A couple of old saws

[Stephen Shepherd]

I dug these out of the saw archive (small barrel full of old saws) and thought they were interesting.

I am not sure how old the S&J 7 point half rip saw is, it has spanner bolts and the Bishop has a date on the medallion, and has split nuts.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/BishopSJ.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/SpearsJackson.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/Bishop.jpg

I started to clean them, took a hammer to them and they are now straight, still lots of surface rust. I will probably restore the handle of the S&J and use it, my others are full rips, it feels good, the Bishop I will probably sell or trade, as soon as I figure out its value.

Stephen

[Mark Stutz]

They look like nice old saws with lots of life left. Wish I had a saw archive like that!:D

Not sure I know what a half rip saw is, though. Half rip and half cross-cut? What is the advantage to this type if tooth configuration?

Mark

[Stephen Shepherd]

Mark,

Half rip is a classification of rip saws, and full rips have fewer teeth. I think it is from ripping half thicknesses of boards as opposed to full rips intended for thick boards. The term is a bit confusing, I am not sure I completely understand it myself.

My archive is from my inability to pass by an old saw for $2.00 or less. I have paid a bit more for old ones in good condition but never more than ten dollars.

Stephen

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hey Stephen--I do love Spear & Jacksons.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sj.jpg

Unless someone reshape the heel of the blade, yours is newer than the one above. Most of the oldies were made with a straight heel versus a curved one. So too the medallion change from brass to steel (which is what yours looks like.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/saws/saws_0006a.jpg

Unfortunately, there isn't a definitive work on dating anything other than Disstons. Also, if the blade is etched versus stamped as the one above, 3 crowns stamped around the blade stamp, etc, are also rough ways to date older English saws.

Well, break's over...actually doing woodworking this weekend. Man, it feels good.

Take care, Mike

[Wilbur Pan]

Half rip is a classification of rip saws, and full rips have fewer teeth. I think it is from ripping half thicknesses of boards as opposed to full rips intended for thick boards. The term is a bit confusing, I am not sure I completely understand it myself.

Hi Stephen,

Any idea what "thick" means? 4/4? 6/4? or 8/4 stock?

[Ganthan Rhodes]

Nice saws. They'll look good spruced up. Do you have any old Canadian saws in your barrel, Steven?

According to E. H. Knight in his 1876 book "American Mechanical Dictionary", a half rip has the following characteristics:

Length - 26-28 inches (versus 28-30 for a full rip)
Breadth at Handle - 6-8 inches (versus 7-9)
Breadth at Toe - 3-3.5 inches (versus 3-4)
Saw Plate Thickness - 0.042 inches (versus 0.05)
PPI - 4 ppi (versus 3-1/2)

It's been a while since he wrote that, so I'm not sure if the terminology still applies.

G.R.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Stephen,

Richard Greenhalgh "Joinery and Carpentry" pp 53, simply says.

"A half rip saw is the same as a rip saw except that they have slightly smaller teeth."

I wonder why you would need a half-rip? Smaller timber?

I am waiting for a book to arrive, "The Story of the Saw" Spear & Jackson 1760 to 1960. It was published for S&J's 200th anniversary.

Perhaps someone else out there may have a copy and see if there are any
clues as to dating medallions in it.

Regards Ray

[Martin Cash]

Hi Stephen,

Richard Greenhalgh "Joinery and Carpentry" pp 53, simply says.

"A half rip saw is the same as a rip saw except that they have slightly smaller teeth."

I wonder why you would need a half-rip? Smaller timber?



Regards Ray

You would be right here Ray - used with thinner stock.
regards
MC

[Stephen Shepherd]

Mike, et al,

The medallion is solid brass, I had to look myself.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/Moresawnuts.jpg

And it appears the saw handle was modified:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/SJhandle.jpg

And here is what is under the handle, that one bolt just missed. It is marked with an X.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/SJunderhandle.jpg

And here is an interesting image, note the depressions on each tooth, it appears on the entire saw on both sides:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/SJsettingmarks.jpg

It looks like it will be a user after I join, sharpen and whet. I will also repair the handle but not the bottom modification, I will let that stand.

Stephen

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Cool Stephen. The color of the medallion in the picture must have been from years of...gunk.

The setting of the saw from the teeth picture looks like the drift pin or nail set method. And struck fairly hard as well.

I love it when a saw comes back to life and finds use again, Stephen!

Take care, Mike

[Stephen Shepherd]

I forgot to include this image, I started removing the rust by sanding the blade. I got it wet then covered with fine sand and rubbed by hand. Got my fingertips and palms very clean, and did a fair job on the saw.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/SJsandingblade.jpg

And I have been noting subtle differences in the nicker nibs on old saws, some look sharpened such as this one.

Stephen

[James Mittlefehldt]

Nice saws. They'll look good spruced up. Do you have any old Canadian saws in your barrel, Steven?

G.R.

I do I do.

Like Steven I cannot resist an old saw with any quality to it. I have a number of Shurley and Dietrichs and R. H. Smith plus an old Groves & Sons from Sheffield, and a couple by that guy from Phiadelphia.

I am a bit more extravagant though I have paid as much as $15. I have the urge for planes under control but no one warned me about the slippery slope of hand saws.

[Stephen Shepherd]

Hey Stephen--I do love Spear & Jacksons.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sj.jpg

Unless someone reshape the heel of the blade, yours is newer than the one above. Most of the oldies were made with a straight heel versus a curved one. So too the medallion change from brass to steel (which is what yours looks like.


Take care, Mike

Mike,

That photograph you posted just cut off at the handle, so I can't see what the original looks like, mine is certainly modified. But if I could see the top 'horn' in its entirety, I will be able to replicate the missing (broken) part.

Thanks

Stephen

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Stephen--yeah, the picture I have of the handle is so blurry I need to take another. There's a reason God invented tripods...

I've thrown the camera in the van and will try to get one tonight.

Take care, Mike

[Ray Gardiner]

Mike,

I have been playing around with ways of documenting saw handles (totes)
and the best method I have found so far is to use a flatbed scanner.

Scan at 72 dpi is more than enough, and put a ruler across the bottom of
the scanner so you can scale correctly when printing out a pattern.

The advantage of this method is you don't get perspective distortion and
you get the image directly on the computer. I guess you could do the
same with just a photocopier, but then it's a bit harder to post on a forum.

Regards
Ray

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Ray,

A scanner would mean I need to clean off my wife's desk...and I value my life <g>!

A digital camera works well enough for my purposes. I posted a link last night on Stephen's blog (y'all do read his blog, right?) to the handle picture. Kept forgetting to take the darn camera to work.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sj_handle.jpg

Take care, Mike

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Ray,

A scanner would mean I need to clean off my wife's desk...and I value my life <g>!

A digital camera works well enough for my purposes. I posted a link last night on Stephen's blog (y'all do read his blog, right?) to the handle picture. Kept forgetting to take the darn camera to work.

Take care, Mike

I got my own scanner, (actually she got a new one, I got the cast off).
Following your pointer I now read the fullchisel blog, very enjoyable.

Here is the template idea, you scan the handle at 72dpi, bring the image into photoshop
or whatever, overlay a grid and merge the layers, finally export as jpeg. Looks a bit like this.

Then you can print out a template, and adjust the print scaling for 1:1 or if you
want a slightly larger or smaller handle for different sized hands, you can print out
a little bigger or smaller.

The split nut holes should be marked from the blade, not the template.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hey Ray,

Just sent you an email from the thread off the OT list...

As for templates, I sorta do the same. I take the digital image into Illustrator or CorelDraw, create a vector drawing of the handle and or blade. The drawings show the saw lines for where to cut the slots, the amount of rounding, chamfers if appropriate, etc.

This is then printed, glued to a piece of 3 mm ply, cut out and is our templates.

btw, I have 3 or 4 of them Taylors. Like the buggers.

Take care, Mike

[harry strasil]

FWIW - Don't know about other brands, but on my two old Disstons, I found out the hard way about the handle bolts. It seems on my two old Disstons the bolts were hand made as well as the nuts and luckily I screwed the nuts back on the bolts when I removed the handles, but I neglected to label the smaller ones as to which holes they came out of. and had to play around to get them back in their proper places as they are not interchangable.

[harry strasil]

Also I like to use a variation of American Indian sandpaper on some metal things. Ie. fine silica sand and a piece of soft leather as a means to hold the sand, I have also used MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) in conjunction with the sand and leather, as MMO is a great rust disolver and the reidue makes a great protectorant. For light rust on a polished tool just apply a drop or two of MMO and rub gently with your finger, also works well for light rust on blued firearms and it doesn't scratch this way.
FWIW

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Harry,
I have had a similar problem with split nuts, often they have been filed flush after assembly and the nuts are no longer flat, the only way I get around it is to mark the position of every screw and split nut before dissassembling. I just use a marker pen, so far it has worked well enough.


Regards
Ray

[Stephen Shepherd]

Yes they are hole specific and it is a good idea to keep them in pairs, or you can spend fifteen minutes trying to find matches. I learned the hard way. As for fitting once I found the right hole then it was a matter of which of 4 way it went into the hole.

Stephen