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Joe Pelonio
06-24-2008, 3:11 PM
This afternoon I am starting on a job which involves installing about 500 ADA signs at a new high school still in the final stages of construction.

Is anyone aware of any recent changes that I need to be aware of on installation? As far as I know the proposed changes have not yet been made law so we should go by what is law currently.

Here's what I have, for your review, please correct if wrong:

60" from floor to center of sign

Placement on the wall nearest the latch side of door

4" from edge of sign to door for new construction (3" on existing buildings)

We are planning to put many of them on the glass relights, hopefully that is still considered wall or there is no possible place to put them.

Update:

I managed to get a hold of a human at the Justice Department, responsible for enforcement of ADA, and verified that we should use the old regulations until the new ones under review are actually approved.

Bart Leetch
06-24-2008, 3:57 PM
This afternoon I am starting on a job which involves installing about 500 ADA signs at a new high school still in the final stages of construction.

Is anyone aware of any recent changes that I need to be aware of on installation? As far as I know the proposed changes have not yet been made law so we should go by what is law currently.

Here's what I have, for your review, please correct if wrong:

60" from floor to center of sign

Placement on the wall nearest the latch side of door

4" from edge of sign to door for new construction (3" on existing buildings)

We are planning to put many of them on the glass relights, hopefully that is still considered wall or there is no possible place to put them.

You need to be aware of the rules for both city, state & federal.

There are places to look on the internet I don't have the URLs right now but you should be able to do a search for them make sure you have the latest info. its no fun going back to do it all over again.

Bill Dunn jr
06-24-2008, 4:36 PM
Hi Joe,

I would contact the L&I official that covers the area where the school is being built. I've been out of cmmercial construction for a few years now, but everything you say is correct as far as I know. Some of these guys interpret things so differently, get him to tell you where he wants them. It would be brutal to have to change 500 signs. I would also do what Bart said and check with the local guys.

Joe Pelonio
06-24-2008, 6:14 PM
First, the start has been delayed to Wednesday, as the project manager didn't get us a copy of the plans in time. We sort of need to know which room is which.

This is a private (Catholic) school and may not have the same regulations as a public school, but were are several interesting things done during construction that we noticed and had never seen before. For example, a 12" high "fence" of 2" pipe to keep a blind person in a wheelchair from running into stairs where they are exposed (freestanding). They also have illuminated signs with the wheelchair symbol and the words "Disabled Refuge" which is where people meet in case of fire alarm or other emergencies for help getting out.

After exhaustive research, it turns out that the city, county, and state here all follow the federal regulations. I also found out that in California, while the federal regulations are followed, they have established statewide conformity standards for signs, while other states have flexibility as to shape, size and color. Many other states including ours have a specific
sign just for vehicle parking spaces.

Keith Outten
06-24-2008, 10:58 PM
There isn't a prescribed distance from the edge of the door, just make sure that a person may approach within 3 in (76 mm) of the sign without encountering protruding objects or standing within the swing of a door. I use a standard door edge to center of sign measurment of 9" and adjust the distance when necessary. On my 6" wide door signs the edge of door to edge of sign is 6".

I made an installation tool from a piece of aluminum flat bar 65" long. I have two holes in the flat bar that corespond to the two keyholes machined in the back of my door signs. I place the flat bar 9" from the door edge and the bottom rests on the floor so each sign is positioned uniformly.


28 CFR Part 36
Revised as of July 1, 1994

4.30.6 Mounting Location and Height.
Where permanent identification is provided
for rooms and spaces, signs shall be installed
on the wall adjacent to the latch side of the
door. Where there is no wall space to the latch
side of the door, including at double leaf
doors, signs shall be placed on the nearest
adjacent wall. Mounting height shall be 60 in
(1525 mm) above the finish floor to the
centerline of the sign. Mounting location for
such signage shall be so that a person may
approach within 3 in (76 mm) of signage
without encountering protruding objects or
standing within the swing of a door.

Joe Pelonio
06-25-2008, 9:07 AM
There isn't a prescribed distance from the edge of the door, just make sure that a person may approach within 3 in (76 mm) of the sign without encountering protruding objects or standing within the swing of a door. I use a standard door edge to center of sign measurment of 9" and adjust the distance when necessary. On my 6" wide door signs the edge of door to edge of sign is 6".

I made an installation tool from a piece of aluminum flat bar 65" long. I have two holes in the flat bar that corespond to the two keyholes machined in the back of my door signs. I place the flat bar 9" from the door edge and the bottom rests on the floor so each sign is positioned uniformly.



It seems that if the sign is 3" from the door edge, you have the minimum plus the width of the door frame. When the doors open in it wouldn't matter. They want uniformity, as much as possible.

That tool is a great idea. These are 2-sided foam tape, but I can adapt to it. Sure would make it go faster.

Larry Bratton
06-26-2008, 7:40 PM
Joe:
In so far as I know, the excerpt Ken posted is current. I have a manual that I purchased a couple of years back from Accent when I got the braille license for their system. I refer to it all the time and have never had a problem. I follow the same guidelines per Ken's post. However, I would question as to whether or not the regs would have to be followed to the letter since this is not a public building. I do imagine though that the owner and architect have specified same, so that is what will have to be followed. Would they have blind students at this school? I am somewhat out of touch with that, since it's been a longggg time since I have been in a school. I'm sure things have changed since then.

Joe Pelonio
06-27-2008, 5:52 PM
Joe:
Would they have blind students at this school? I am somewhat out of touch with that, since it's been a longggg time since I have been in a school. I'm sure things have changed since then.
I doubt it. Would be hard for them to pass the entrance exam. Most blind students will go to a special school where they can learn braille and other special skills. The ADA requirement though is not just for students, a blind parent could be there for a parent-teacher conference, for example.

Larry Bratton
06-27-2008, 8:46 PM
Joe:
ADA applies to public buildings only or places that receive the public. My thought is that a private school is not a public building. Now, they can certainly make their building accessible, which is a proper thing to do, but are they REQUIRED to by the law? I wonder sometimes how many times the braille we put on signs is actually used by blind persons.
I know public schools have to conform as they are obviously public buildings with government monies involved. I recently looked at a bid on a sign project for a public school and it was all ADA signage. Again, I had the same thought. However, the law is the law.

Keith Outten
06-28-2008, 6:11 AM
I installed 34 new door signs Thursday from the batch of 140 that I am running right now for one of our residence halls. Yesterday I engraved nine laptops for our Library Staff then back to engraving door signs getting the next lot ready to install. This is a never ending task with literally thousands of door signs ahead of me, I just found out that our newest residence hall has lost most of its acrylic door signs and has moved up on the priority list.

The new Corian door signs are working well, machining two keyholes on each sign and using LocTite Power Grab when I hang them has reduced our sign loss to just a couple signs per year per building. The residence hall I am working on now lost every acrylic door sign in two years that cost us $15,000 when the building was built. The new Corian signs will be a major cost savings to the taxpayers, the problem is i can't make them fast enough.

.

Danny Nichols
07-02-2008, 3:21 PM
Keith

Sounds like a nice problem to have. Would really like to see one of the corian door signs you are hanging, could you post a picture.

Keith Outten
07-02-2008, 6:27 PM
Danny,

Visit this link and check the first picture. This is a typical door sign that I make at Christopher Newport University. The contor line is routed and painted, the text, numbers and sail graphics are cut from LaserMax 1/16" thick engravers plastic.

I'll have to get some better pictures next week, I have a few that are multi-colored based on the same sign shape. I have used this same sign blank for awards plaques as well.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=79261&highlight=corian+door+sign
.

Larry Bratton
07-02-2008, 8:06 PM
I installed 34 new door signs Thursday from the batch of 140 that I am running right now for one of our residence halls. Yesterday I engraved nine laptops for our Library Staff then back to engraving door signs getting the next lot ready to install. This is a never ending task with literally thousands of door signs ahead of me, I just found out that our newest residence hall has lost most of its acrylic door signs and has moved up on the priority list.

The new Corian door signs are working well, machining two keyholes on each sign and using LocTite Power Grab when I hang them has reduced our sign loss to just a couple signs per year per building. The residence hall I am working on now lost every acrylic door sign in two years that cost us $15,000 when the building was built. The new Corian signs will be a major cost savings to the taxpayers, the problem is i can't make them fast enough.

.
Say Keith, not to be off topic here, but what happened with the Corian shared orders? Haven't heard anymore.

I am making a lot of door IDs right now. I am using 1/4" melamine, engraved and paint filled. These are for apartments. I am anxious to give the Corian a try. It really looks great.

Keith Outten
07-03-2008, 6:05 AM
Larry,

Sorry, I dropped the ball on this one. Jackie and my youngest daughter just got back from several days in Atlanta and Aaron has been transitioning from his full time job at William and Mary to their Doctoral Program so I have been the only Admin here for almost a week.

Last weekend we finished installing the last few pieces of trim cover on my house so I really need to get this Corian order going, I need five sheets to build the new columns on my porch and that is the last job to do on the house exterior. I will check with Jackie to see who sent us their addresses so I can send our totals to my distributor. I think that I still have to figure shipping and packaging but I can get that done this weekend.

If you have already sent your shipping address to Jackie I will send you a couple of my door sign blanks that are ready to engrave so you can try them out. You have to play with your laser settings to get the Corian to engrave right at 0.031" deep. This will provide the perfect depth for gluing your letters and braille balls. Use CA glue for the letters, numbers and graphics. Braille balls can be either press fit or you can use craft glue for additional security. CA glue melts acrylic.

If you use Corian for awards or plaques other than ADA signs you can spray paint the surface filling the engraved areas then sand the plaque with a random orbital sander which will remove all the paint on the surface leaving pristine engraved areas. For multiple colors I use Testors model paint and just wipe it in the engraved areas with a brush then sand the top surface. No muss no fuss no masking :)

.

Keith Outten
07-03-2008, 6:46 AM
Here are a couple of pictures that might help. The first is a picture of several signs that have just been painted. I don't use this technique anymore, now I spray paint without having to tape the edges...before I route the edge prep so the routing removes any paint that gets on the edges. Sorry about the picture quality, they were just quick shots I took awhile back and they are very grainy. I don't paint the sails anymore either, I switched to cutting the sails from LaserMax and gluing them in so they are raised rather than painted. I have made many changes to my fabrication technique on these door signs in an effort to reduce fabrication time and improve the quality. For instance these days I put on a rubber glove and hold the plaque in my hand to spray paint the contor line. I use Ace Hardware spray paint with a ten minute drying time so the first blanks painted are ready to sand when the last have been painted. After sanding the surface they are edge routed then laser engraved. I also stopped using ABS plastic for letters and numbers, everything is cut from LaserMax now. The fancy signs that have pictograms for the stairs and such are real eye-poppers :)

Routing the contor line dropped my engraving time from 45 minutes to just eight minutes per sign.

Back on topic...for installation I use two templates. One is the aluminum flat bar I mentioned earlier the other is an acrylic template shaped identically to the sign. There are times when you can't use the flat bar when obstructions are between the sign and the floor. When this happens I use the acrylic template and measure the distance with a tape measure. I am currently modifying my acrylic template to include a level that is built in so I won't have to reach for my torpedo level and this will eliminate another step. I will also install a small level on the flat bar this week, this will allow me to mark both holes on the wall for drilling in one step.
.

Larry Bratton
07-03-2008, 6:19 PM
Keith:
I have sent it to you via PM at least once. Check and see if you have it. If not, I can send again.
Thanks

Joe Pelonio
08-11-2008, 5:19 PM
Still working on this one, I installed another couple of hundred today and thought I'd show one of the signs (I didn't make them). The laminate matches the table tops and other decor. I still say that the braille up top like this is not up to ADA.

BTW they are in the process of bringing in the furnishings, equipment and computers, and I've never seen so many boxes in one place with the label "Made in China". Ever heard of Lenovo computers? Apparently (I looked them up) the 4th biggest seller in U.S. and based in Beijing, with office also in N. Carolina.

Scott Shepherd
08-11-2008, 7:34 PM
Lenovo is what used to be IBM if I recall correctly.

It's now the Lenovo "ThinkPad" instead of the IBM "ThinkPad".

Joe Pelonio
08-11-2008, 9:23 PM
Ah, that makes sense. There were several hundred, if not thousands of those so I guess with tuition at $15,000+ each kid gets a laptop.

Joe Pelonio
09-02-2008, 4:35 PM
28 CFR Part 36
Revised as of July 1, 1994

4.30.6 Mounting Location and Height.
Where permanent identification is provided
for rooms and spaces, signs shall be installed
on the wall adjacent to the latch side of the
door. Where there is no wall space to the latch
side of the door, including at double leaf
doors, signs shall be placed on the nearest
adjacent wall. Mounting height shall be 60 in
(1525 mm) above the finish floor to the
centerline of the sign. Mounting location for
such signage shall be so that a person may
approach within 3 in (76 mm) of signage
without encountering protruding objects or
standing within the swing of a door.

Keith,

As it turns out the distance to the edge is not a problem the height is.
I installed them all with the 60" from floor to centerline using a fabricated tool as you suggested.

The inspector has told the contractor that the signs need to be moved down 1/2", because the braille has to be between 48 and 60" from the floor, and most of them have the braille below the room number, just above the center of the sign so at 60.5". The the new proposed standard is 48-60, which they appear to be following though I had called the Justice Department to verify that I should not use the proposed regulations since they have yet to be approved.

My customer, another sign company for whom I did the installation, and who was with me when the school's facilities manager agreed to 60"/center
has decided that we will not move them until we have in writing that he will be paid for the additional time to move them.

I personally don't think we should move them, since we know it would make them out of compliance despite the inspector's wishes. I'm willing to bet that he misunderstood that the new regulations are proposed and not to
be used yet, since this is the first ADA required construction in the city since they were incorporated.

Keith Outten
09-02-2008, 5:21 PM
Joe,

I'm not surprised that the Inspector is confused concerning the difference between the current COFR and the changes that have been proposed. It has been a very long time since the COFR has been revised and those not in the business don't realize that we are still stuck with the old regulation. The current regulation doesn't specify the height of the braille from the floor, just the center of the sign.

I'm with you, I would not adjust the height to the proposed regulation and violate the existing law unless the customer agreed in writing to take responsibility and pay for the change.
.

Joe Pelonio
09-02-2008, 5:56 PM
Joe,

I'm with you, I would not adjust the height to the proposed regulation and violate the existing law unless the customer agreed in writing to take responsibility and pay for the change.
.
Thanks for the confirmation.

Bob Cole
09-02-2008, 7:58 PM
How does that work with the inspect requiring one thing but you know the law states something different?

I haven't had to deal with inspectors so curious how that could play out.

Keith Outten
09-03-2008, 8:22 AM
Bob,

Normally an Inspector will reverse a decision if you provide him/her with the paragraph of the specification that has legal precedence. In spite of what many think it is impossible for any Inspector to know the content of every code and every project specification so they need to be informed on occasion, especially when it is an area they don't deal with every day.

If he/she is a knucklehead then you may have a short battle on your hands. You can probably win the battle but you may very well lose the war if you don't use your best bedside manner when confronting a Project Inspector. the best course of action is to be professional and ask him/her to re-evaluate their decision based on the project documents.

Most large commercial projects have a means of requesting a decision from the project Architect or Engineer. Basically a form you fill out when you need additional information or directives. You can use this venue if you feel it is your best avenue, of course you can always take your case to the customer or the Inspectors Supervisor. Remember that often drawings and specifications will conflict, in these cases the specification normally has precedence.

.

Joe Pelonio
09-03-2008, 9:27 AM
Our city only incorporated in 1999. Since then I have had several issues. I had an order for the very first "land use" sign. Their requirements were not possible to meet. With the required letter sizes and number of lines of text,
logos etc. there's no way it would fit on the required board size without lines of text overlapping! Since they have had a city staff there's been a lot of residential development, but this school and an elementary that also opened yesterday are the only buildings I can think of that would have required ADA, so it may be their first time inspecting for it. This is all further complicated by the number of hands in on it. The school's general contractor hired a design firm to do the sign specs, among other things. A sign company in Seattle made them. Then the installation went to a sign company in Bellevue who subbed it out to me.

Joe Hayes
09-21-2008, 10:57 AM
Still working on this one, I installed another couple of hundred today and thought I'd show one of the signs (I didn't make them). The laminate matches the table tops and other decor. I still say that the braille up top like this is not up to ADA.

BTW they are in the process of bringing in the furnishings, equipment and computers, and I've never seen so many boxes in one place with the label "Made in China". Ever heard of Lenovo computers? Apparently (I looked them up) the 4th biggest seller in U.S. and based in Beijing, with office also in N. Carolina.



I still say that the braille up top like this is not up to ADA.

Joe, please do not take my comments in the wrong way. From everything I have read and done with ADA signage, it is my understanding that the braille is always below the last line of text. Am I incorrect? Have I missed something? (it is always possible for that to happen to me) Was this some sort of request by the customer to have it done this way? Please correct me if I am wrong - I really want to learn not trying to be smart (you not what).

Scott Shepherd
09-21-2008, 11:23 AM
I agree with you Joe Hayes. In this case, Joe didn't make the signs, he just installed them.

I see this stuff almost every day and I see 10 to 1 signs that I don't believe are true ADA compliant. I see the braille above, below, to the left or right of the text. I thought the regulations were fairly straight forward, but either I'm missing something on my reading of it, or there are a lot of people out there who just make what they want to make.

My vote is that people are just making what they want to make.

Joe Hayes
09-21-2008, 10:04 PM
Thanks for your reply. I missed the fact that Joe did not make those. I, like you, run into several ADA signs that are not up to what I understand to be correct and ADA compliant.
All in all I find the regulations to straight forward. What I do run into quite often is architects seem to have no clue what is correct and tend to spec out sign by habit.

Joe Pelonio
09-26-2008, 9:28 AM
Yes, as I understand the ADA specifications, the braille for multiple lines of
text has to go at the bottom, making many of those signs I installed out-of-compliance. As for the installation height, the city inspector was finally given my arguments by the building contractor's superintendent.

The inspector's response was "we do not follow the federal requirements."

OK!

Bart Leetch
09-26-2008, 9:55 AM
Yes, as I understand the ADA specifications, the braille for multiple lines of
text has to go at the bottom, making many of those signs I installed out-of-compliance. As for the installation height, the city inspector was finally given my arguments by the building contractor's superintendent.

The inspector's response was "we do not follow the federal requirements."

OK!

That is fine as long as they have met or exceeded federal requirements.

But if they haven't the feds will put a knot in their tail & jerk it out for them.:eek::D

Joe Pelonio
09-26-2008, 11:44 AM
That is fine as long as they have met or exceeded federal requirements.

But if they haven't the feds will put a knot in their tail & jerk it out for them.:eek::D
I'm anxiously awaiting that, but it will probably not happen until someone makes a complaint to the Justice Department.

Bob Cole
09-27-2008, 2:01 AM
If the signs also do not meet the regs not sure I would want the feds involved. Guess you are in a rock and a hard place.

I wish you luck.

I was at a hospital today and got to looking at their signs and they had the room numbers at the bottom left and to the right of the numbers they had the braille. I know these signs were put in within the last two years.

Keith Outten
09-27-2008, 8:59 AM
I don't have my Code of Federal Regulations (COFR) handy right now but I don't recall any requirement concerning where braille is placed on a sign. I prefer to put braille on the bottom of the signs I design but we have signs everywhere at CNU that have braille in just about every configuration you can imagine.

The truth is that the COFR is a very simple document where ADA signs are concerned. There isn't much to read or much in the way of instructions. Signs for telephones are more tricky than anything, door signs are very easy to fabricate and install without violating the COFR.

I install signs in accordance with the codes and specifications. If a customer wants me to violate the code or project specs they have to put it in writing instructing me to do so and I will mount them to the floor if that is what they want. The customer is responsible for their directives and it gets me off the hook. Note that a project Inspector doesn't have the authority to make these kinds of decisions, he can accept or reject a particular situation and that is all. Tell him to reject the signs in writing which will force the customers engineering group to provide a solution.

Remember, if you have met the code requirements installing signs and the customer directs you to change them you are within your rights to demand payment for your labor to make the changes.
.

Joe Pelonio
10-20-2008, 2:17 PM
Final (hopefully) update!

The inspector signed off on the installation, at long last, and now they want the big box of backers installed on the inside of the glass for all those signs installed on windows. Since school is in session now we'll have to do it in the evening/night.