Cutting laminated particle board shelves

[Dan Mages]

I need to cut some laminated shelves. Any tips on doing this and preventing tare-out? i heard that it is a good idea to tape the cutting area. Is this true?

Thanks!

Dan

[Dale Thompson]

Dan,
I think that we need more information than you supplied. What kind of saw are you using? What kind of laminate are you cutting? Taping is SOMETIMES a good idea but usually a waste of time. :)

Dale T.

[Dan Mages]

I will be using the prelaminated fiberboard shelves that are available at almost every home center in the country. I will be cutting this on a table saw.

Dan

[John Miliunas]

I'm not an authority on this (that's Dale's field :D ), but if it's the same stuff we get around here, the laminate isn't very thick and I've had little problem cutting it on the TS. If it's a cut which will be facing out, I will occasionally run a line of tape on the cut line. Not sure if that helps or if it's because I'm using a nice Forrest blade, but it comes through quite clean. Zero clearance inserts help, as well, though I haven't had the chance to make any up for my current saw and the last bunch of the laminated stuff I ran was just fine. Typically, I will set the blade depth just so the gullets clear the material. :cool:

[Mike Palmer]

John, makes a good point with the zero clearance insert. The insert will provide support on the lower edge of the cut. The most bullet proof method I have found for cutting this stuff and veneered plywood is to make two cuts. The first is a score cut with the blade raise to about 1/16-1/8". Then raise the blade up to a comfortable height and make the final cut. It is a little extra work but it works.

In utopia, all table saws would come with scoring blades.

I hope this helps.

[Dale Thompson]

Dan,
I'm afraid that I will have to agree with Mr. Miliunas on this one. I'm not sure how he got along without any pictures but what do I know??

Needless to say, if you are cutting shelves on a table saw, they should be short shelves if you are using your fence. Also, needless to say, DON'T combine your fence and your miter gauge to provide stability for your cut. That can be VERY dangerous - make that - WILL be very dangerous!!

Dale T.

[Tim Sproul]

Dan,

best way.....lay a scrap of thin sheet good underneath (tape it if it won't stick well by itself to the laminate).....the top side when cutting on table saw will have no problems. Hardboard or 1/8 or 1/4 inch plywood work well.....be sure to support a sizeable width of the piece to keep it square to the blade. BTW, most times you only need to worry about one side looking good.

[Tim Morton]

I just built some shelves for my daughters closet using this stuff, melamine. I found that cutting on a miter saw left zero chipping on the surface facing up, and minimal on the surface facing down. And for some reason it was the reverse on my table saw. This was with no taping and identical combination crosscut Freud blades.

[Jamie Buxton]

I will be using the prelaminated fiberboard shelves that are available at almost every home center in the country. I will be cutting this on a table saw.

Dan

When I'm cross-cutting splintery veneered plywood on a tablesaw, I do a poor-man's version of the scoring attachment on some industrial saws: I make two passes. It works very well. The first pass is only 50 thou deep or so, and the second pass is the full thickness of the plywood. The first pass cuts the veneer at a very shallow angle and consequently doesn't splinter.

For this technique to work right, the two passes must be exactly at the same place on the board. I use a cut-off sled on my table saw. It is quite stable, and the two passes fall exactly on top of each other. I push the first pass through the saw (with the very shallow cut), pull the sled back without turning off the saw, crank the blade up an inch or so, and make the second pass. Normally, pulling a workpiece backwards through the saw would be asking for trouble, but it isn't in this case. I'm pulling it back through a kerf which I just cut, so there's nothing for the blade to grab to kick back. The point about not moving the workpiece on the sled between passes is that the two cuts have to be right in the same place on the board.

If you don't have a cross-cut sled, and don't want to make one, another approach is to score the veneer with a knife before you cut it on the table saw. You only have to score the underside. You do want the knife cut to be right on the edge of the table saw cut, so it is important to measure and mark things carefully. The downside to this technique is that if the knife cut is in the saw kerf, you may get splintering, and if it is too far away from the saw kerf, you'll see the substrate. In the bookshelf that you're cutting, this latter failure mode may not be too bad. After all, who's going to be looking closely in the corners?

Jamie

[Dale Thompson]

I just built some shelves for my daughters closet using this stuff, melamine. I found that cutting on a miter saw left zero chipping on the surface facing up, and minimal on the surface facing down. And for some reason it was the reverse on my table saw. This was with no taping and identical combination crosscut Freud blades.

Tim,
Thank you VERY MUCH!! I will be sure to include you in my will. I tried to tell all these guys the same thing a week or so ago on a thread which turned out to very long and everybody laughed at me. :(

It is entitled, "Have you heard the one about ---?". OK you guys!! Listen to TIM. He KNOWS the facts 'cause HE has used a REAL saw. It's time for you pretenders to throw away your plastic "sand box" toys and get some REAL hardware!! ;) :p

I've got a sale going on "Humble Pie". I expect it to be a real popular item. It's just a darn good thing that I'm too terrific a human being to say, "I TOLD YOU SO!!". I would NEVER do that! :rolleyes: :) Incidentally, monetary expressions of apology are always welcome! :cool: :) Thanks again, Tim!!

Dale T.

[David Rose]

All I can say is that I am suuure glad I don't have a table saw! Dale can't blame me for that one! I did say "0" chip out on top on the miter saw. I do have one of those. And the same is true of the bandsaw. But I will tell you... all he will will you is a bucket full of bolts, so don't count on his will being worth much. It won't, will it?

So two people in the world agree on something. That makes it right? :rolleyes: Tim, we won't say you are wrong as long as you agree to not agree with Dale. ...whether he is right or wrong... That is no longer relevant.

David, who gets all the humble pie he wants free


Tim,
Thank you VERY MUCH!! I will be sure to include you in my will. I tried to tell all these guys the same thing a week or so ago on a thread which turned out to very long and everybody laughed at me. :(

It is entitled, "Have you heard the one about ---?". OK you guys!! Listen to TIM. He KNOWS the facts 'cause HE has used a REAL saw. It's time for you pretenders to throw away your plastic "sand box" toys and get some REAL hardware!! ;) :p

I've got a sale going on "Humble Pie". I expect it to be a real popular item. It's just a darn good thing that I'm too terrific a human being to say, "I TOLD YOU SO!!". I would NEVER do that! :rolleyes: :) Incidentally, monetary expressions of apology are always welcome! :cool: :) Thanks again, Tim!!

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

David,
You get all that you want. I'm pushing my "crow" filling this week. ;) On the other hand, you were certainly right about the "good side DOWN" thing with a circular saw.

Unfortunately, for impugning my inheritable assets, you will only get ONE scoop of "cow pie" on your "crow pie". Sorry, David, I have standards. I REALLY wish that I could make an exception in YOUR case. But if I did, what would be next? Where do I draw the line??

Tim get two pounds of Dream Whip on top of a five pound piece of chocolate swirl angel food cake. :) :) I KNOW who my friends are!! :cool: ;)

Dale T.

[David Rose]

Dale, I'm not through with you yet on this "issue". :mad: I have a couple of dogs that are getting some years on them. I still teach them. They still learn. Heads are much harder than they use to be, but they learn. :rolleyes: So hold on to my crow pie, my cow pie and the humble pie. If I don't need them on this discussion, I'm sure to in the future. Formalities aside, on to the point. The following is now serious. Change modes. :) And keep in mind that I don't own a table saw so have no way to verify my theory. That makes it easy to take advantage of me too. ;)

If there is more tearout on the top of the piece, why would you not make a scoring cut then flip the piece over if you seek to minimize it? Is the idea of scoring just a myth? When I cut sheet goods with my circular saw with a quality blade and a guide the bottom of the sheet usually has a nice cut. Tearout on the top is unpredictable but normally much worse. Isn't the principle the same only upside down? My experience with the saws I do have is that the more abrupt an angle the teeth exit the piece, the more wood chips (along side the cut, not in it) they take out with them.

I realize that reasoning does not stand up to experience, but experience can cause a search for the true reason. That is my real quest here.

David


David,
You get all that you want. I'm pushing my "crow" filling this week. ;) On the other hand, you were certainly right about the "good side DOWN" thing with a circular saw.

Unfortunately, for impugning my inheritable assets, you will only get ONE scoop of "cow pie" on your "crow pie". Sorry, David, I have standards. I REALLY wish that I could make an exception in YOUR case. But if I did, what would be next? Where do I draw the line??

Tim get two pounds of Dream Whip on top of a five pound piece of chocolate swirl angel food cake. :) :) I KNOW who my friends are!! :cool: ;)

Dale T.

[Robert Ducharme]

Tim,
Thank you VERY MUCH!! I will be sure to include you in my will. I tried to tell all these guys the same thing a week or so ago on a thread which turned out to very long and everybody laughed at me. :(

It is entitled, "Have you heard the one about ---?". OK you guys!! Listen to TIM. He KNOWS the facts 'cause HE has used a REAL saw. It's time for you pretenders to throw away your plastic "sand box" toys and get some REAL hardware!! ;) :p

I've got a sale going on "Humble Pie". I expect it to be a real popular item. It's just a darn good thing that I'm too terrific a human being to say, "I TOLD YOU SO!!". I would NEVER do that! :rolleyes: :) Incidentally, monetary expressions of apology are always welcome! :cool: :) Thanks again, Tim!!

Dale T.


Dale, are you leaving him the coffee can?

[Dale Thompson]

Dale, are you leaving him the coffee can?

Robert,
Let the rest of the world mourn but Tim gets the coffee can when I croak. That is, of course, assuming that he will continue to support my many off-the-wall positions. One slip though and Tim is back in the "Creek" with no "can".

ps. My smilies and stuff are all gone. How can I express myself clearly without cartoons to clarify my thoughts?

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

ps. My smilies and stuff are all gone. How can I express myself clearly without cartoons to clarify my thoughts?

Dale T.

Sheeeesh Dale, it's sure a GOOD thing I'm not mad about being overlooked for that coffee can, but I'll try to help, anyway. When you submit a reply, scroll down the page a bit further (past the "Submit Reply" button). You'll see some "miscellaneous options", one of them being: "Disable smiles in text". That may have inadvertently gotten checked. :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Dale, I'm not through with you yet on this "issue". :mad: I have a couple of dogs that are getting some years on them. I still teach them. They still learn. Heads are much harder than they use to be, but they learn. :rolleyes: So hold on to my crow pie, my cow pie and the humble pie. If I don't need them on this discussion, I'm sure to in the future. Formalities aside, on to the point. The following is now serious. Change modes. :) And keep in mind that I don't own a table saw so have no way to verify my theory. That makes it easy to take advantage of me too. ;)

If there is more tearout on the top of the piece, why would you not make a scoring cut then flip the piece over if you seek to minimize it? Is the idea of scoring just a myth? When I cut sheet goods with my circular saw with a quality blade and a guide the bottom of the sheet usually has a nice cut. Tearout on the top is unpredictable but normally much worse. Isn't the principle the same only upside down? My experience with the saws I do have is that the more abrupt an angle the teeth exit the piece, the more wood chips (along side the cut, not in it) they take out with them.

I realize that reasoning does not stand up to experience, but experience can cause a search for the true reason. That is my real quest here.

David

David,
I've got to be serious on this whole post. My smilies and stuff are gone (what happened) and people may take my stupid, sarcastic humor seriously.

Whatever, it is easy to explain why there is no "chipping" when using a RAS, a bandsaw and a CMS when cutting "good" side up. The first surface to get touched by the blade tooth in its downward arc is the top surface. Therefore, the material below supports the downward shear stress on the material above (i.e. the laminate or "good" plywood surface). The same is true when using a circular saw to cut with the "good" side down because the blade rotates "away" from the operator and, therefore, the tooth hits the surface in a manner which tends to push the "good" side into the supporting material above it. The next one is tougher.

With a table saw, cutting with the "good" side up, we have a scenario where the tooth hits the "good" side in a downward arc. That will not cause chipping. With the "good" side down, the tooth hits the "good" side last and, therefore only has to cut the laminate or "A" side. A good blade should cut this stuff with no problem. I know that my argument weakens at this point. On the other hand, most of us with table saws purposely misalign our blade and fence by a few thousandths. We "open" up the back to prevent binding. Assuming this condition it is easy to explain with the above discussion. It is the back of the blade which causes chipping when the "good" side is UP. NO SUPPORT! With the "good" side DOWN, this "misalignment" is fully supported. WHEW!!

I have no problem with "scoring". I've done it many times when I use my router for running dados in plywood. Just make sure that you measure accurately.

Lastly, for "newbies", (CERTAINLY not YOU, David). If none of this works, you should be working on your saw alignment, blade sharpness, technique, etc.

David!! How did I do!! Does ANY of this make sense to YOU?? To get on the "Creek" I had to leave home. At least one village (Peshtigo) is short of its idiot!!

Where are my Smilies??

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

Ahhh, beats me! I did a number of cuts on the TS today and payed attention to the results. I had good side up, as usual, and there wasn't any tearout. :D

As for your "smiley" issue, did you check at the options to be sure they aren't disabled? :rolleyes:

[Dale Thompson]

Sheeeesh Dale, it's sure a GOOD thing I'm not mad about being overlooked for that coffee can, but I'll try to help, anyway. When you submit a reply, scroll down the page a bit further (past the "Submit Reply" button). You'll see some "miscellaneous options", one of them being: "Disable smiles in text". That may have inadvertently gotten checked. :cool:

Thanks Spring,
I just rebooted my computer and they came back. I was only trying to trim your "stache" and I messed up my whole hard drive. ;) :D

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

Dale, glad you got that straightened out! :D It was getting hard to understand what you were saying. (You know...The whole picture and cartoon thing and all....:rolleyes: ). BTW, even if I *wanted* to do it, LOML won't let me cut my "stache", so don't even think about it or you'll have to deal with HER! :eek: "Remember, Hell hath nor fury......" :cool:

[Dan Mages]

Thanks for the advice. I will make some test cuts tonight... time permitting of course.

[Robert Ducharme]

Are those test cuts of John's mustache :confused:

[John Miliunas]

Oh keeeeripes! Another one after the old "stache"! :eek: Dale, it's all YOUR fault!:mad: :D :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Oh keeeeripes! Another one after the old "stache"! :eek: Dale, it's all YOUR fault!:mad: :D :cool:


Hey Spring,
FAULT?? I'm trying to help. What will you do when they no longer sell "stache" glue? :cool: I'm only thinking of your future mental state, bud. :p

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

Hey Spring,
FAULT?? I'm trying to help. What will you do when they no longer sell "stache" glue? :cool: I'm only thinking of your future mental state, bud. :p

Dale T.
"What will I do?" Hmmmm....Well, let's see; Maybe I could use sunglasses to hide my identity! :D I mean, heck, why not? I already wear them when I visit the post office! ;) :cool:

[Bob Oswin]

Score the dado with a utility knife prior to cutting it.
You should use a square for this as well.
This works in any wood by the way.

Bob

[Dan Mages]

The new shelves are in! Here is what I have learned. You should tape the seam to get a good writing surface and mark out both sides of the kerf (assuming you want a clean cut on both sides). Then using a sharp utility knife blade, give it a few quick passes on both kerf lines. When I passed it through the saw, it cut like butta. No tear out worth noticing!

Thanks for the help.

Dan