It's gonna be cold this winter!

[Gordon Harner]

just received my summer heating fuel oil delivery today. I was charged $4.53 per gallon!!! I can't understand why fuel oil for heating should be about the same price as diesel fuel. Diesel fuel has use tax and the feds and the state collect their pound of flesh. At these prices I'll need a second job. I am too old to do the wood burning thing again. Does anybody remember the cost comparison factors for BTU? Is it time to get hooked up to the big bad gas company?

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Gordon...I feel your pain.

Unfortunately, burning wood in an old fashion fireplace is very inefficient. It's also a big polluter and a poor use of a limited natural resource. If you have to haul it home and chop it, it's also a potential heart attack.

I also anticipate that natural gas will go up like oil even though natural gas is a domestic commodity. It's all about greed, monopolization or deregulation. Pick one.

-Jeff :)

[Jim Becker]

Natural gas prices are escalating, too, Gordon. I just got a notice to that effect from our supplier...who also happens to be the electrical supplier for this area.

I'm curious if you happened to call around for pricing before ordering your "summer" delivery?

[Randy Cohen]

i paid 4.50/gal for off road diesel a few days ago and i had to go get it. 4.53 for it delivered ain't too bad these days. shouldn't be too long before electricity rates go way up. at this point they are kind of lagging.

[Craig Summers]

I thought this was coming

Last year I hooked up a woodburning insert @75% efficiency, and bought split green oak firewood delivered @ $135/cord. I only had to stack it. I calculated that 5 cured cords would be about the same as 1,000 gallons fuel oil burned at 85% efficiency, but alot less green$.

Next year i have my eye on some cheaper sources of firewood, although i might need to get a trailer .... :)

[Gordon Harner]

I just thought that I'd repond to some of the questions/comments. Jim I'm on a budget plan and buy from a fellow volunteer fighter who I've known about all of my life. I used to have a 1000 gal underground tank and bought during the low demand period but underground tanks and the EPA... According to my supplier the speculators are driving the prices. He said he used to be pretty good at buying and using long term contracts but now he can't follow what is going on. Early on after I bought the house I had an airtight stove and heated with wood but that was 30 years ago I haven't the stamina for the work.

I've been wondering about the cost per BTU of natural gas v. oil. I have seen the formula but don't remember it. I know that this is probably paranoid but I'm partial to oil for safety reasons, I've seen several buildings blown to splinters where a gas leak in the street allowed the gas to follow the service into the building where it exploded. But I also think that current technology has more options for fuel for appliances that currently burn natural gas. Anybody remember coal gas? Just one example.

[Lee Schierer]

Here's an interesting link I found regarding the cost of heating with wood compared to other sources. I don't know if the firgures presented are correct, but it makes interesting reading. Wood heat comparisons (http://cecalaveras.ucdavis.edu/heat.htm)

It also doesn't give you the BTU ratings for hardwood other than White Oak.

I heat and will soon cool my house with a geothermal heat pump using well water. I use about 60-70% of the power needed to heat with a conventional heat pump and about 35% of that needed to heat with resistance electrical heating. My current utility bill is $139.00 per month that is heat, lights, hot water and cooking. I heat about 22-2400 sqft. My new unit which arrives tomorrow is supposed to be more efficient than the unit I have been using for 25 years and it will give us cooling as well. We'll see what cooling costs add on.

[Jim Becker]

FYI, Diesel around here is closer to five bucks. I did pay $4.67 in NJ a couple weeks ago when I filled my cans for the tractor...and that was $.20 less than here in PA on the same day. So $4.53 for #2 doesn't surprise me!

[Craig Summers]

Table 3 of this Virginia Extension heating comparison (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forestry/420-003/420-003.pdf) gives the base value BTU of various heating fuels
Oil Gallon = 141K BTU
NG Therm = 100K BTU
Oak Cord = 20,450K BTU
remember that these are the base values, it is degraded/improved according to effiency factors of your heating appliance.

Looking at a GasBuddy.com website VirginiaGasPrices (http://www.virginiagasprices.com/), the following spot prices (wholesale) are noted today:
NG per Million BTU (http://www.virginiagasprices.com/natgas_chart.aspx): $12.805
Home Heating Oil (http://www.virginiagasprices.com/homeoil_chart.aspx) is $ 3.76 per gallon
there are about 7.1 gallons heating oil / million BTU
so 7.1 x $3.76 = $ 26.70 per million BTU
Therefore oil is about twice as expensive per raw BTU than NG
This is a wholesale comparison, retail may vary as others have noted.

Per the same site (http://www.virginiagasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D), the best diesel price in VA is 4.47 / gallon in Opal, VA for now ....

Now New Jersey (http://www.newjerseygasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D)has 4.51 gallon diesel in Carneys Point
and PA (http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D) has 4.64 in Elizabethville

Craig

[Gordon Harner]

Thanks Craig. That's just the info I need. Even if gas goes up a lot it will still be a better deal.

[glenn bradley]

Just got the notice that my water is going up too. Weeee.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I am burning wood in my 5" wide 250 year old monstrous stone fireplace.

Once that sucker is hot it heats the whole house well into the next day because the stone heat sink is tremendous.

[Dennis Peacock]

All the reason why we switched over to heating via soapstone woodstove about 3 years ago. Monthly natural gas bill never exceeds $50 a month now. :)

[Bill Cunningham]

I had until now been using a oil fired water heater, feeding a 55kbtu air handler heating a 1200 sf older home, and my shop 1180sf is on Gas. My shop heats for $450 a year, and my home cost me $2600 this year. Next year I estimated $3600 to $4000.. I bit the bullet, and bought a 96afue gas furnace, matched with a 19 sear aircondx/9 heat pump, and a tankless water heater that will deliver 5gph at 140degF .. I 'should' see a significant drop in my home heating costs. At todays oil prices, this system will pay for itself in no time, and increase the resale value of my home (we plan to sell and retire in a few years) The nice thing is the Ontario Gov. and the Canadian Feds, and the system manuf. give be a total of about 4k in grants and rebates..

[Phil Thien]

I heat and will soon cool my house with a geothermal heat pump using well water.

I don't have a well but I have questions nonetheless.

How does that work? Does it pump the water out of the well, transfer the heat, and then pump the water back into the well?

Do this require a fairly high-volume well? Does this effect the water supply?

What temp. do you set your thermostat in the winter? And I imagine this is a forced-air system seeing as you're adding cooling now?

What if everyone in the planet used a geothermal system? Would we have to go deeper into the earth to make it work? That is, would we collectively warm the crust of the earth in the summer and cool it further in the winter? Especially in densely populated areas?

[Lee Schierer]

I don't have a well but I have questions nonetheless.

How does that work? Does it pump the water out of the well, transfer the heat, and then pump the water back into the well?

Do this require a fairly high-volume well? Does this effect the water supply?

What temp. do you set your thermostat in the winter? And I imagine this is a forced-air system seeing as you're adding cooling now?

What if everyone in the planet used a geothermal system? Would we have to go deeper into the earth to make it work? That is, would we collectively warm the crust of the earth in the summer and cool it further in the winter? Especially in densely populated areas?

I have two wells separated by about 100 feet. I pump water out of one well, extract the heat in the winter and put it back into the second well. It uses about 8-10 gpm when running. It has no effect on the water table since the water is returned to the ground. We keep our house at 68 degrees 24/7 in the winter, we're just figuring out the comfort level for the A/C. If everyone on the planet used geothermal, oil prices would be significantly lower. I cannot speculate on what would happen to ground tempertures in densly populated areas.

[Randy Cohen]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/14/AR2008061400896.html


thats quite a large rate increase in one shot. Has this occured in other areas? Dominion is not my provider (APCO (division of AEP) here with no big rate increase yet).

[Butch Edwards]

Gordon...I feel your pain.

Unfortunately, burning wood in an old fashion fireplace is very inefficient. It's also a big polluter and a poor use of a limited natural resource.
-Jeff :)

compared to what California wild fires are doing, the pollution point is very moot... and burning woodstoves provide more than heat, they can also cook food if/when the electricity goes out...at least I can on mine.
as for the poor use, I don't agree....dead wood should be burnt,if not used for lumber, which most isn't.

[John Keeton]

On geothermal, I wouldn't even consider any other system. We have had our current system for 4 years, and the home before this one for 13 years. We heat/cool about 4100 sq ft and are total electric. Our average bill is $140. Electricity rates are tied to solid energy (coal) in this area, and it fluctuates with oil. So, I am sure it will go up.

My theory is that we will always have electricity produced in some manner. The entire country runs on it, and we will find a way to produce it. Not to sure about other systems??

By the way, the geothermal (at least the ones I have had and others I am familiar with) are closed systems. A continuous loop is run down in the wells, in our case 3 at 200' deep, and a waterbased coolant runs in the loops. It is more efficient if the wells are wet. Ours aren't, but we have very comfortable heat/cooling. Winter setting at 68, summer at 77.