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Cliff Rohrabacher
06-25-2008, 11:00 AM
What do they teach you in the event of capture by those who torture?

Resist? don't resist? what?

Glenn Clabo
06-25-2008, 11:12 AM
In the old days...Always resist...never provide any information beyond name rank and serial number. There have been some changes to this over the years because many of our enemies do not follow the Geneva Convention rules. Never give out secrets or information that would be helpful to the enemy is a given...but there are less strict "cooperation" rules. It is much more complicated now.

Scott Kilroy
06-25-2008, 11:56 AM
It used to be that you would be held accountable for public statements you made while being held, which is no longer the case.

jeremy levine
06-25-2008, 11:58 AM
I think the new standard is resist each time even if you gave information the last time. I don't think I could do it.

Andy Hoyt
06-25-2008, 12:09 PM
Join the Navy, get assigned as a member of an aircrew, and go through SERE School.

Lee Schierer
06-25-2008, 12:23 PM
There is a military Code of conduct (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/codeofconduct1.htm) that provides guidance for all military personnel on how to handle themselves if captured. In my old units, we used to have regular training on this, but I have been away for several years now so I can't say for sure what they do now.

It is a matter of conscience to the individual as to how much you resist. I was never in the situation that the prisoners have endured and as I understand it almost anyone can be broken with the right techniques. Giving in can not always assure the individual they will survive. Many non-conventional fighters will dispose of their captives as soon as they are no longer useful and they do not abide by the Geneva or any other civilized conventions.

Don Abele
06-25-2008, 12:31 PM
Lee, you got.

The Code of Conduct is what all members of the Armed Services must abide by. I can only speak for the Navy, but the training is required annually for all Sailors.

As a submariner there are a lot of secrets rattling around in my head that I would never want the enemy (or even some of our allies) to get. Don't know how I would fare in keeping it from them (and hope I never have to find out).

Be well,

Doc

Butch Edwards
06-25-2008, 7:55 PM
one of the General orders of a soldier is to attempt escape,no matter what. it'sbetter to die trying tht than to die from torture at the hands of the enemy. my 2cents

mark page
06-25-2008, 8:56 PM
I second that Andy---SERE school will open you up some, and they're the good guys. Been there & done that. Never been a POW, but come close to something like that in XXXXXXX in '81/82. All jokes aside, I was puckered enough an experienced RN couldn't take my temperature "non-orally". We were all briefed on the same "misinformation" to give under duress. I had the extreme displeasure of witnessing an "interogation" on the "good guy" side once. One thing that is for sure, is if someone wants information from you & you still have a pulse and breathing before and after the "interogations", between drugging & a multitude of many many ways, everyone cracks. Everyone has their individual thresholds whatever those levels may be. Not saying that people didn't take info to the grave, just saying they didn't live long enough for that info to be "extracted". Deep down in my heart and soul, if someone ever boasted to me otherwise, I could look them straight in the eyes and call them a liar, and I never use that word loosely. I just thank God that I was always on the "greener grass" side of the fence and not the other side.
Edit: The interogation I witnessed was NOT conducted by a member of the USA armed forces, but was of a NATO Allied country member. I AM NOT saying anything derogatory at all about any member of the armed forces of the USA or any intentions/allegations towards that. I extremely do not wish anyone to miss-interpret what I have just stated.

Glenn Clabo
06-26-2008, 6:13 AM
Doc...
I figure we are all set. NOBODY would believe what we told them and they would kill us quickly for lying. ;)

Don Abele
06-26-2008, 12:15 PM
Doc...
I figure we are all set. NOBODY would believe what we told them and they would kill us quickly for lying. ;)

LOL :p Yup - cuz I'd start with all the secrets that NO ONE wants to hear :D

Be well,

Doc

Andy Hoyt
06-26-2008, 12:23 PM
On the other hand, Don.

Just tell 'em where you really work; and let loose with all that fancy high-minded 18th century technology.

Ken Fitzgerald
06-26-2008, 12:25 PM
Doc...Becareful about giving up personal medical information...HIPPA and all that you know!:rolleyes:

Cliff Rohrabacher
06-26-2008, 2:19 PM
Join the Navy, get assigned as a member of an aircrew, and go through SERE School.

I can't. The cut off age is 35.

I'm way past that.

Ben Rafael
06-26-2008, 3:41 PM
Why not just lie?
Tell the torturers stuff that doesn't matter without key details, stuff that is essentially public info. Make stuff up. Describe scary sharp to them and tell them it is the new way to polish sub propellers to be quieter.
Am I missing something here?

David DeCristoforo
06-26-2008, 4:33 PM
Why not just lie?
Tell the torturers stuff that doesn't matter without key details, stuff that is essentially public info. Make stuff up....Am I missing something here?

No you are not missing anything. In fact, this is the most valid argument against torture. The basic theory is that a person will do exactly as you suggest in order to get their tormentors to stop. So information gained by these methods is usually not worth much anyway. We are supposed to understand this and accept it as one of the reasons we don't do this stuff. The idea that these methods are being employed on any level by anyone associated with our country is unconscionable and should make us all ashamed. And anyone who has endured this kind of treatment in the service of his or her country should be granted at least a comfortable living for the remainder of his or her life.

Scott Kilroy
06-26-2008, 4:59 PM
Why not just lie?
Tell the torturers stuff that doesn't matter without key details, stuff that is essentially public info. Make stuff up. Describe scary sharp to them and tell them it is the new way to polish sub propellers to be quieter.
Am I missing something here?

Some people are good at lying, but most aren't. Think about what you did for the past three days. Now imagine that you have to give a detailed account for your time but need to lie. You have to invent 72 hours and you're going to be asked a lot of details. You're going to be asked to repeat the story over and over by someone who's going to try to trip you up and when you make a mistake they're going to hurt you.

The move Unforgiven has a brief but accurate example of how torturing for information works.

M Toupin
06-26-2008, 5:50 PM
Why not just lie?
Tell the torturers stuff that doesn't matter without key details, stuff that is essentially public info. Make stuff up. Describe scary sharp to them and tell them it is the new way to polish sub propellers to be quieter.
Am I missing something here?

Service members are supposed to abide by the Military Code of Conduct
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/code_of_conduct/the-code-of-conduct.shtml

Bottom line is you're supposed to evade answering questions to the utmost of your ability.

Everyone breaks, it's just a matter of how soon. Professional interrogators are just that, professional. They can spot a lie from a mile away. You'd be surprised what you'd say after a few days of sleep deprivation and a side order of pain. Military interrogation is not a game you want to play, especially with someone who doesn't abide by the Geneva Convention.

Mike

Cliff Rohrabacher
06-26-2008, 6:19 PM
Service members are supposed to abide by the Military Code of Conduct (link omitted)

Moo-Chose Grass-EE-Ass
That's the ticket.

Of course "utmost of my ability" is a highly subjective thing.



Everyone breaks, it's just a matter of how soon.

Well terror and agony will tend to undermine even the toughest resolve.


Professional interrogators are just that, professional.

Unless there is a higher calling at play in the business I think I'd prefer to call them experts.


You'd be surprised what you'd say after a few days of sleep deprivation and a side order of pain. Add a couple fingernails yanked out and knuckles mashed over and over and maybe a toe or three lopped off with some creative use of electricity. I have no illusions.

I was wondering because I recall being told that they instructions are not to expose yourself to physical harm. And based on that I wanted to be able to speak to the question in another dialog elsewhere.

M Toupin
06-26-2008, 6:54 PM
I recall being told that they instructions are not to expose yourself to physical harm.

By the very nature of combat, one exposes himself/herself to physical harm... I'm just guessing, but I don't think you'd have a whole lot of options if you found yourself being interrogated by the other side. Never been in that situation, but I really can't see them agreeing not to torture you just because you asked nice :)

Stephen Beckham
06-26-2008, 8:11 PM
Not sure anymore Ken - you might be on to something - with all the 'leaks' going around these days, National Security doesn't to seem have as much bite as Hippa these days... :eek:

Steve Benson
06-26-2008, 9:27 PM
As i am currently in the Navy and have spent the last 6 years on a sub i will say i have never attended code of conduct training. Not saying that is a correct thing. I have attended lots of training, but i feel that the likelihood of them capturing me from the engineroom of a sub is unlikely. Also if we had to abandon ship and got rescued off the coast of china lets say and they captured the crew, let me tell you i wouldn't be the person to talk to about what the sub was doing.

Steve

Joe Chritz
06-27-2008, 7:26 AM
The days of "civilized" armies are long over.

Never die with live ammo left.

Interrogation is an interesting field. I have had a fair amount of training in conducting both interviews (giving information voluntarily) and interrogation (giving information involuntarily).

True physical torture always gets information and almost always incomplete and unreliable information. There are better ways to generate stress.

Joe

Ben Rafael
06-27-2008, 8:52 AM
The days of "civilized" armies are long over.

Never die with live ammo left.

Interrogation is an interesting field. I have had a fair amount of training in conducting both interviews (giving information voluntarily) and interrogation (giving information involuntarily).

True physical torture always gets information and almost always incomplete and unreliable information. There are better ways to generate stress.

Joe

Anybody who has kids, if you can remember when they were babies, knows that sleep deprivation is the best form of torture, it is brutal and leaves no marks.