Help with water stones and sharpening

[Dave Lehnert]

I am using a combo water stone 1000X4000 from Lee Valley.Stone B below. I also use a jig. It seems to me I have to spend way too much time on each grit. The first grit I can understand. No matter how hard I try I just cant get the exact angel set in my jig so it takes time to regrind the bevel. But when I go to the 4000 grit (without resetting the jig) I spent 1/2 hour and did not get it finished before I gave out. I would think one would only need to spend just a short time on each grit. From what I have read going from 1000 to 4000 is standard. Not like I am skipping a grit. Or am I?

Also when using a water stone. I soak it in water when not in use. When I start using it should I keep a film of water at all times on top or do I use it dry no additionalhttp://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/sharpening/60m5005s1.jpg water after taken out of the bath?

[Mike Henderson]

The only time I've had that problem is when the stones are not flat. That is, if I have the tool in a jig and grind it on one grit, then go to the finer grit and it doesn't "match" the bevel (doesn't polish evenly).

If I flatten the stones the problem goes away.

Mike

[Dave Lehnert]

The only time I've had that problem is when the stones are not flat. That is, if I have the tool in a jig and grind it on one grit, then go to the finer grit and it doesn't "match" the bevel (doesn't polish evenly).

If I flatten the stones the problem goes away.

Mike

Thanks! I will give that a try. I did get grit from Lee Valley to flatten water stones on plate glass.

[Mike Cutler]

Dave

I have a few water stones. 220, 800, 1000,1200,2000,4000,8000. As Mike says. if they all aren't dead flat, when you switch to the next grit you effectively begin all over.

On the initial run through of any plane blade, or chisel. I've found that it's slow going. establishing the primary bevel takes some time. The 1000 grit stone you have will take a little more time just because of the finer grit. ( I have an 220 and an 800 grit)

My sequence, using an older style Veritas jig, is as follows;

220, or 800 depending on how much material needs to be removed.

1000, or 1200 depending on which stone I happen to pick up that is flat.;)

I then put the secondary bevel on with the 1000, or 1200 stone.

I then go to the 4000 and then the 8000 and only work on the secondary bevel.

For a reference. Lie- Nielsen ships their planes with a primary bevel only, taken to about 400 grit, and they work just fine. We all have a tendency to go nuts when sharpening, and we really don't need too in my opinion. I'm as guilty as everyone else though. Obtaining that mirror polished edge is cool.

The initial flattening of the back though progresses through all the grits.

I keep the stones in water when not in use and will keep the surface of the stone moist. Flooding the surface of the stone washes away the slurry that has been created which aids in the sharpening process. Sometimes on the lower grits I get so much swarf( metal debris) that I have to flood the surface.

I use a 1/2" thick tempered glass plate and sheets of sandpaper to keep the stones flat. I use a figure eight pattern, and rotate the stone 180 degrees under my hand to ensure even flattening. It's easy to visually see the progress though. A straight edge helps too. One test to see of your faces are flat is to dip two stones in water and press them together. If there is a "suction", and they stick together, they are flat.

This is what works for me. Everyone has a little different technique. I'm sure you'll get a lot of suggestions.

[Johnny Kleso]

1/2 an hour on the bevel is a long time unless your reshaping it.. In a perfect world you would use a power grinder and make a 25* angle and hone the blade at 30* which would take just a few mins..

I fear if you where honing for 1/2 hour the stone is not flat and needs to be corrected by sand paper on top of a a granite tile or inspection plate or a glass plate.. I use a DMT diamond stone which works well..

[Mark Singer]

You need to be able to resharpen quickly. That way you can touch up an edge and keep working. A micro bevel or hollow grind and then use waterstones allows that

[Mike Henderson]

I use a DMT diamond stone which works well..
I do as well.

This will sound like a sales pitch, but...

I had a number of problems in using water stones. One was keeping them flat. I used a piece of glass with sandpaper to flatten them, but the glass was large and (I know now) I didn't flatten the stones as often as I should have because of the room the glass plate took on my bench (I'd try to go as long between flattening as possible).

The second problem was flattening the backs of plane blades and chisels. I would often purchase an old tool which had never been flattened and getting the backs flat on a 1000 grit stone takes a loooong time. Same with establishing the bevel on a chisel.

I was working with a friend and he had a DMT coarse/extra coarse diamond plate and I watched him work. He even allowed me to use his plate for a couple of things. After that, I went out and bought my own.

They're a bit expensive - about $100 - but it has been well worth it. The diamond plate sits next to my water stones when I'm sharpening and I keep the stones flat. If I even *think* the stone is not flat, I'll squiggle a line on it with a pencil and swipe it across the diamond plate. When the line is removed from all the surface of the stone, it's flat.

And it's MUCH faster to flatten the backs of chisels and plane blades and to establish the bevel initially.

I've had that plate for a couple of years now and I can notice that it's not as agressive as it was originally but it still has lots of life left in it. I'm not ready to buy a new one yet - and probably won't be for a couple more years.

My only wish is that they made a two sided extra coarse plate instead of a coarse/extra coarse plate.

Mike

[Spencer Hochstetler]

Dave-

If you are going to invest in a sharpening system from ground zero, avoid stones, unless you are bent on tradition. Personally, when doing the utilitarian-yet-still-required things in woodworking, I go for efficiency coupled to quality. Flattening stones/worrying about flat stones doesn't sound like fun or necessary to me. People here are buying glass, attaching sandpaper to it and then flattening stones and then getting on with it. How about skip the stone part altogether and put your blade on the paper and be done. Diamond is also excellent for efficiency/quality, but it is more expensive. People tend to get "married" to the "way it has been traditionally done" all too often. Sandpaper and diamonds are not very traditional, but progress and improvements over "old" methods wins in my mind. Don't get me wrong, many people use stones with great success, but when putting new money on the table, I always weigh price/quality/speed and sometimes tradition loses.

[Derek Cohen]

It seems to me I have to spend way too much time on each grit.

Hi Dave

The secret to sharpening is to do as little as possible.

With the exception of (Japanese usually) laminated blades, you should not be honing flat bevels - these present too great an area for efficient honing (Japanese laminated blades include just a thin layer of hard steel, so actually act like thinner blades).

Either work with a secondary bevel on a flat grind (created on a belt sander) or a secondary bevel on a hollow grind (created on a bench grinder).

For bevel down plane blades and chisels I prefer a hollow grind at the desired angle. This allows me to freehand the blades on the hollow.

Here is a plane blade with a hollow grind created on the Tormek.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Ruler%20Trick%20on%20Strop/RulerTrickonstrop2.jpg

The hollow runs right to the edge of the blade creating a true microbevel. With so little metal present, it takes just a couple of strokjes on a 1000 grit waterstone to smooth and add camber to the edge, then a few strokes each on 5000 and 8000 Shapton waterstones. Even more importantly, re-sharpening the edge also takes just seconds on a leather strop.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Faurot]

They're [DMT Diamond Plates] a bit expensive - about $100 - but it has been well worth it.


I'm intrigued.

I was just out looking for reputable dealers that have these and came across what's being offered at Craftsman Studio (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T%21D8.htm). Looks like they have the DMT Dia-Sharp line of stones on sale at the moment with individual stones going for about $35-$65. There's also a deal to get three stones and a holder for about $120. The Extra Extra Course (Dia-Sharp D8XX (http://theconsumerlink.com/DiamondMachiningTechnology/detail/TCL+D8XX/0)) is going for $63 and looks to be ideal for initial flattening of blades and chisels in addition to being used for flattening waterstones.

Thanks for the tip, I going to go snag one of the D8XX stones.

[Derek Cohen]

Michael

If you plan to get a DMT diamond stone to flatten waterstones, then get a 10" rather than an 8" (the shorter diamond stone is fine for honing steel but less ideal for flattening waterstones). The extra length aids stability. Also, the Extra Extra Coarse is probably too rough. I use a Extra Coarse and this works well. I have the DMT Dia-Sharp Extra Coarse-Coarse. The Coarse side is reserved for blades. The Extra Coarse is reserved for waterstones.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Spencer Hochstetler]

I'm intrigued.

I was just out looking for reputable dealers that have these and came across what's being offered at Craftsman Studio (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T%21D8.htm). Looks like they have the DMT Dia-Sharp line of stones on sale at the moment with individual stones going for about $35-$65. There's also a deal to get three stones and a holder for about $120. The Extra Extra Course (Dia-Sharp D8XX (http://theconsumerlink.com/DiamondMachiningTechnology/detail/TCL+D8XX/0)) is going for $63 and looks to be ideal for initial flattening of blades and chisels in addition to being used for flattening waterstones.

Thanks for the tip, I going to go snag one of the D8XX stones.

$32.16, free shipping, 11.5" DMT fine.
http://www.amazon.com/DMT-D11F-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Sharpening/dp/B0001WP1HO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1213896695&sr=8-1

$62.14, free shipping, 11" DMT extra-coarse.
http://www.amazon.com/DMT-D11X-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Sharpening/dp/B000PVZDNI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1213896741&sr=1-4

[Mike Henderson]

This (http://www.amazon.com/DMT-W250CXNB-DuoSharp-Coarse-Extra-Coarse/dp/B00004WFUL/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1213897035&sr=8-1) is the diamond stone I've been using.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I am using a combo water stone 1000X4000 from Lee Valley.Stone B below. I also use a jig. It seems to me I have to spend way too much time on each grit. The first grit I can understand. No matter how hard I try I just cant get the exact angel set in my jig so it takes time to regrind the bevel. But when I go to the 4000 grit (without resetting the jig) I spent 1/2 hour and did not get it finished before I gave out. I would think one would only need to spend just a short time on each grit. From what I have read going from 1000 to 4000 is standard. Not like I am skipping a grit. Or am I?

I see a few problems here.

1) The time on the first grit should only be to establish the bevel to the edge. A grit coarser than 1000 would be a better starting point.

2) Why worry about an exact angle? The wood will not notice if you are off a few degrees one way or the other. I do not use holders when sharpening by hand. When using a holder, as long as the full bevel is touching the stone, there is no need to change things.

3) The only time my tools have required a half hour on a grit is if there is a big nick in the edge. A recently purchased chisel did have a nick and a new bevel was established using a 220 and 800 stone. Someday, I will purchase a 1200 stone, but currently my practice takes me from 800 to 4000. Even with this big leap, it would be unusual to spend more than a few minutes before moving to the 8000 grit stone. On the 8000 stone, if it takes more than 20 strokes, something is wrong.

4) Micro bevels do make it a little less work to sharpen a blade. Hollow grinding makes it a lot easier to "get the feel" when hand sharpening. These are great helpers, I am lazy and like most others have developed what works for me. There is not yet a grinding wheel in my shop. Micro bevels are just one of the things that as great as they may be, are not used by me.


Also when using a water stone. I soak it in water when not in use. When I start using it should I keep a film of water at all times on top or do I use it dry no additional water after taken out of the bath?

There are many ways to keep the stone wet and you want to keep the stones wet. My method is a water bottle with a very small hole drilled in the cap. The hole is small enough that if the bottle is on its side, water will not come out of the hole. A plastic soda bottle will work for this. Use one that does not have a thin plastic seal. Others use a spray bottle.

To recap, the coarse stone establishes a bevel. After working on the 800 stone and removing the burr, the blade is actually sharp enough to cut wood. The edge is very rough and will not cut smooth. The progressively finer stones then remove the scratches left by the stone before it. When finished, there will be an edge, that in theory, will be a straight line and have no radius.

jim

[Doug Hobkirk]

My only wish is that they made a two sided extra coarse plate instead of a coarse/extra coarse plate.
Mike - why?

Is there a significant advantage of the perforated stone compared to the continuous stone?

Do you all use fine or extra-fine diamond stones?

[Eddie Darby]

Just got this article in the post today, thought you might find it interesting.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30993

As you go up through the stones, you should be spending less and less time on each one.
You need to wash off the water-stones to remove metal shavings during use.
The only part of the blade that is doing work is the very edge, which is where you need to focus your attention to.
The key to success is to have flat stones all the time! If you do not have this, then you will only achieve something that resembles sharp, but is not.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike - why? (Mike's note:referring to my comment that I'd like two extra coarse surfaces on the diamond plate)
I find the extra coarse cuts faster than the coarse, even on the backs of plane blades and chisels. I'd like to have two extra coarse surfaces instead of one coarse and one extra coarse.

Mike

[Joel Goodman]

I believe that Mike's DMT is 4" X 10" -- much wider than the 2 1/2 X 11" that on Amazon. Craftsman Studio has 3 X 8" similar to the Amazon DMTs - I have them and I like the style Mike has better -- it's much lighter as well as wider. It has a metal substrate over plastic -- the others have 1/4 steel base and are a handful -- but they work. Mike please correct me if I'm wrong about your DMT!

[Johnny Kleso]

I'm intrigued.

I was just out looking for reputable dealers that have these and came across what's being offered at Craftsman Studio (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T%21D8.htm). Looks like they have the DMT Dia-Sharp line of stones on sale at the moment with individual stones going for about $35-$65. There's also a deal to get three stones and a holder for about $120. The Extra Extra Course (Dia-Sharp D8XX (http://theconsumerlink.com/DiamondMachiningTechnology/detail/TCL+D8XX/0)) is going for $63 and looks to be ideal for initial flattening of blades and chisels in addition to being used for flattening waterstones.

Thanks for the tip, I going to go snag one of the D8XX stones.

Amazone has DMT D11X 11" Dia-Sharp Continuous Diamond Surface Sharpening Bench Stone - Extra-Coarse for $62.14 and free shipping
http://www.amazon.com/DMT-D11X-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Sharpening/dp/B000PVZDNI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1213920694&sr=8-3

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31QlmokisjL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

I got mine on sale a few months back for $42 if I remember right :)