This old house

[Christopher Pine]

:eek: Was watching a rerun from last year (2007). Thire was a guy on there doing the base trim in the kichen and he was scribing to the floor. I noticed right off that his hand was missing a good protion of his thumb. Well when he went to trim the peace of trim to the scrib mark he did it free hand on the table a tabesaw. Did any of you seethis one? Is it reasonable to say this was a very bad idea and not very safe? Perhaps attests to why he lost his thumb?

[Bob Moyer]

Your post reminded me of an incident a few years ago when I put in a patio using pavers.

I went to the yard where I bought the pavers to rent a wet saw; the indivdual who I needed to see to pick up the saw, started to demonstrate to me how it works; I noticed immediately that he was missing fingers on both hands; I guess he has often been asked about the missing fingers and he responded that he did not lose them in operating this type of saw.

[Peter Quinn]

I sure did see that episode and I was thinking the same thing. Dod you notice the inside miter was opened too when NAhm said, 'Nice job, just beautiful".

I guess that free hand scribe on the table saw is more prevelant amoung field carpenters than you might think. I have a buddy that does it all the time on his little hitachi portable TS. He tried it once on my PM 66, didn't cut anything off but he took a sticker to the gut he wont soon forget. I remember he shut the saw off and said he thought he'd been kicked by a mule.

I have used a tile saw (wet saw) freehand, often works better than the fence, not as dangerous as a TS, still don't want to touch the blade.

[Karl Brogger]

I've cut scribes freehand on a tablesaw. It works but I still preffer using a circular saw. Nothing is free of danger, we deal with sharp spinning tools, its part of the gig.

You guys really need to stop worshipping Norm. Either on This Old House, or on New Yankee Workshop. They do some cool stuff, and its a great place to get ideas for pieces but everytime they show something up close I chuckle.

Renovations on this old house really crack me up. Some of those projects they should just run to the petrol station, bring back a couple gallons of diesel and some matches. I remember one series of episodes that they had the entire house almost gutted. It was a shell. At that point the expensive stuff still needs to be done, might as well start over and get exactly what you want. A basement you can stand up in, and one that doesn't get wet is a great place to start.

I know. "But then its not old, or historic, or whatever". Take pictures, save some mouldings, go talk to an architect, and build it identical if you want, but things like floors that don't squeak, walls and windows with incredible R ratings, in-floor heat, all things that make well thought out modern construction so nice.

[Neal Clayton]

yeah but it's just not the same ;).

i'm a bit biased, from growing up in new orleans and living in old houses all my life, but there are so many things that you just can't buy anymore, at least not within a reasonable budget. iron/brass hand made fences, stair rails. hand carved wood trim, 2" thick marble, clear 15-20 foot long heart pine floors, slate/clay tile roofs on 2" hardwood decking, etc. not to mention the fact that alot of those old houses are framed with better lumber than people use for furniture these days. that's not stuff you go buy at teh BORG and throw down in a weekend project.

i agree that gutting an old house and trying to make it new is quite silly. on the other hand it takes a lot of patience to properly restore one, so it's not for everyone.

put it this way, my current house has an assortment of hand made brass arches and a hand made iron/brass stair railing circa 1908. when i bought the house it needed 50-75k worth of work, which i'm about halfway done with. i had an uncle that did custom iron work back in new orleans, when he died my aunt showed me all of his his old invoices, and the last stair rail he did for a high end house carried a pricetag of $28,500. so if i've got twice that much ornamental iron and brass in my current house, the 50-75k renovation puts me about even, and i've still got the marble and heart pine left, so i'm ahead of the game in my eyes.

plus, i like the creaky floors, i joke with people that when i'm old and blind i'll still be able to shoot any would be burglars from my bedroom by counting the creaks and squeaks as they walk up the stairs ;).

[Joe Jensen]

I've cut scribes freehand on a tablesaw. It works but I still preffer using a circular saw. Nothing is free of danger, we deal with sharp spinning tools, its part of the gig.

You guys really need to stop worshipping Norm. Either on This Old House, or on New Yankee Workshop. They do some cool stuff, and its a great place to get ideas for pieces but everytime they show something up close I chuckle.

Renovations on this old house really crack me up. Some of those projects they should just run to the petrol station, bring back a couple gallons of diesel and some matches. I remember one series of episodes that they had the entire house almost gutted. It was a shell. At that point the expensive stuff still needs to be done, might as well start over and get exactly what you want. A basement you can stand up in, and one that doesn't get wet is a great place to start.

I know. "But then its not old, or historic, or whatever". Take pictures, save some mouldings, go talk to an architect, and build it identical if you want, but things like floors that don't squeak, walls and windows with incredible R ratings, in-floor heat, all things that make well thought out modern construction so nice.

You are sooooo right. At least over hte past 20 years Norm has backed off on the nail gun and he now uses glue and clamps. I remember a very early night stand that he built out of a 16-20" wide piece of cherry. He determined the width of the table based on the width of the board, saying he wanted a wider table but he couldn't find wider lumber :eek: He then proceeded to nail it all the way around the perimeter.

Norm penchant for nailers drove a whole generation of wood workers to buy nailers. I personally never use nails, and only screws when I want something to be removable later.

[Lee Schierer]

:eek: Was watching a rerun from last year (2007). Thire was a guy on there doing the base trim in the kichen and he was scribing to the floor. I noticed right off that his hand was missing a good protion of his thumb. Well when he went to trim the peace of trim to the scrib mark he did it free hand on the table a tabesaw. Did any of you seethis one? Is it reasonable to say this was a very bad idea and not very safe? Perhaps attests to why he lost his thumb?I didn't see the episode, but I've seen carpenters free hand cut, bit cross cuts and rips with table saws on job sites. It scares me. Their only saving grace is the fact that most contractor saws don't have a lot of horsepower so it is easier to stop kick backs with your hands and stall the saw than it is with a cabinet type of saw. I've also seen them lower pieces of wood onto moving blades to make plunge cuts, which is also extremely dnagerous.

No free hand cuts or plunge cuts onto moving blades are ever allowed in my shop on my saw!

Work safe.

P.S. With the money they spend on remodeling they could easily build 2-3 houses from scratch like normal people live in.

[Charles P. Wright]

Renovations on this old house really crack me up. Some of those projects they should just run to the petrol station, bring back a couple gallons of diesel and some matches. I remember one series of episodes that they had the entire house almost gutted. It was a shell. At that point the expensive stuff still needs to be done, might as well start over and get exactly what you want. A basement you can stand up in, and one that doesn't get wet is a great place to start.
At least in some parts of the country, it is going to be much easier to get permits to renovate the inside of a house, or even add an addition than to knock it down and start over.

[Lee DeRaud]

At least in some parts of the country, it is going to be much easier to get permits to renovate the inside of a house, or even add an addition than to knock it down and start over.They had that issue on TOH with their Malibu beach-house project in the '90s. They ended up leaving only two exterior walls of the original house standing and building a new house out from that corner. When asked about it, the architect said that keeping those original walls saved a couple of years in the permit process.

[Randal Stevenson]

Your post reminded me of an incident a few years ago when I put in a patio using pavers.

I went to the yard where I bought the pavers to rent a wet saw; the indivdual who I needed to see to pick up the saw, started to demonstrate to me how it works; I noticed immediately that he was missing fingers on both hands; I guess he has often been asked about the missing fingers and he responded that he did not lose them in operating this type of saw.

I certainly would have asked WHAT TYPE of saw did he lose them on?

[Robert Conner]

It always amazes me what some "Professionals" do. I guess I was lucky that my training in woodworking led me to Teaching where I had to assume the responsibilities of Student Safety. The thought of potential accidents to others as well as myself has always been present when I work with wood.
I will never forget the Board of Education Carpenter who asked to use the Table Saw in my shop. A student called it to my attention that this "Pro" was using his hand to shield his eyes while he pushed the wood thru with his other hand. This was after he removed the guard from the saw. Needless to say I hit the shop power switch (neat device) and I asked him to leave the shop. I suppose I should have checked him out first. It did turn into a Great Lesson.
Robert

[Peter Quinn]

Renovations on this old house really crack me up. Some of those projects they should just run to the petrol station, bring back a couple gallons of diesel and some matches. I remember one series of episodes that they had the entire house almost gutted. It was a shell. At that point the expensive stuff still needs to be done, might as well start over and get exactly what you want. A basement you can stand up in, and one that doesn't get wet is a great place to start.

I know. "But then its not old, or historic, or whatever". Take pictures, save some mouldings, go talk to an architect, and build it identical if you want, but things like floors that don't squeak, walls and windows with incredible R ratings, in-floor heat, all things that make well thought out modern construction so nice.


Karl, you must not have grown up on the East coast? Perhaps some where in the middle where an old home is around 60 years old, a really old home 100 and a very old home made of sod? The replacement value on some of those TOH projects is double to tripple the cost of new construction should you actually be able to to source some of the old materials. Restoration quality hardware and millwork is insane, mostly custom, and you just can't get the quality of wood generally available way back then. And on many of the years they take on houses in historic districts where you have a pack of cackling old bitties with no better way to spend their golden years then to make life rough for some well financed home owner and his contractor. They call themselves historic commissions, I call them Satin. Sometimes remodeling a shell job, even if you have to jack it up and rebuild the footings or dig a new cellar, is easier and cheaper here than bringing in a bulldozer, cause you'll never get permits to rebuild again. Plus that shell would be a lot more material in our already over crowded land fills, and that gets expensive too.

Some of their projects get a bit out there, and a few seasons I just skip, but by and large I think the TOH crew are quality contractors doing interesting work on special properties worth the investment. They are unpretensious tradesmen who happen to be on TV. Norm is just a guy with a hammer. I don't see why any goofball would want to worship him, but I also don't understand why most professional cabinetmakers I meet seem to want to bash him either.

My old house is insured for 'Replacement Cost', which is nearly double what it would cost to put some vinly clad plywood filled finger jointed box with the asthectic appeal of an over grown horse trailer in its place. My carrying beam, for instance, is two 35' 8X10 black locust spliced in the coolest manner at only one point in the middle. Try specing that at your local yard! Archetecturally correct replacement windows? Ones that look good, are $2800 per whole uninstalled. Crappy plastic andersons are around $750. They seal tighter but I never want to look at em.

I calculated $50,000 worth of basic moldings in my small basic house at todays cost. You think your average pre-fab crap box has a $50,000 trim package installed these days? For me, even through all the work i've done vrs new construction, this place is heaven. I'll take a few squeaks in my 18' runs of verticle grain hard pine over a nice tight picture of wood glued to chip board or some junk strip flooring where 4' is considered a long piece any day.

Oh, and I'm going to email NAHM, and he'd gonna come out their and show you how to use that nail gun too!:D:D:D

[Neal Clayton]

Karl, you must not have grown up on the East coast? Perhaps some where in the middle where an old home is around 60 years old, a really old home 100 and a very old home made of sod? The replacement value on some of those TOH projects is double to tripple the cost of new construction should you actually be able to to source some of the old materials. Restoration quality hardware and millwork is insane, mostly custom, and you just can't get the quality of wood generally available way back then. And on many of the years they take on houses in historic districts where you have a pack of cackling old bitties with no better way to spend their golden years then to make life rough for some well financed home owner and his contractor. They call themselves historic commissions, I call them Satin. Sometimes remodeling a shell job, even if you have to jack it up and rebuild the footings or dig a new cellar, is easier and cheaper here than bringing in a bulldozer, cause you'll never get permits to rebuild again. Plus that shell would be a lot more material in our already over crowded land fills, and that gets expensive too.

Some of their projects get a bit out there, and a few seasons I just skip, but by and large I think the TOH crew are quality contractors doing interesting work on special properties worth the investment. They are unpretensious tradesmen who happen to be on TV. Norm is just a guy with a hammer. I don't see why any goofball would want to worship him, but I also don't understand why most professional cabinetmakers I meet seem to want to bash him either.

My old house is insured for 'Replacement Cost', which is nearly double what it would cost to put some vinly clad plywood filled finger jointed box with the asthectic appeal of an over grown horse trailer in its place. My carrying beam, for instance, is two 35' 8X10 black locust spliced in the coolest manner at only one point in the middle. Try specing that at your local yard! Archetecturally correct replacement windows? Ones that look good, are $2800 per whole uninstalled. Crappy plastic andersons are around $750. They seal tighter but I never want to look at em.

I calculated $50,000 worth of basic moldings in my small basic house at todays cost. You think your average pre-fab crap box has a $50,000 trim package installed these days? For me, even through all the work i've done vrs new construction, this place is heaven. I'll take a few squeaks in my 18' runs of verticle grain hard pine over a nice tight picture of wood glued to chip board or some junk strip flooring where 4' is considered a long piece any day.

Oh, and I'm going to email NAHM, and he'd gonna come out their and show you how to use that nail gun too!:D:D:D

not only all that, which is true, but i'd gladly take bets on the fact that in another 100 years nothing built between the 1960s and 2000 will be still standing and inhabitable, whereas quite a bit of stuff built between 1800 and 1930 still will be.

[Jim Becker]

The trim carpenter that did the work in our addition did a whole bunch of scribing with...the 12" SCMS...a nibble job...needless to say, I left the room, but am certainly enjoying the great results. On the trim I've been doing to match in the great room, I did my scribing the old fashioned way...with a coping saw.

[glenn bradley]

This has been discussed before. At least two folks felt freehand crosscutting on the table saw was safe. I totally disagree. JMHO.

[Karl Brogger]

Karl, you must not have grown up on the East coast? Perhaps some where in the middle where an old home is around 60 years old, a really old home 100 and a very old home made of sod?


LOL. No I grew up in a XXXXX box 1903 farmhouse, I'm now 27. I hate drafts and squeaky floors. There is truth to the saying "They don't build em' like they used to" BUT, its truth that works both ways. People don't build quality homes. 90% of the homes slammed together nowdays in developments are going to be slums in 30 years. Very few can afford to build houses properly, or they think they need 3500 square feet, but don't want to pay over $400k for it. Thats where crap products like TGI's, 2-1/4" base and casing, that cardboard like crap that they're sheating houses with, (I can't think of the name). All so you can get more square footage to clean and heat. I can honestly say that I've only worked on one new house that impressed me by what was put into it.

This was a big one, but the cost was over $500/sq ft.

Master Bedroom
http://www.rcbmi.com/images/case_studies/43_Brekken/a_h_a_0012w_Lg.jpg

Kitchen
http://www.rcbmi.com/images/case_studies/43_Brekken/a_h_a_0002w_Lg.jpg

Master Bath
http://www.rcbmi.com/images/case_studies/43_Brekken/a_h_a_0006w_Lg.jpg

Great room looking into kitchen and game room
http://www.rcbmi.com/images/case_studies/43_Brekken/a_h_a_0005w_Lg.jpg

Pantry
http://www.rcbmi.com/images/case_studies/43_Brekken/a_h_a_0007w_Lg.jpg

I was lucky enough to not have any work at my own shop and had to get a job and went to work for this company for a bit. I got to build about 3/4 of the cabinets in this house, which I'm quite proud of even if they weren't done under my own company name.

The house isn't necessarily my style, but everything was done very well, and not over the top. I think that the building cost is what it actually takes to build a quality home. Which is way out of most of our price ranges. You want to walk around on cold floors and spend $5k a year to heat your home have at it. I'm never home anyway.

[Peter Quinn]

You want to walk around on cold floors and spend $5k a year to heat your home have at it. I'm never home anyway.

That house is a beauty...nice cabinets!

And hey, I only spent $4300 this year. Wife says there shouldn't be icicles on the inside of the windows, I tell her to put on another sweater!:D

[Vince Shriver]

Karl, That's a beautiful home. Question: Are those counter tops in the pantry Doug Fir?

[Karl Brogger]

Karl, That's a beautiful home. Question: Are those counter tops in the pantry Doug Fir?

Sounds right but I don't remember. The were made from reclaimed lumber.

[Paul Girouard]

Karl, That's a beautiful home. Question: Are those counter tops in the pantry Doug Fir?



They look like Yellow Pine to me.

As far as free hand cutting , it can be done safely under the right conditions , right saw (small tablesaw) , "right" stock , (scribe strips are generally small-ish straight stock), TOH fills a need, not every house needs to "meet the bulldozer".

You home hobby guys need to "stay at home" if thats going to freak you out. :rolleyes:

YMMV , Use no hooks , Void where prohibited by law, etc , etc.

[Matthew Voss]

As far as free hand cutting , it can be done safely under the right conditions...

Agreed. I leave the guard on, cut close to the line and finish with a belt sander.

[Christopher Pine]

They look like Yellow Pine to me.

As far as free hand cutting , it can be done safely under the right conditions , right saw (small tablesaw) , "right" stock , (scribe strips are generally small-ish straight stock), TOH fills a need, not every house needs to "meet the bulldozer".

You home hobby guys need to "stay at home" if thats going to freak you out. :rolleyes:

YMMV , Use no hooks , Void where prohibited by law, etc , etc.

Just asking! Not freaked out... I have all my apendages... so far anyways :)
The point of teh paower of the saw is a good one... He did have a small portable unit. Its all good to me I am not scribing trim.

[Paul Girouard]

Just asking! Not freaked out... I have all my apendages... so far anyways :)


The point of teh paower of the saw is a good one... He did have a small portable unit. Its all good to me I am not scribing trim.



It "read" like freaking out as did /do some of the replies:rolleyes:

I've got all mine (appendage's) as well even after all these years:cool: The tool I figure will get me one day is the jig saw I do a lot of "odd" cutting with that tool. But as of today I've had a total of 4 stitches in my life, skilsaw "kick back" when I was a 19 Y/O , back when I "thought" I knew every thing

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dirtbox/pics/muttley.gif

I hope his scribing and saw skills where / are better than your spell / typing skills:D