, and I personally don't think he/she should even stand trial. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply in this case as he/she is obviously guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt.

I do realize that there are gray areas in cases of rape and molestation where basically you have the word of the accuser against the word of the accused in many cases.

I too would like to see the figures on the cost of execution versus the cost of incarceration on death row for say 30 years or so. We could definitely decrease the cost of execution by eliminating the endless appeal process.

Pat Germain
07-03-2008, 3:01 PM
I mentioned the same thing in an earlier post, Chris. Here's one quote:

NY - The estimated costs for New York’s death penalty, which was reinstated in 1995: $160 million, or approximately $23 million for each person sentenced to death, with no executions likely for many years. (The Times Union, Sept. 22, 2003)

Mike Henderson
07-03-2008, 3:33 PM
Mike, I find that hard to believe but not shocking if true. If you care, can you post some links supporting your statement? One thing for sure, the amount of time it takes to finally execute someone is very very long. I'm of the opinion that if you're sentenced to death at trial, you should be 6 feet under by supper time. :) Will that put some innocent people into an early grave, yes, most likely and unfortunate....
I'd have to do some searching to find some current statistics, Chris. Maybe 20 years ago I did some pretty comprehensive research on capital punishment trying to make up my mind about whether I would support it or not. The data at that time was clear that it was much more expensive to execute someone than to put them in jail for the rest of their lives.

Regarding "fast tracking" executions - there are times when it's very clear someone committed a horrible crime. But the rules we adopt for executions will apply to all people convicted of certain crimes. And history has shown there can be lots of problems in our justice system. People who can't afford a lawyer may get very poor representation. Sometimes witnesses lie, and sometimes there's official misconduct.

It should be hard to put someone to death. And it should take time to make sure that the execution is not being done in the heat of the moment. The crime should shock not only today, but years from now - shock to the extent that reasonable people still say it deserves death as punishment.

Mike

[If you google "death penalty costs" you'll get lots of information on the cost to execute someone, compared to life in prison.

This is just my personal opinion, but if I was facing the choice of life in prison or death by lethal injection, I'd choose death. I've been anesthetized several times in my life - one minute you're there in the operating room and the next minute you're in the recovery room. I imagine the transition from life to death in an execution by lethal injection is similar except you never wake up. For me, that would be preferable to spending every day of the rest of my life confined and unable to do anything. But that's just my opinion.

The only negative I see to life in prison is that notorious criminals (like Charles Manson) can still get publicity. But that would be very rare - most criminals would not have that "press appeal".]

Clifford Mescher
07-04-2008, 9:52 AM
Facts

Predators will volunteer with organizations that have intended victims.
Predators will migrate to locations with lenient laws.
Laws without bite are ineffective.
Laws seem to benefit perpetrators. Clifford

John Shuk
07-04-2008, 10:35 AM
Truly tragic and reveals the very worst humans offer.
May god have mercy on her soul.

Tim Morton
07-05-2008, 6:50 AM
Here is the police timeline....this guy (and many others involved) needs to be be put in prison for life....and I am pro death penalty. But in this case death would be too easy...he needs to spend the rest of his life being the newest recruit for the prison version of the Breckenridge group.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080705/NEWS04/807050382