PDA

View Full Version : How do you stop randomness in Corel?



Michael Kowalczyk
07-01-2008, 1:30 PM
I searched the forum but could not find the right words to use to locate the post that dealt with this issue.

When a graphic is designed in Corel Draw or other vector programs it seems to always laser in the order it was designed. So if you have mirrored or made edits, your laser is like a ping pong ball in a room full of mouse traps.

Sometimes when someone sends you a CDR file it is all over the place and when you have to do 100's of them, it can add up the minutes.

Does anyone know which post it was or can explain it here?

Thanks in advance and I appreciate everyone's willingness to share. Sometimes there is more than one way to accomplish the same thing.

Mike Null
07-01-2008, 1:38 PM
Mike

I think what you're looking for is object manager under the tools menu.

You can put things into order with that.

Carl Sewell
07-01-2008, 1:52 PM
Check the driver for your laser and see if there is an "optimization" or "vector sort" check box.

Mitchell Andrus
07-01-2008, 2:41 PM
You can select objects in the object manager and use the cursor arrows on the keyboard to hit each next object and see the object on screen getting chosen. This is the default cut order. If 'vector sort' doesn't work, you can select and drag/drop stuff in the object manager to clean up the cut order.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-01-2008, 2:42 PM
PDQ Mike,
I thought there was a way of selecting the vectors so that they are joined together and then the laser picks the optimal place to start without having to jump around. Here is an example of what I am talking about. I know what you are talking about Mike but that can be very tedious on an example like these rope arcs with all those segments. Even after you group them it makes no difference. If you connect the numbers with a pen you can see how it jumps around. I am hoping for the green.

In ArtcamPro I am able to join the segments and make it so that it becomes a continuous vector but that works for the CNC side. I may experiment later but the thought of taking a CDR file exporting it as a DWG or DXF, Importing it into ArtcamPro, joining it, exporting it again as a DXF or DWG, importing it back into CorelDraw and then making sure layers and colors are correct is time consuming also. I hoping we can get a one-stop solution that would be easier than the object manager's current method.

It would be nice if Corel had the option so that you could select your vectors or group, click on a button and it would forget its memory and become a continuous line instead of segments with memory.

What ever happened to the Guy from Corel? (I will find his name and insert it later unless someone beats me to it)
Is he still here?

I have not seen any posts from him in a while.

Thanks and ...

Scott Shepherd
07-01-2008, 2:49 PM
Michael, there's no setting in your laser driver? I'd think there is one there for sure. Nothing there?

Does the combine function do anything for you in that situation?

Michael Kowalczyk
07-01-2008, 2:54 PM
Hey Carl,
Thanks for the post but I just got off the phone with Trotec and it does not do it for CDR files. I guess it optimizes the start points that is in the memory of each segment.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-01-2008, 2:56 PM
Hey Scott,
Haven't tried the combine yet but that will be on the list to try 2nite.

Skip Weiser
07-01-2008, 4:37 PM
Michael,

Click on the shape tool, then click your drawing. I'll bet there are nodes at all the stop/start points and it's possible that the lines on either side of the nodes aren't actually joined. I've ran into this making cut files for my router before.

I've had to use the pick tool and click and drag a box around the drawing to select all of it, the ungroup it. Click off of the drawing to unselect everything, then click and drag a box around it again to select all nodes, then combine.

Choose the shape tool and click the drawing again and see if some of the nodes are black/bold. If any are, make a box around that node with the shape tool and click the Join Two Nodes button (top left on the upper toolbar) until they are all joined.

There's probably a faster way of doing that but it works. Maybe someone can post the shortcut way of joining all the nodes.

HTH,
Skip

Cary Fleming
07-01-2008, 5:22 PM
Hey Scott,
Haven't tried the combine yet but that will be on the list to try 2nite.

Hi Michael,

Try the combine as your first test tonight. That will make the many objects into one object in CorelDraw, not just a group of many objects. That is what always works for me.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-01-2008, 6:46 PM
Hey Cary,
COMBINE IS GOOD!:eek:
COMBINE IS GOOD!:rolleyes:
COMBINE IS GOOD!:cool:
COMBINE IS GOOD!:D
COMBINE IS GOOD!:)

How was that?

When you combine does it turn scatter lasering into continuous?

I will be testing it shortly as I make my way back to the laser room and then I will confirm whether
COMBINE IS GOOD!:D
or
COMBINE IS GOOD!:mad:


Thanks again and ...

Michael Kowalczyk
07-01-2008, 8:18 PM
Hi Michael,

Try the combine as your first test tonight. That will make the many objects into one object in CorelDraw, not just a group of many objects. That is what always works for me.

Sorry Cary but "COMBINE IS NO BUENO":( for this particular file.
I tried to combine by selecting one set of segments that make the circle but "Combine was greyed out. So it thinks that all those segments are a single unit. When I selected both inner and outer rings of segments, the "Combine" text was black and I selected it and all that appears to have been accomplished was that they were now grouped together. When I ran the laser with it there was "No Difference".
Here is the test file. Please test it as it is and see what happens. The lines are Red because I have my Trotec laser set to cut but at 80% power and 20 % speed so it just marks them.

Let me know how it works for you and if anyone can correct it easily.
This would be a great YOUTUBE video. hint hint

Mike Null
07-01-2008, 9:24 PM
Mike

I don't see how you can make anything out of this file. I think you need the inner and outer portions as well in order to do anything.

Richard Rumancik
07-01-2008, 9:26 PM
I tried to combine by selecting one set of segments that make the circle but "Combine was greyed out. So it thinks that all those segments are a single unit.
What do you mean by "single unit"? Does Corel think it is a curve? (It should say so at the bottom when you select it.) If it says that it is a "group of x objects" then I don't think you can use combine. In that case you would need to ungroup and then combine.

Try this. Move all the segments that make up the outline to a new layer (OUTLINE). Then lock the other stuff so you don't select it.

Go around the outer loop and make sure everything is just a curve (no groups). If I counted correctly you have 7 pieces. I would add the loop at the top if not already part of the set. Don't include the "loose" pieces under the tab at the top - just the contiguous parts. Select all the items (curves) on the outline and then click "Combine". This may be all you need to make it laser right. But I usually do what Skip suggested and join the overlapping nodes as the result is more predictable to me.

By this I mean nodes which are on two different segments but coincident. By "joining" the nodes you weld them into one node. I won't say this is mandatory as I don't know. I like to have "closed" shapes when possible as it is more robust but sometimes this is not possible. Seems to me in your case you can close the outline. (It is properly closed if Corel will allow you to fill it with a solid color.) You can select the overlapping nodes as Skip suggested.

Alternatively, if you can make it a closed shape, then I sometimes use: Arrange ->Close Path ->closest nodes with straight lines. This command will usually fix up any small (invisible) gaps in the path and it will combine all the overlapping nodes in one swell foop. Saves time if there are lots of nodes that need joining.

When you have multiple curves linked adjacent to one another, one end of each curve will have a small box node and the other end will have a larger box node. I can't remember the cut direction - I think with mine it is vectored "large box to small box". Try it with your laser and see. In some cases, just reversing the direction of a curve or two will fix the problem. (You reverse the curve by right-clicking on one end node of a segment and then "reverse curve".) But I would probably still combine the bits together even if it was an open curve.

If you don't combine the bits, you would have to play with "order" sequence, which is an option, but probably more time consuming. You would have to go around the outline pushing each segment to the back (or front) so it would laser in sequential order.

For some reason I couldn't open your file. It says Corel 8 but my Corel 11 choked on it.

Cary Fleming
07-02-2008, 9:45 AM
Hey Cary,
COMBINE IS GOOD!:eek:
COMBINE IS GOOD!:rolleyes:
COMBINE IS GOOD!:cool:
COMBINE IS GOOD!:D
COMBINE IS GOOD!:)

How was that?

When you combine does it turn scatter lasering into continuous?

I will be testing it shortly as I make my way back to the laser room and then I will confirm whether
COMBINE IS GOOD!:D
or
COMBINE IS GOOD!:mad:


Thanks again and ...
That was great Michael.

In my experience, once objects are combined in Corel my laser treats it as a continuous line and doesn't jump all over the place.

Cary Fleming
07-02-2008, 10:18 AM
Sorry Cary but "COMBINE IS NO BUENO":( for this particular file.
I tried to combine by selecting one set of segments that make the circle but "Combine was greyed out. So it thinks that all those segments are a single unit. When I selected both inner and outer rings of segments, the "Combine" text was black and I selected it and all that appears to have been accomplished was that they were now grouped together. When I ran the laser with it there was "No Difference".
Here is the test file. Please test it as it is and see what happens. The lines are Red because I have my Trotec laser set to cut but at 80% power and 20 % speed so it just marks them.

Let me know how it works for you and if anyone can correct it easily.
This would be a great YOUTUBE video. hint hint
I'll run it when I get back to the laser tonight and post my results. It looks like they have already been combined into a single object, so I would think it would laser in a semi-logical manner.

Cary Fleming
07-02-2008, 10:36 AM
Sorry Cary but "COMBINE IS NO BUENO":( for this particular file.

Let me know how it works for you and if anyone can correct it easily.
This would be a great YOUTUBE video. hint hint
Michael,

Try this file and let me know if it works better. It should start at the top and go around the outer circle and then go around the inner circle. I broke the curve apart. Then I selected the segment that I wanted it to engrave last and I used the Bring to Front of Layer shortcut (Shift-PgUp) and then moved to the segment I wanted to be next to last and brought it to the front of the layer, and so on, and so on, until I got to the segment the I wanted engraved first. Then I selected all of the segments and Combined them. It took 5-7 minutes to complete the whole process, but I think it will fix your problem.

Mark Winlund
07-02-2008, 11:50 AM
This is a common problem with Corel. Corel does not automatically join nodes, which is what you need. Flexi-sign pro has a function that will do this, but it is an expensive program. It does it by choosing two nodes that are within a certain distance of each other, and joining them. If there are three nodes that are within the tolerance, it won't work. Combining does not join nodes; they remain as separate sub-paths in one object. Using only Corel means that you have to do it the hard way, joining them one at a time.

The person from Corel was named McKenzie, or something like that.

This is a function that Corel has needed for many years, but has not addressed. You will find many such gaps in Corel; it was designed as more of a "do everything" program including bit map (paint) functions. A true sign making program such as the old Cas-Mate or Flexi-Sign will do a much better job with vectors.

Mark

Michael Kowalczyk
07-02-2008, 1:07 PM
Mike

I don't see how you can make anything out of this file. I think you need the inner and outer portions as well in order to do anything.

Hey Mike,
I only posted the segments because those were the problem. The inner and outer circles work fine.

I will try what Cary suggested below but will also try what Mark suggested with Flexisign Pro.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-02-2008, 1:12 PM
Hey Richard,
Thanks for the post informative post. Sorry about the file not opening but it is an X3 CDR. I will print your post and try your method also.
Thank you and ...

Michael Kowalczyk
07-02-2008, 1:34 PM
This is a common problem with Corel. Corel does not automatically join nodes, which is what you need. Flexi-sign pro has a function that will do this, but it is an expensive program. It does it by choosing two nodes that are within a certain distance of each other, and joining them. If there are three nodes that are within the tolerance, it won't work. Combining does not join nodes; they remain as separate sub-paths in one object. Using only Corel means that you have to do it the hard way, joining them one at a time.

The person from Corel was named McKenzie, or something like that.

This is a function that Corel has needed for many years, but has not addressed. You will find many such gaps in Corel; it was designed as more of a "do everything" program including bit map (paint) functions. A true sign making program such as the old Cas-Mate or Flexi-Sign will do a much better job with vectors.

Mark

Hey Mark,
Thanks for the nudge. I forgot all about it. I have FlexisignPro 8.5, just upgraded a month or so ago, and have not loaded it on my laser PC ( a regular old IBM Pentium CPU) yet only on my 64bit quadcore. It sure sings on the quad. That's one bonus of having a USB hasp key version being able to have multiple copies on different PC's but only running one at a time. The major problem is that if the $50.00 usb key brakes or is lost it can be costly.:eek:

I hope the laser PC can handle the Flexisign Pro on it. I will probably have to get more Mem.

I will try to join on Flexisign Pro and let you know the results also.

As I mentioned in my 1st post "Sometimes there is more than one way to accomplish the same thing."

I appreciate everyone's help and input and I hope this helps others who may have been struggling with this also or just excepted it to be the "Status Quo" how Corel works on a laser.

Richard Rumancik
07-02-2008, 2:45 PM
This is a common problem with Corel. Corel does not automatically join nodes, which is what you need. . . .<Flexi-sign> does it by choosing two nodes that are within a certain distance of each other, and joining them. If there are three nodes that are within the tolerance, it won't work. Combining does not join nodes; they remain as separate sub-paths in one object. Using only Corel means that you have to do it the hard way, joining them one at a time.

Mark, the procedure I suggested might not be as smooth as Flexi-sign but it sure has helped me. ( Start with a path that "looks" like it could be closed; select all nodes in the path, then Arrange ->Close Path -> closest nodes with straight lines. This command string will usually fix up any small gaps in the path and it will join all the overlapping nodes with this single command. No need to select pairs of nodes and join them one pair at a time.)

In some cases, if it is an open curve, I make it closed and then break it apart at the selected nodes if necessary; then delete the redundant segment.

There is no "tolerance" required like Flexi-sign; if you say you want to join closest nodes with straight lines it will look for the nearest node and fill in the gap.

Sometimes it may hiccup if it gets confused about the nearest node. In that case I just undo and fix the problem area manually, then repeat the sequence.

I can't comment if it will work right for the rope graphic as I can't open it, and don't know how the individual pieces intersect/join each other. It is intended to be used when curves are joined end-to-end.

I sometimes move files from one application to another to do edits, but I sure don't like having to do it.

Robert Ray
07-02-2008, 6:24 PM
I like to use the group command. I group a chunk at the top left, then top middle, top right, middle right, center, middle left, etc... in a serpentine pattern as many times as needed to make sure all the work is done in a certain area before moving on.

This speed things up considerably.

-Robert Ray

James Stokes
07-02-2008, 10:09 PM
Casmate used to have an arange order, I am not sure if Flexi has it or not. It would optimize the cutting order.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-03-2008, 12:00 PM
OK Everyone here is the 411 so far. Flexisignpro was not able to change direction or join and I do not think that joining would solve this. I believe that it must start in Corel Draw or whatever program the graphic is drawn in. I went into Corel and selected all the nodes. I noticed a pattern in the segments that the large and small nodes were reversed on each segment, like mark suggested, that was out of sequence. First time I selected "reverse curve" and it switched ALL the segments :eek:. So cntrl Z and unselect, then select only segment I want to reverse and then select reverse curve. It is time consuming but in many projects it will save much more time than expended, therefore a net gain.

I will test this again tonight on the laser to make sure I am getting the correct results.

And just to make sure we are all on the same page. What I am looking to do is this. I want the little segments to cut in a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 order in the same direction the segments are located on the circle not in a randomized order like 1 2 3 7 4 5 12 9 6 10 8 11.

It sure would be nice if Corel would make it an option for us to change direction globally, by layer, or by selected with the click of a mouse.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-03-2008, 12:11 PM
The person from Corel was named McKenzie, or something like that.

Mark

Hey Mark,
I found him.
Tony Severenuk (Corel) (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=31073) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif

His last post was on March 5. I will PM him to see if he knows anything about this or can get it added as a function.

Mark Winlund
07-03-2008, 8:28 PM
Casmate used to have an arange order, I am not sure if Flexi has it or not. It would optimize the cutting order.


As most of the old timers know, flexi bought out casmate. There are a number of features common to both. Along with the automatic joining feature (it is there!), they have some very well designed distortion features built in to both. One of the best is a true arc distortion for circular logos. The distortions in flexi are all bezier based... the earlier Casmate converted everything to thousands of short line segments, which raised havoc with some plotters and routers.

Mark

Richard Rumancik
07-03-2008, 10:36 PM
Michael, if you have time post the file in Corel 11 format and I will take a look at it.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-03-2008, 11:37 PM
Hey Richard,
Here is the file and I saved it as CDR 10. I hope you read my post above so we are all on the same page. I would hate for anyone to spin their wheels in the mud without at least getting the correct results.

And I hope everyone has a Happy, Safe and Blessed 4th. Please remember to honor those who make it possible for us to continue celebrating this day of Freedom.

Michael Kowalczyk
07-03-2008, 11:54 PM
As most of the old timers know, flexi bought out casmate. There are a number of features common to both. Along with the automatic joining feature (it is there!), they have some very well designed distortion features built in to both. One of the best is a true arc distortion for circular logos. The distortions in flexi are all bezier based... the earlier Casmate converted everything to thousands of short line segments, which raised havoc with some plotters and routers.

Mark

Hey Mark,
I have barely scratched the surface of what Flexisign Pro 8.5XX can do and the last time Mark the Flexi trainer was in town for training, I was in Orlando doing a trade show. So I will have to wait until next time or buy the Training CD's. There is so much to learn and it is an extremely POWERFUL program. I use it for some layout work that Corel can not do.

I also have Casmate 6.5 and it was great for serialization and the "scan and vectorize" feature. I still have the original "Machine Shop" Box with all owners manuals and CD's. Had to dust off about a 1/4" of dust to get at it though.

Skip Weiser
07-04-2008, 12:04 AM
Michael, I don't know if this will help you or not but it's a Corel tutorial from the Epilog site regarding how to use the Object Manager to order your laser vector cuts. Link here (http://www.epiloglaser.com/tl_objectmanager.htm).

HTH,
Skip

Richard Rumancik
07-04-2008, 10:01 AM
Michael

I didn't realize the segments that were causing the problem were all disconnected segments. I couldn't tell from the jpg sketch what was going on.

I don't know of any way to control laser sequence for this other than order. It is tedious but basically I would start at one segment, click on it, and do Arrange ->order -> to back (the shortcut is shift+ pgdn). Then go to the next one and repeat <shift + pgdn>. It is tedious I know but I am not sure if there is an easier way.

Before I thought the elements were connected when I gave a suggested procedure. With disconnected segments it is a different situation altogether.