Arrgh - Cant decide whether to sell a LN #4 or not

[Doug Shepard]

I've come close to posting an ad for a Bronze LN #4 several times but each time I find myself holding back. I picked up this Ron Brese small smoother recently http://www.breseplane.com/Small_Smoothers.html and also have a LN 4-1/2. Ron's plane has also completely spoiled me and I'm giving some thought to getting one of his full size smoother kits once they're available. I keep thinking that the #4 isn't going to end up getting used much between the Brese and LN 4-1/2, but it's such a nice plane it's hard to think about parting with it. Mine has the original chipbreaker so if I decide to keep I should probably end up buying the new type too. At one time I had given thought to getting the HAF for it, but that seems redundant now when I've got the Brese with 55 degs. In fact the only reason I can think of to keep it is to have one with a lower angle than the Brese, but that puts me at the same angle as the 4-1/2 just in a slightly smaller plane. Can anyone think of a good reason why I should keep this? Would you sell it if you had these other two?

[Brian Kent]

One good reason for keeping it is because sometimes one plane works better than another for no particular reason. You have some great - no, some fantastic - planes there. Congratulations.

The only logic I could see for selling the No. 4 is to buy another plane that fills a gap in your needs, or because you want to buy a half tank of gas.

[Joel Goodman]

Is the Brese comfortable in the hand? How is the "grip" ? How limiting is the small size and narrow blade? If you want to throw the LN away send it in my direction. Seriously I would love to hear a mini review of the Brese.

[Jim Koepke]

Until recently my shop had 3 No. 4 size planes. The one that was a family heirloom was taken to one of my brothers who has been keeping some of the other family items. So now, there are two No. 4s, a No. 3 and No. 4-1/2. Actually, there are also a couple of No. 4s that are in pieces waiting to be rehabbed.

They all find their uses. For the No. 4s, one is set to take a very thin cut, the other is set more to the fat cut side. The 3 and 4-1/2 are set towards the middle.

So, it depends on you. If you want to minimize the quantity of tools in your shop, then sell. If you have the space to keep them all, then you have a back up for when you are in the middle of something and do not want to stop and sharpen a blade. Then again, you can save it for the day you need to sell.

jim

[Doug Shepard]

.... Seriously I would love to hear a mini review of the Brese.

Jameel Abraham just posted a review of his and his photo skills (or camera) are way better than mine. He did his from a kit with a bit of modification but nothing different in the workings.


...
They all find their uses. For the No. 4s, one is set to take a very thin cut, the other is set more to the fat cut side. The 3 and 4-1/2 are set towards the middle.
...


There's another reason I hadn't stopped to consider. Maybe I'll delay the decision a bit longer, or maybe even do some side-by-side comparisons with all 3 set for various shavings. Space is always a premium but not so much that one plane is a problem. It's just that I've got a serious packrat tendency and have been trying to exercise more Use-It-Or-Lose-It thinking the last few years.

[Jameel Abraham]

What Jim said. I say keep it for a while. You might find yourself using it for things you're not thinking of. Our Brese planes are the smoothers for the final touch or tricky woods. I guarantee you'll find yourself in the position of wanting to do some smoothing or general work with a #4 size that you don't want to "waste" your Brese plane on. What I mean is this. Say you're flushing up the rail and stile on a door frame. Your #4 is set for a light cut (as it should be), so you grab it to do the flushing up. But it leaves some slight tearout. Now pick up your Brese smoother and take care of the tearout and polish the rest of the door while your at it. So you've done the "grunt" work (which at this stage of furniture making requires the fine work of a fine tool like the L-N) with your L-N and gotten more mileage out of the iron on your Brese plane, which is set for leaving a real polish on the wood. The L-N as a general use smoother, and the Brese as a preparation for finishing--not really removing material, per se. That's how I would use it.

About the 4-1/2. I don't have one, so hard for me to say. It depends on how you use it I guess. For me, using an infill smoother for anything but fine smoothing seems like a waste of time and honing. Then again, if I had those two Lie-Nielsens in my tool arsenal, and I didn't need the money for food or beer, I'd definitely keep both. You could always do a high angle frog as you say, or back bevels for different purposes. A 4-1/2, or even a 4 is a much larger plane than the small Brese.

[Joel Goodman]

Not to hijack the thread but I do have a question about the Brese small smoother. Is the standard configuration comfortable? Jameel's "highback" version looks comfortable but Doug how is the regular version in the hand? Do you think Jameel's version would be more comfortable? Anyone else with the Brese want to chime in. And 50 degrees vs 55? Thanks!

[Doug Shepard]

Thanks Jameel.

Joel, I suspect the high rounded heel on Jameel's might feel a little better in the palm but the standard one is plenty comfy too. It does take a bit of adjustment getting used to a plane that heavy without a handle on it. The darn thing glides so effortlessly through wood I keep having scary thoughts of sending it sailing off the bench without something to hang onto. The lack of a handle certainly isn't an issue in pushing it through shavings though.

[Jameel Abraham]

Joel,

I haven't tried a standard Brese small smoother, just the one I built. I have used planes though that were very similar to Ron's standard small configuration, and I didn't have any comfort issues. My Brese plane is comfortable. However, if you're new to infill planes (as I was when I made the kit), there is a learning curve, strange as it may sound, in getting to know how to hold the plane. First of all, the plane, being an almost solid chunk of brass and ebony, is very heavy for its size, it's very dense. So when I began using the plane I actually was gripping and pushing down too firmly. My hand started to ache. I typically use old Stanley Bailey types and my Lie-Nielsen 164 for smoothing. In fact the Brese plane is about the same weight as the 164, but physically much smaller. So I'm used to having to push more with these planes to get the cut I need. And herein lies the real beauty of the Brese plane. The density of the plane works for you. I lightened my grip, just cradling the plane in my hand--not squeezing--and just barely pushing down--and I actually got better results. With the lighter grip I was getting feedback from the wood that I was missing with the tighter grip. The cramping went away, and a whole new planing experience was opened up. It was like the first time I really honed up grandpa's old #4 Handyman and got those first real shavings. That was a great feeling.

[Ron Brese]

Doug,

Like Jameel I advocate a two plane approach. I set my L-N #4 just a tad heavier than a final pass smoother and knock down the high spots and then finish off with an infill. This speeds the process and spreads the work load across two tools which means that even when I have a lot of surfacing to do I can probably get it done without stopping to hone an iron.

Ron Brese

[Johnny Kleso]

I have a ton of planes and sell some off from my collecton now and then, I am always sad that I thought I needed some extra cash or I had many more planes than I really need... If I had brand new planes like your I say to keep it till you know for sure you have no use for it..

I have a Clifton No.4 as well as 4-5 other No4 and often think thats a high $$ plane and I can do with out it..
Thing is if I sell it I may buy a LN or Trade Ron some of my time making parts for one of his planes :)

I say just keep it..
He how dies with the most toys wins :)

[Doug Shepard]

OK - you folks have me swayed. I'm keeping the #4 and will get the chipbreaker update ordered. What's the opinion on whether I should also get the HAF? I tend to keep using harder/figured woods which would suggest the HAF, but if I'm primarily going to set the plane for a bit stiffer shaving maybe I shouldn't switch due to planing effort??

[Charles Shenk]

OK - you folks have me swayed. I'm keeping the #4 and will get the chipbreaker update ordered. What's the opinion on whether I should also get the HAF? I tend to keep using harder/figured woods which would suggest the HAF, but if I'm primarily going to set the plane for a bit stiffer shaving maybe I shouldn't switch due to planing effort??


Do you need the frog? Can't you just change the bevel? I too have the bronze LN #4 (newer one).

[Doug Shepard]

As far as I know, the only option with a bevel down plane is the angle of the frog.

[Mike Cutler]

As far as I know, the only option with a bevel down plane is the angle of the frog.

The angle of the frog is the "fundamental" way the angle is established, but not the only way. Back beveling the blade will yield an effective higher angle presented to a surface. A 10 degree back bevel is an effective 55 degree angle to the surface. You can easily increase a back bevel angle, but decreasing it takes a little more work.
Bob Smalser has also posted a thread on changing the angle of the blade to the surface by shimming the frog area, thus leaving the blade alone. I'd look at that thread closely for some ideas.

Another vote here for keeping the LN. Reason being.You just never know.....

[Johnny Kleso]

Doug,
You can Back Bevel the blade 5*-10* with a micro bevel and change the angle if needed on a spare blade or only blade and regrind it back..

You can also use a card scraper to fix your tear out...

[Doug Shepard]

Well I did end up keeping this and ordered the newer style chipbreaker and HAF for it. The frog was on BO for a while and showed up right before I got busy on a doghouse build so I'm only just now getting around to putting the upgrades on. One thing I've run into that I don't think was happening with the lower frog and old CB, or at least not as much - the shavings are tending to collect more down around the base of the lever cap. Not jamming in the mouth opening, but not curling up and out either. Experiments so far have been with mahogany and jatoba with various mouth opening settings and cut thicknesses with not much change. The new CB is about 1/16 or a little less back from the blade edge. It's cutting well with no tearout but I just have to stop and clear the shavings rather often. Maybe it's just the wood I've tried so far? But the HAF docs mentioned that if used with the old stylr CB that jammming in the mouth could occur, and recommended upgrading to the new CB but that some light filing on the mouth opening could help. So I'm wondering if this is something that might need to be done due to the HAF even though I'm using the new CB ??

[Jamie Cowan]

I'd like to go on record as saying I'd like first crack at that LN#4. Just saying.

[Tristan Raymond]

Give them a call or send them an e-mail. Their customer service is excellent.

[Mike Cutler]

Doug

I don't think that I'd personally start filing the mouth of the plane. I think I'd definitely call LN first. They do have excellent customer service, I know this from experience with them on the phone. You'll get someone on the phone that knows exactly what you have in your hand.

I don't know how much clogging you're getting, but I have LN #'s 4,4 1/2,5,6 and 7 planes, all are standard pitched. If I have them set to take fine shavings, in dense woods, they tend to get a "ball" of waste material in the same area yours is collecting shavings. For me I just flick my wrist clockwise and the material clears. No jamming is occurring though.

If the mouth isn't jamming up, I'd leave it alone. If the mouth is jamming up, I'd contact LN first.

[Eddie Darby]

Try a little parafin wax on the leading lip of the CB.

Filing is a oneway trip, so make sure that you want to go there.

I have a LN 4 1/2 with the HAF 50 degrees, and I figure that with 2 blades, one with a back bevel of 5 degrees, one with only the 'ruler trick', I can get 45, 50 or 55 degrees from the plane with different set-up combinations.