Got a nice surprise today

[Fred Voorhees]

Probably shouldn't even mention it but what the heck. As you can see in another thread, I have taken delivery of my new Jet cabinet saw. Part of the deal was that you would get a $100 rebate and also a nice pair of 31" Jet parallel clamps - similar to the Bessey style. I am still waiting on the rebate, but the clamps were sitting up against my garage today when I got home from work. I opened the carton to find two boxes. Ok, one clamp per box. Not! When I opened the first of two identical boxes, I found not one - but a pair of 31" clamps. I thought "I couldn't be that lucky could I?" I opened the second box and sure enough, there was another pair of 31" clamps. Nice bonus. Someone wasn't paying attention.

[Peter Quinn]

Good deal. A while back I ordered some Bessy K-bodies, four to be exact. 52" seemed long enough, and at that price 4 was all I could afford. What arrived was four 'Door Sets', which included 2 @52", 2@ 36", and four of those square stand off blocks per set! 16 K-Bodies with blocks for under $150! I probably should have called them to inform them of their error, but my phone was out of service and....oh heck, I just kept um.

[Jim Becker]

He clamps...he scores!! :D

[Mike Kenney]

That other box was mine justgive me your address and ill be over to collect them:D

[Jason Beam]

He clamps...he scores!! :D


If he were European, he'd cramp ... sore!!! :D

[Spencer Hochstetler]

Why don't you send the extras back? (on Jet's dime, of course)

[Fred Voorhees]

Why don't you send the extras back? (on Jet's dime, of course)

Yeah, I'll give that some serious thought.;)

[Keith Starosta]

Yeah, I'll give that some serious thought.;)


BWAHAHAHA!!! :D

[Dave Sharpe]

OK, at the risk of sounding a bit like a throwback - I have to agree with Spencer. At least call the shipper and inform them of the mistake and give them the oppoortunity to make it right (they may decide to just gift you the clamps as a less-expensive alternative than paying for the return of what are now used items) Keeping them, and then going so far as to gloat about it, seems a bit dishonest to me. Sure it's THEIR mistake, but your response is YOUR choice. I wouldn't want a pair of clamps hanging in my shop that I felt even slightly guilty about using. (as in "a pair of cramps that had been crimped" for those Britishers out there.) Do the right thing and call the manufacturer.
As for those of you cheering him on - I'm not sure I'd want to engage in a business transaction with you. Whatever happened to integrity in our dealings with others?

Dave

[Jim Chilenski]

I'm with Spencer here.

If you had been shipped only one box that contained only one clamp you would be complaining about the reseller and wanting the additional clamp.

Mistakes occur, I make more than enough. But why is it acceptable to profit from someone else's mistake?

Jim

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

How dare we???

We beat down our suppliers for the very best price.

We want instant delivery, and we want absolutely the very best in quality, appearance, and performance.

We want the best deal on the block so that we can "gloat" on SMC to our buddies.

And then, when the supplier screws up and sends us extra, we want to keep it...again gloating that we got a great deal, or that we are crooked.

Oh ya, and we expect the supplier's to stay in business forever in case we chip the paint on our pretty cabinet, or a belt goes out, or heaven forbid, the fence might drag a little....but don't you suppliers go making any money on us!!!!

I realize I won't be missed around here, heck, my post count is pretty low anyway...but between the dishonesty that is proudly displayed here, the pettiness, the display of ego's, the lack of real woodworking, the laziness on the part of many to do even the most basic of research on their own.....

I'm almost feeling it a blessing that Sprint is going to change my connection contract and that I'm going to cancel them with no viable alternative....I've been spending far to much time on the net anyway....

Ya, keep those clamps, what's a few bucks to our suppliers???? Check them close, maybe the paint is chipped and you can get them to exchange them....

[David Cramer]

Okay, I know that many won't agree with my logic, but here it goes anyways. I am laid up on crutches, so I thought what the heck, I'd respond with my take:). I am not saying that I am right, it is just another opinion based off my personal experiences. Fair enough?

With all due respect Doug, and I am not being sarcastic or rude when I say this, but your statement about the "lack of real woodworking" is really not fair. There are some extremely talented and giving woodworkers on this site and I am sure you are well aware of that.

As far as not agreeing with Fred, I won't argue your points friend, you are entitled to them, and rightly so. Heck, your post total is more than mine:).

Still, whether you or I agree with Fred or not, think about it like this. It may not be right to keep them regardless, but sometimes in life we get screwed over and then when we finally get something a little extra thrown our way we maybe justify it as a positive payback, a good karma type of thing for a previous screwover?

I can tell you for sure that I would have called Jet and told them, but that doesn't make me better, it's just me. It also doesn't bother me that Fred shared the fact that he got an extra box with 2 more clamps in it. When it's a major company versus a one on one transaction with only 2 people involved, I think that there is a mental difference in the willingness to accept something.

I didn't say that it made it right, nor did I imply it. I am saying that it is easier for someone to accept/justify, versus a one on one thing because in the long run, it won't really hurt Jet at all and you know that as well as I. There is a thing called inventory and with that is a thing called shrinkage.

I gaurantee you that somewhere along the way, more than one person was overcharged by Jet or Jet didn't do someone fairly and I don't think any Jet employees lost any sleep over that. I will also say that Jet has never done me wrong and the only problem that I ever had, they took care of. Oh it took awhile, but they did the right thing and I was the only one who lost anything, with MAJOR phone time involved and driving here and there. But my friend, that is part of business and returning a defective item, which I knew that when I made the purchase. Returning things are rarely painless.

When we sold our first van about 8 years back, I forgot to put the cargo mesh cage thingy back in the van. I found it on a shelf in the garage the next day and immediately called the guy up and drove to his house (a half hour away) to give it to him. That's me. He didn't know it even exsisted, but I did and I felt better that he had it and not me. Throwing it away would have been wrong.

Anyways, I hope you keep your connection and stay on the Creek, but I do believe you must have been having a bad day when you made your post, because there are some really giving guys on this board and they are real woodworkers.

I can personally say that I have never displayed my ego on this board and if I have, I apologize to you. After meeting David Marks and seeing his work up close, I know that I am a hack on my best day, but hey, I am an :Dimproving:D hack and that's good enough for me.

Please lighten up friend, Fred didn't rob a bank or steal something from a store and I bet he has more integrity than you or I believe. He was probably just a little excited to get something extra, maybe for once in his life. No biggie!

David

p.s. For what it's worth, I don't beat down my suppliers on prices and I don't want instant delivery. I am not rich either. Heck, I just waited 6 weeks for a backorder on a 12/3 cord reel from Grizzly. The price is the price and when it arrives, it arrives. Living life that way keeps one's blood pressure down.

[Matt Ocel]

Yeah -
Thats pretty sweet but check this out.

First of all when I got my PM2000 - same thing 2 pair of clamps. So I think they might just throw them in on purpose.

Now for the real Sweetness -

When I oredered my Incra LS positioner from Amazon, I opened the box and said "NO Way" "Can't Be" "They didn't send me":confused:-----I opened the box(s)----------:D

2 of em!!!!!

Yeah Baby!

[Keith Starosta]

...

the lack of real woodworking,

....

:eek: :rolleyes:

Based on that comment, and the tone in which you decided to deliver your thoughts, I say good riddance.

...ridiculous statement...

- Keith

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Probably shouldn't even mention it but

You got that right! Just for the record Fred I'd keep them too! I guess that makes me a bad person, but I hate standing in line at the post office and you never have enough clamps! :D

[John Viercinski]

I'd keep them. While I believe Jet plans for mistakes like this, the real inconvenience is on you. If you feel you need to return this to be honest, Jet just basically mailed you an errand. In this box is a set of clamps and in this second box is a 15 minute drive to the post office (with gas at $4.25 a gallon), a 20 minute wait in line and not to mention postage... that I'm sure at some point before the end of the Bush administration Jet will refund you for.

It's not unethical or immoral to keep them. This isn't like the local Ford dealership dropped off two trucks in your driveway. But, it certainly doesn't hurt to mail them back either.

If the local lumberyard accidentally gave you 120 board feet of cherry instead of 100, would you chop the end off and drive it back?? Doubtful.

[Mark Carlson]

No errand required in this case besides picking up the phone. Call Jet tell them you got an extra box of clamps. If Jet would like them back they can arrange for a UPS pickup. Place package by door. Done.

~mark

[Dennis Lopeman]

I think we lost Fred! :)

AFTER THIS debate, I certainly would not want to respond!!

[mreza Salav]

Nobody can dictate Fred what to do or not, and it's better not to ruin his happy moments with the new tools :)

For me, whenever such a thing happens (even in a grocery store when they make a mistake and don't charge me for an item) I go back and tell them. Typically (but not always), they just say that's fine and I leave even happier. Once ordering from LV, the lady made a small mistake and didn't charge me a drill-bit (worth a few bucks only). In my next trip I told them and said I'm willing to pay for it. They just thanked me for pointing this out and being hones and said because it was their error no need to do anything. I just cannot have it on my shoulders no matter how small the item.

In this particular case, there is a good chance Jet people say the same thing. Even if they want it back, I'd tell them it's their responsibility to come and pick it up (I'd just leave it outside the house as if it just dropped out of the truck by mistake!). I personally would be happier if I tell them.

My 2 Canadian cents.

[Jack Camillo]

I bet if you called them, they'd tell you to keep them. This way, you can feel good about trying.

[Fred Voorhees]

I think we lost Fred! :)

AFTER THIS debate, I certainly would not want to respond!!


Lost me.....no haven't lost me. I just haven't been on the 'puter since starting the thread basically. I DO have to work and have had other things to do before firing up the new Dell tonight. Wow....I didn't anticipate a thorough morals issue to come from this post. Listen, waves come towards the beach and the sea washes back out. In life, you get screwed and you sometimes catch a break. Sh*t happens and sometimes it happens in your favor, though in my life sometimes, it seems like if goes the other way....so, when I have the opportunity to put a little sunshine in my life, I jump at the chance. Do I feel the need to justify my actions to everyone who questions my ethics.....anyone who knows me intimately will tell you absolutely not. I'm comfortable in my skin....and that is what I go to bed with.

[Clara Koss]

That other box was mine justgive me your address and ill be over to collect them:D


yeah NOT they're MINE (THAT WAS GOOD)

[Tim Anderson]

Ok Fred, my mouse hovered over the Post Reply button for quite some time before posting so here goes. Everyone has gotten something for nothing. Those that don't think they have are either lying to themselves or not paying attention IMO. It's your decision what you do, I guess the emotion comes when someone else tells me what to do as if they have never kept something. With that said I hope you enjoy the clamps.

[Don Inghram]

Congrats on your new clamps Fred. Probably saved some poor dude working in shipping from losing his job. I'd of kept em without a second thought. In fact they would now become my favorite clamps.

[Peter Quinn]

Fred didn't push an old lady down the stairs to steal her monthly social security check for drug money (or at least he didn't mention such here). He spent thousands of dollars on a BRAND NEW TABLE SAW part of which included a small premium of a few clamps from WMH to sweeten the deal and snag his business. I'm a relatively honest guy, I've given cashiers having a mental lapse an opportunity to recount the change they have given me when the error is in my favor. In a face to face business transaction I always do this. I don't steal pens from work, I don't pad the bill, I don't sneak out of work early even on Fridays in the summer. I don't go looking for more than I've earned or paid for.

But when Amazon sent me a bunch extra clams I KEPT THEM. Their opportunity to count them, to run an efficient business, to send me what I ordered ended when they threw that stuff in the back of a brown truck and sent it on its way. I don't have time to operate as a large internet sellers shipping and receiving QA man. If they call and ask for them back they are welcomed to come and get them. I would not call them back two years later to let them know that my box of 1000 assembly screws only contained 880 pieces. My chance to rectify that was upon receipt.

To the gentleman from Oregon, if you are still listening, You can save the judgmental thing for others who strive to be perfect or until you can prove you are. Casting the first stone is dicey business. As to the majority of your comments they are so ridiculous I can only assume you were kidding. If not remember you can choose your friends.....

[Dave Sharpe]

So this has been an interesting foray into ethics in our business dealings. Some have no qualms about keeping items sent to them, while others seem to think this equates to stealing. Some feel that it's OK to have one set of standards for face-to-face dealings with individuals, while maintaining another set of standards for dealing with "big corporations". There's a lot of finger-pointing and condemnation going on here, but it's sure been interesting to see the arguments going on. I happen to enjoy ethical dilemnas (as long as they're happening to someone else) and for anyone else who enjoys such debates, read a book called "Do you think what you think you think?" or "The pig who wants to be eaten". I don't remember the author's name, but both are a series of ethical questions that really dig into how we apply (in most cases quite loosely) our values.
I think that it's safe to say that most of us on this website are basically honest, most are men, most are middle-aged or older, and most have enough disposable income to spend on tools and our workshops. I doubt that anyone who has time to review this site is wondering where his next meal is coming from, nor do they consider themselves dishonest. I certainly do not consider myself better than any of you - indeed, as far as woodworking goes (the whole point of this site) I suspect nearly all of you are more skilled and experienced than I am. As far as morality goes, I accept that others have different values than I do, and I wouldn't presume to judge any of you. But I did urge Fred to "do the right thing" and I still do, even though it's clear from his postings that he has no interest in doing what I feel is "the right thing". That's OK. I'm good with that. But I wouldn't enter into a business contract with him, or any of the others who share his apparent values. There are some on this list who I would trust to hold my wallet, and some I wouldn't...................

Dave

[Spencer Hochstetler]

It's simple, do unto others...yada, yada, yada. While apparently quaint, it makes the world a better place in my opinion. If they omitted the clamps, or maybe the rip fence, would Jet have been called?

I only got a joke in reply to my original question, but I was serious. Why not give them a call and see if they meant and/or care that there was an extra somethingorother there? It's easy, and if I were the seller I'd appreciate it. I'd probably let it slide, especially given the amount of the original purchase. Or maybe they meant to throw them in there? Who knows. No judgement of morals intended, it just makes sense to me to see what the deal was. What doesn't make sense, to me at least, is the first post. Before the first sentence was even typed, the OP knew it would generate some controversy, yet it was posted anyway. To each their own.

[Tim Marks]

I realize I won't be missed around here, heck, my post count is pretty low anyway...but between the dishonesty that is proudly displayed here, the pettiness, the display of ego's, the lack of real woodworking, the laziness on the part of many to do even the most basic of research on their own.....

It always amuses me when people feel the need to trumpet their exit from a forum with a "profound statement" which they seem to sincerely hope will shake things up and change the world.

Pettiness, laziness, dishonesty, lack of basic research? Sounds like Doug hasn't spent much time on other forums, because this one is like a haven of tranquility compared to everywhere else. This is like the local bar where people go after work; there is no requirement that we work while we are here.

[David Cramer]

I try to not go back and regurgitate my thoughts on posts, but based off a few recent posts, I have to respond by saying the world and things that happen in it are not black and white, or high and low. There are in betweens and each situation is different.

As I said in my earlier post, Fred didn't rob a bank or steal something from a store, and sometimes we get screwed in life with no recourse and we look at things like this as good karma or a positive payback. Jet will not go out of business over these clamps and it is MORE of their own responsibility to ship the correct items, not Fred's. As an individual, we don't have a shrinkage right-off, but big businesses do, and believe it or not, they expect a certain amount of shrinkage every year and it is figured in. So yes, there IS a different set of standards for dealing with big corporations versus face to face dealings with individuals.

If you work at the Big 3 and take a pencil home, that is not yours to take, is that the same as stealing a car off their assembley line when no one is looking? Yes, there is a BIG difference between the 2 acts.

Just the same there is big difference between you not getting a rip fence that you expect to get with your table saw, that you paid about $2000 for, versus getting something extra in the mail WITH your table saw purchase. Some call it justification or rationalization, I call it being realistic.

Heck, if it was hurting Jet that bad, then why did they send out the free ones to begin with? As far as anyone on this board knows, they could have done it on purpose because they had extras to send and gave them out to people who made large purchases or past purchases with Jet. Remember, this didn't just happen to one person............see Matt Ocel's post after my first. I truely think they did do it on purpose, regardless of what others think.

I don't know him from anyone else on this board, but my opinion is to LAY OFF Fred and stop questioning his integrity. He got an extra set of clamps in the mail, he didn't rip Jet off, they gave him a bonus.

David

[Dave Sharpe]

Ok, quick response to David Cramer - and no attack on Fred or others. We all have to make our own choices in life.
Your repeated assertion that Jet, or any big company, factors in losses to their budget is true, but not relevant. It's simply rationalizing questionable behavior on the part of the individual . Try this example on for size:
Say I come to visit you in your shop and you notice that my wallet has fallen out of my pocket onto your workbench. Would you return it to me intact? I think you would - as most of us would. You've made it clear that there is a difference between interactions between individuals and those involving large corporations. Clearly it would be wrong for you to keep my wallet and rationalize it by saying "He must have wanted me to have it - otherwise he wouldn't have left it here...."
Now let's saya that you open my wallet and discover that I have a bank balance of millions of dollars (I wish). Would that change your actions? Would it then be OK to keep the $20 in cash you found there? Is it OK to "reward yourself" with the cash without my knowledge simply because I have "plenty"? After all, you didn't take my wallet by force - it's not your fault I left it there.
It simply comes down to personal integrity. The question isn't whether JET intended to send extra clamps to Fred or not. We aren't really talking about Jet's integrity here. Rather, we are talking about personal integrity and what our own responses would be in a given situation. I don't mean to rag on Fred, and I'm far from perfect - I too have faced such temptations and not always responded as I wished I would have. We simply see things differently and have different values. But it is worthwhile for us to discuss such values and encourage each other to be better people rather than to encourage behavior that is certainly questionable.

Dave

[Jason Beam]

Both scenerios are comparing apples to oranges.

Here's what happened:

Fred bought a product that INCLUDED some accessory items. It was part of his purchase price.

Fred got his product, the included accessory items. He also got additional accessory items.

According to the moral argument, it's Fred's ethical duty to inform the company that sent him the extra items and offer them the chance to take them back.

So ... how many of you give back all the extra screws, nuts and bolts, washers you get with a piece of equipment? If it's truly black and white, it is your moral duty to inform the company that they gave you extra stuff and give them the opportunity to take it back.

Oh but those are just screws and hardware items, right? They're little ... okay, fine. Where's the line? If you see it in black and white, there is no line - it's morally wrong to keep the nuts and bolts.

I'll bet we hear similar "rationalization" from many of the people who've protested in this thread.

The answer is simple: There IS a line. That line is subjective and people draw their own lines.

I would have probably kept 'em. I might have said something to the vendor, but as far as I'm concerned the size of the misake has just as much influence on who should have caught it before it went out the door as it is on who should say something in the event the mistake actually did get through.

Fred's a nice guy. He isn't a theif. :)

[Dave Sharpe]

Jason - some good points there. I agree it would be ridiculous to return extra washers or nuts in a packaging bag. So the magnitude of the oversight does indeed have a bearing on the issue. It is NOT black and white.
But it would also be ridiculous to post on this site a message that says "Woo Hoo!! I got two extra 3/8" washers with my new tool!" Clearly we all see a pair of clamps as having more value than two washers. As you said, the line is subjective, and people draw their own lines. Fred drew that line when he gloated online about the event. I wouldn't go so far as to call Fred a theif, or even say he's not a good person. I don't know him. I don't condemn him for his "good luck". (probably a debatable term at this point) But neither would I praise him for his actions or me-first attitude.

Dave