Replacing Stair treads

[Dustin Nuckolls]

I am planning to take carpet off of and replace my stair treads. They are low grade pine, and we would like to go with oak. The top two stairs are closed on both sides and the rest are open on both sides. I would like to make my own treads out of solid lumber and rout the edges to get the bullnose look. Everyone seems to push returns to hide the end grain. Is there a problem with having exposed end grain? I will not be staining the treads, only using a clear floor poly. I need some help or suggestions for getting nice looking oak treads on a teacher's budget. One local hardwood dealer had suggested 3/4 oak plywood with oak half-round attached on three sides for returns. Please help!!!

Nuckolls

[Spencer Hochstetler]

As far as returns go, it's comes down to an aesthetic/tradition/labor preference. I went with bullnose endgrain and with proper preparation, it finishes very well. I'll take some detailed pictures Monday or Tuesday and post them here for your reference. I would avoid plywood, though. That just sounds cheesy.

[Dustin Nuckolls]

thanks, looking forward to seing your pics. I agree that the plywood sounds and would look cheesy, I just wanted to hear it from someone else to be sure.

[John Keeton]

Depending on the look you are after, the returns also serve the purpose of extending back past the riser. This gives the tread a certain solid look as though it is wider and goes beneath the riser. You would not have that look without returns. As to 3/4" material, I would think the flexing would be annoying and squeaks would be a guarantee unless your carriages are very close together. Most treads are 4/4" finished, or greater.

As to plywood, I would think the applied bullnose on the front would not withstand constant pressure. The leading edge is usually the first place every foot hits, and an applied molding would soon give out.

[Frank Drew]

Plywood wouldn't work because you might wear through the face veneer before too long.

I think one reason for the returns (also on window sills and aprons, etc.) was because before electric saws the hand saw crosscut left the end grain fairly rough and unsuitable for finish without a lot of prep work.

[Richard Wolf]

As John mentioned above, the returns should extend 1 1/4" back, past the face of the riser. It gives the stairs a finished look. Pick thru the treads at the borg for some good ones and make you own returns. A slightly larger investment in parts now will greatly add to the finished look of you staircase.

Richard

[Brian D Anderson]

I'm not sure about the end grain, but I replaced my treads last year. Actually I didn't replace them, I lopped off the existing noses and put treads on top of them. I then used 1/4" ply for the risers.

This probably doesn't help you much, but here are some pictures:

Before:

http://home.rochester.rr.com/ytsejam/Stairs_B1.jpg

Taking the noses off:
http://home.rochester.rr.com/ytsejam/Stairs_IP.jpg

I used Walnut for the treads and maple ply for the risers.
http://home.rochester.rr.com/ytsejam/Stairs_A4.jpg http://home.rochester.rr.com/ytsejam/Stairs_A3.jpg

-Brian

[Dustin Nuckolls]

Looks good Brian. What type pf material did you put over the existing treads, and how did you keep this from changing you rise and run on the top and bottom steps?

[Dustin Nuckolls]

I had another thought to keep things on the cheap for me, what about 4/4 oak for the treads, bullnose the front edge, and attach half-round to the sides to continue the treads the 1 1/4 inch past the end of the tread as Richard was saying?

Thanks,
Nuckolls

[Spencer Hochstetler]

Keep in mind that the cost of the lumber is the cheap part of this whole endeavor if you value your time at all...


what about 4/4 oak for the treads

Treads that are 1" thick, finished, look good. Do you mean 4/4 rough or finished thickness? To get a 4/4 finished thickness, you need to start with 5/4 and plane it.

[Brian D Anderson]

Looks good Brian. What type pf material did you put over the existing treads, and how did you keep this from changing you rise and run on the top and bottom steps?

That's 3/4" solid walnut on top of the old treads. It did change the rise and run and I worried about it when I was planning . . . but it is really not noticeable at all. I had actually planned on using 1" walnut, but couldn't find a good supply of 5/4 locally.


-Brian

[Dustin Nuckolls]

Do you mean 4/4 rough or finished thickness? To get a 4/4 finished thickness, you need to start with 5/4 and plane it.

I was planing in 4/4 finished. I like the look of the 1" treads that I have seen. I had read somewhere online that there could be a bow or cup issue with usinf a solid plank for the treads. If they are fastened well with nails and adhesive is this still a concern?

[Spencer Hochstetler]

I had read somewhere online that there could be a bow or cup issue with usinf a solid plank for the treads. If they are fastened well with nails and adhesive is this still a concern?

If it is, I'm in in trouble! :p Per Mr. Wolf's recommendation to me in another thread, I'm using trim screws and then plugging the holes. 6 screws per tread and PL400 heavy duty construction adhesive to boot. I'm using about 3/4 10 oz tube per tread. If mine cup a little I don't really care. You'll see more details when I get a chance to post pics.

[Spencer Hochstetler]

A few pictures. It turns out that the only standard return that I have had the opportunity to install thus far, I accidentally ripped the thing off. I was so focused on the mitered risers and how the treads mated with the walls, that I totally forgot about the return. I'll be able to fix it later... Hopefully, you'll get the idea of whether you like exposed endgrain or not.

Here's an overview of a few steps. The first tread in this shot is the one where I cut off the return. All treads are glued, screwed, and plugged. Base and cap for the skirtboard is yet to come...
http://redboston.com/miscfora/dining1.jpg


You can see a yet-to-be-plugged screw hole here:
http://redboston.com/miscfora/dining2.jpg


More detail:
http://redboston.com/miscfora/dining3.jpg


Sand endgrain perfectly or you'll see what looks to be a little burnishing after sealing. The front 3 or 4 inches shows an slightly imperfect sanding job. You can't see it without getting on all fours, though.
http://redboston.com/miscfora/dining4.jpg


Another angle of the same set of steps:
http://redboston.com/miscfora/dining5.jpg


One more set of pictures to come.

[Spencer Hochstetler]

Second set.

An overview shot:
http://redboston.com/miscfora/entry1.jpg


A little closer on the stairs going to 2nd floor:
http://redboston.com/miscfora/entry2.jpg


A mini return. Baseboard will butt up against the riser endgrain. I made the bottom riser 11/16" so it will thickness-match the base.
http://redboston.com/miscfora/entry3.jpg



Detail of the step leading up to the 2nd floor. The dark band on the endgrain is the spalting that is present in the tread. I'm particularly proud of the mitered riser on this one; the same board wraps around... Quarter round or something will close the gap between the riser and the floor and scotia trim will be nailed under the tread noses.
http://redboston.com/miscfora/entry4.jpg



Detail shot showing what the screw hole plugs look like. There are two of them in this picture. I used #8 3" trim head screws from McFeely's driven with an impact driver.
http://redboston.com/miscfora/entry5.jpg


I hope these give you some feeling of which way to go. Half the battle is making up your mind on what you want to do! Good luck!

[Spencer Hochstetler]

Here is a "just before" picture that I just found of the first picture series. If I find a true before picture (with carpet) I'll post it for fun, too.
http://redboston.com/miscfora/2006-10-08_164253.jpg

[Dustin Nuckolls]

WOW!! That looks great! I will not hesitate at all to have the exposed end grain now, it looks beautiful. I think I actually like it better because it shows that the tread is solid oak rather than multiple pieces guled together to form a tread. Your mitered risers look fantastic as well. What did you use to plug the screw holes, are they actual plugs, or wood filer? Also, I'm not familiar with scotia trim, what is that? Thank you so much for sharing your photos, its nice to see other peoples work. Now I need to get the carpet off of my stairs to see what I will really be working with. Wife says I need to finish the bathroom remodel first, but your pics have got me itching to get the stairs started. Thanks again for sharing, they look great. Hope you dont mind answering more questions down the road as I actually get to tear into this project.

[Spencer Hochstetler]

Thanks for the kind words. I can't claim to be an expert, but feel free to ask away. I've learned much from this site, so now that I have a few more spare minutes these days, I'm trying to give back. Others who are far more expert than I will have wisdom to impart as well...

Note that in the 2nd series, all of those treads were actually 2 boards that were glued up. The full width tread planks are shown in the first series.

I used one of these to cut the plugs: I glued them in proud and used a sharp chisel to flush cut.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32320&cat=1,180,42288

This is the countersink bit I used:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/MS-7010/Dia-Std-Point-x-14-Trim-Head-Countersink

Here are the screws I used:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0830-TSO/Trim-Head-Unplated-Steel-Grey-Phosphate-Screws


Scotia trim is a little accent piece placed under the tread nose where it meets the top of the riser underneath it. It serves two functions. One is aesthetically, it really finishes things up. The second is that it hides any gaps between the riser and the tread if you don't choose to dado the risers into the bottom of the tread above it. Just thinking about doing that kind of dadoing makes my head spin. Scotia and its power to hide for me! The profile is usually something like this. Ignore the measurements, I just found this profile with Google. The cove is what you see.

[Simon Dupay]

Keep in mind that the cost of the lumber is the cheap part of this whole endeavor if you value your time at all...



Treads that are 1" thick, finished, look good. Do you mean 4/4 rough or finished thickness? To get a 4/4 finished thickness, you need to start with 5/4 and plane it.


At work we make 3/4" treads with a 5/16"x 1 1/4" strip glued on the front for the bullnose.

[Spencer Hochstetler]

At work we make 3/4" treads with a 5/16"x 1 1/4" strip glued on the front for the bullnose.

There are a thousand ways to skin a cat. Because the lumber is the cheap part for me, I'd rather just make it all thick - a preference, I suppose.

[Richard Wolf]

Spencer, nice job on your stairs, they turned out well.

Richard

[Dustin Nuckolls]

Spencer,
Is that red or white oak?

[Spencer Hochstetler]

It's red oak. White oak is also very nice. A bit more refined looking, but it was less available when I had my flooring milled, so everything is red.