Ready to throw in the towel (Coffee table finish) need help

[Jason Scott]

No joke guys, I am so sick of this table I am ready to light it on fire. I'm sooooo pissed, anyway, hoping you can help maybe. The attached picture is an upclose shot of the problem I keep running into, this is the 4th time I have redone the table with a new finish. You already know the shellac incident, so I switched to the arm-r-seal which I know is the best stuff out there and the results are in the picture. This picture was taken after I sanded it back down again the 4th time, b/c the arm-r-seal, while a beautiful finish was leaving what appeared of "brush marks" all over the table even though I rubbed it on, so I am confused as hell. So I thought "maybe I'm putting it on too thick" so I sanded it down, then used a paper towel and "rubbed" in the arm-r-seal this time, very thin and the result is what you see. I am pissed and confused and frustrated guys, can you help? I don't think this is a finish technique problem b/c I have finished nice pieces in the past, what the hell is wrong with this table? Can you tell me what those marks that look like brush marks are? I thought maybe it was just the grain, but it goes right over onto the inlay so it is something on the "surface" but I have sanded and sanded and it keeps giving me this streaky/brush mark look. If I put more arm-r-seal on it builds gloss but still looks like crap b/c you see those damn marks...Even with the arm-r-seal it still looks blotchy and fuzzy to me, far from what DJM, or any other decent craftsman turns out. The table is the nicest piece I have ever made and I feel like I'll never get it finished b/c of this...Is there something "in" the wood causing this? I am so stumped I have no idea what to do, it looks like to me I might as well sand off this 4th, 1st coat again and start over with the 5th time refinishing the top, but I just feel like it is going to turn out like this again. HELP! Thanks for any advice/direction.

[Dwayne Watt]

How did you sand this down? In the photo, these look an awful lot like belt sander marks.

[Jason Scott]

I don't own a belt sander, I used a PC ROS to take down the arm-r-seal finish and start again...

[Walt Caza]

Hi Jason,
Sorry for your frustration...
it is an oportunity to learn and improve for next time.
Some lessons can't be had any other way...
I do not know all of what you did, but I suspect it is not about any finishing product. It looks to me to be your surface prep.

My first try would be to do the entire top with a card scraper.
Do not sand it with any method. Get the surface all the same.
Then, before applying any kinda finish at all, wipe down the fresh surface
with maybe mineral spirits. This will help reveal what you can expect after
finish is applied, and leaves minimal if any residue.
This will let you know if you are ready to proceed.
Otherwise, keep scraping until test shows consistent porous wood.

Rather than strike a match, maybe put it to the back burner...
sometimes it does miracles to come back fresh another day.
Good luck with it,
Walt
:)

[Bryan Berguson]

Did you use a grain filler?

The nicest finish I've ever done was with wet/dry sand paper and Waterlox. Started with 220, then 400 and finally 1000. 220 SP & finish and wipe off. (This is my grain filler). Wipe on next coat with clean cotten. Do that with each grit. You'll know after the first coat if your problem still exist.

Bryan

[Doug Shepard]

What grit did you sand to? I'm kind of with Walt on this one, suspecting surface prep. It looks like a couple areas may be fuzzier than others and are absorbing the finish more and giving you the blotchies. Short of sanding it all back down and starting over, do you have a piece of walnut you could play with? I'm wondering if you tried a danish oil type finish and wet-sanded it on if you couldn't get it to take finish everywhere consistently?

[Todd Bin]

Jason, sorry to hear that even the Arm-R-Seal didn't work out. I guess I am with the others. Use a card scraper or spokeshave and scrape the surface down. (Although I am starting to get a little concerned about your inlay. That many sandings/scraping and the inlay is got to be getting pretty thin). Use the mineral spirts to see if you still see the splotches.

I am not sure if you did, but I always apply a coat of Seal-a-Cell before the Arm-R-Seal.

Good Luck. Maybe some expert finisher can help.

[Jason Scott]

Thanks guys, I just have a hard time believing surface prep, I started at 100 grit then 120/150/180 and finished with 220, it was baby butt smooth, heck it was perfect...I am worried that the waxed shellac finish I removed may be causing problems, but it is definately "blotchy", some areas shiny, some not, drives me crazy. I had the same "blotchiness" with the shellac in the begining, 5 refinishes ago :rolleyes: I just don't get this, I don't know why it will not take evenly, is this the way walnut does? I have never had this problem with other things I've built. I will take it all back down tomorrow and do the mineral spirits clean off and see what I have (that is if I am not still upset).

Can someone tell me the best way to apply this arm-r-seal? I have tried putting it on with a foam brush and wiping it on, neither seem to produce good results (but again that is probably b/c of some surface problem at this point) And no I did not use grain filler. It is funny, in some angles when you look at this top it is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen, the depth of the finish is absolutely breathtaking, but then it looks like this at other angles and that is just NOT acceptable to me, I'd rather throw it away honestly :(

[Jason Scott]

Hey Todd, yes I did do the seal-a-cell first, it looked the same way, blotchy. :mad:

[Denny Rice]

I know this can be a pain. Before I apply any stain, or before I even get into finish sanding I will take a damp cloth with luke water and wipe the entire project down and let it air dry (24-48 hrs) to raise the grain of the wood. I know from expierence that Maple will leave blothes that look just like that if you do not raise the grain of the lumber and if you just sand and apply finish the finish will not be even and leave spots on it. I suggest you re-sand to remove all traces of finish from the project wet entire project down, and re-stain. At this point whats it gonna hurt? Just a thought

[Walt Caza]

Hi again Jason,
This is going to sound confrontational, because it is typed.
I mean well, and am trying to help you...
but it could sound otherwise over the computer.
If we were standing in your shop, chitchatting, this might be easier
to swallow...

We tend to seek advice, when we know the answer, but wish we didn't...
at a glance, it is plain to see, that your prep work around the inlay,
differs from the surrounding wood. The resulting finish blotching is a
symptom of that inconsistency. The fibers have been treated differently.

It is pointless to argue your sandpaper progression.
How long is a piece of string? As long as it takes to get the job done.period
Imagine someone trying to argue the point of how much string they used,
to inadequately secure something. It doesn't matter...

I hear you when you say you do not believe it is your prep that is the problem. May I be so bold as to suggest that your inablilty to accept that,
is your problem this time?
I know it is hard to swallow, but that may be where the lesson lies.

I am not trying to get your goat. I am on your side.
Us vs. your table top. I feel It could be readily fixed.
Forcing the issue, after running out of patience with it, may not your strongest approach.
Protesting your 5 refinishes, may be a clue to inadequate method.
No fight, no animosity...
but the very definition of insantiy, is to do the same thing, and expect a different result.

Saying that you don't get it, after several experienced hands make suggestions, is a hint to where the problem persists. Sorry man.
You seem to think baby butt smooth is the goal of prep, but
may I suggest it is not? Consistent treatment of all continuous surfaces
is the goal, and the only way to achieve a consistent surface.
Forget products. It looks like you horsed the ROS around the inlay.

As we better learn wood, there can be a dawning of awarenenss
that sandpaper is not the be-all end-all of surface preparation.
There are alternatives, perhaps you could explore them?

This obstacle has value. Scrapping the project negates a chance at a
valuable lesson that can serve you well, moving forward.
Think of how all this would sound to a greybeard woodworker?
The mind is like a parachute...it can only work when it is open!
I hope you can resolve this,
it's just growing pains, and we all must persevere through them,
trying to help,
Walt
:)

hint: can you see what your own words are revealing?
"I just have a hard time believing"
"I just don't get this"
"I don't know why it will not take evenly"
"I have never had this problem"
"Can someone tell me"
"I'd rather throw it away"

[scott spencer]

Hi Jason - I don't have enough expertise to add anything to the great tidbits already given, but I'd like to encourage you NOT to scrap what looks like a potentially beautiful piece....it actually already looks pretty good to me as is, but I know the feeling you're experiencing. Scrapping it will ensure an exercise in futility and removes any potential...end of story. Sometimes it's best to retreat long enough to regroup....we've all been to this point and share the frustration of thinking we're in the home stretch when we're not. "Long enough" is an unknown....could be a day, could be a month, but coming back to it with renewed interest (and patience) should help you see things with new eyes, and will help relieve the frustration. Good luck and please post back with the finished heirloom!

[Mike Cutler]

Jason

Don't hit it with a match. You've done beautiful work so far. If you do nothing else, put it aside for a few months and then come back.

I agree with the others, it time to rethink the surface prep. Possibly the multiple finishes have somehow polluted the pores of the walnut, and what you are dealing with is the reaction of the differing finishes, especially that shellac. In actuality you are more "refinishing" than finishing at this point.

Acetone, Naptha, and Alcohol, and a bowl of water are the products I use prior to finishing to remove any contaminants that may exist on the surface of the wood. As I progress through the grits I use a combination of them to raise the grain and remove any oils my hands, or machines may have left on the wood, and to ensure that I remove all the wood dust on the surface, and in the pores of the wood to mitigate "bleeding".

I use the General Finishes products quite a bit. I use to think they were fool proof, but I've had some problems with them also. I've found that in high temperature/ high humidity conditions they can be a pain,and leave undesirable results. So now finishing is a fair weather job for me.
I've never had good luck with a foam brush using any finish. I think I'm too messy a person or something. I get finish everywhere with one. I'm a disaster with a brush. You should see me with paint.:eek:

My sequence for Seal-A-Cell,and Arm-R-Seal is as follows;

Flood coat of Seal-A-Cell applied with a white 3M sanding pad. I think the white pad is equivalent to 400 grit. Work the finish in and let it sit overnite.

I use the Norton sanding sponges, the red(220) on open pored wood, and the yellow(320) on tight grained woods and gently go over the surface to remove any "hairs" that have stood up, or any contaminants that may have floated to the surface.

I then apply the Arm-R-Seal with a lint free rag ( Old bedsheets, T-Shirts, and diapers are the best). The rag starts out approximately 12"x12" and I fold it over on itself until I have about a 2" tightly folded,square pad. I soak the pad in the Arm-R-Seal and use it like a combination brush/pad. Gentle back and forth motion with the grain and just a slight pressure.
In your post you refer to applying the finish with a paper towel. I would drop the paper towels for a few reasons. Paper towels contain chemicals left over from the manufacturing process, specifically bleaches, that may be adding to your problem. They are also slightly abrasive and will develop "edges" when wadded up or folded that could cause streaking.

I Let the finish sit overnite and then lightly go over it with a 320 sanding pad, and apply another coat of Arm-R-Seal. I may do this 3-4 times. I have had no luck using sandpaper between coats. The sanding sponges seem to conform to my hand and the surface of the wood better than sandpaper on a block.

I have found that no matter what the size of a project. The finishing phase for me is about a week. Very time consuming, and I have a tendency to rush. I slow way down now once I get to finishing.

[Greg Cole]

Hi Jason,
I've followed your table through the various posts... definately do not send this off to the burn pile. I'm not usually a "rah-rah" guy, but there are times when we all need to hear from a voice of clarity from the outside looking in, much like what's been offered above.
The dovetails, the inlay are firsts for you IIRC... it would be a shame to trash them.
IIRC I had a maple coffee table that gave me total fits in the same stage of finishing. Being a gift for my parents, I was much more hypercritical and wanted to achieve a finish beyond my means at the time. Yes, I believe I sanded that bloody thing at least 4 times including top coat removal. FWIW, Mission Style is a PITA to "re-re-re-refinish" too.:rolleyes:
I agree with Mike about not using paper towels unless it's for a sample board.
Once you've gotten a uniform surface & fiber structure... maybe it's time to look into spraying finishes. Another opportunity to expand the finishing skill set?

Cheers.
Greg

[Larry Fox]

I think Walt has hit it for you. I agree that it is a surface-prep issue. It is all around that inlay and around the inlay is where most of the work was done both to get it in there and to level it. No finish or method of application will address issues with improper / incomplete surface prep. I sense your frustration and I agree with others who have suggested putting it aside for a bit to regain some perspective and clarity - you and your project will both be better for it. Whatever you do don't put a match to it though.

[Walt Caza]

Hi Guys,
I am pleased to find no one freaked out with my posting.
Mike Cutler and I had a recent conversation about the difficulty of
online communication. He said he often types up posts, but decides not
to send them.
I pointed my cursor at cancel on that risky post a few times.
I ended up sending it, bracing for the splash it might cause...
I am glad we can toss different ideas around without anyone getting
defensive. It does not always play out that way in online forums.
I really hope to help Jason.
I sent him a private message to that effect.

The thing is, all lessons cost. He has already paid full price on these lessons. To scrap it, would be to miss any payoff...
and risk having to suffer these learning opportunities again.
Not to mention, overcoming obstacles can pay greater satisfaction.
I believe he can end up proud of this table,
and hope he comes back to it fresh, and solves it.

I suspect an old pro could fix it in under an hour with a scraper.
The great thing about life, is that if we miss our lessons, we will
probably get chances to learn them again.
I am not better or smarter than anyone, this is just how I see it.
good luck Jason,
Walt
:)

[Howard Acheson]

Jason, while it's impossible to diagnose many finishing problems without actually seeing the problem, I would suspect surface preparation as at least part of the problem.

Is it only the area around the inlay where you see the problem? One of my first thoughts was that it looks like glue contamination. Walnut is a quite open pored wood and glue gets down really deep. And, there's no good way to remove it without very aggressive sanding.

In the shop I was involved with, the guy who did or inlays always put a coat of shellac on the surface before he cut out the inlay. Then any adhesive could be wiped off and then sanded without it soaking into the wood.

[Chris Merriam]

I was finishing the top of my console entertainment center and noticed some of the same lines you are getting across the stem of your inlay leaf. They look like planer ridges (even though you can't feel them). They almost look like shiny areas, like the wood has been buffed to a shine, but they blur the grain a bit.

I had also sanded the top until it was totally smooth. I even went back to 80 grit a second time to work on them. Eventually I switched to a card scraper and a lot of elbow grease to get rid of them. I got most of them but got tired and left a few towards the back of the table.

[Prashun Patel]

If it were me, I'd sand it all off again. Then I'd rub it down with mineral spirits. If you get blotches, dry it and resand. Keep going until you like it wet. The mineral spirits will presage how it'll look finished.

I've also found that the first few coats of the topcoat can look bad. Once the wood's fully sealed and you start to build is when you really see it look nice.

Also, I'd definitely try yr hand at a good china brush. It'll flow much better and w/o bubbles than a foam brush. If yr leery about brushing too thick, thin yr poly.

Perhaps the best pc of advice, though, is to start from scratch on a test piece. This newbie learned that the best way to achieve a good finish is to have a lot of patience and to validate the schedule on a test pc.

FWIW, the table is otherwise quite beautiful

[Todd Bin]

You learn something new everyday. Next time I do an inlay I will definitly be using the shellac trick. You know the old saying -- "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

[Prashun Patel]

"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

I think it's "A 3 pound cut worth of shellac takes only a weencie bit of time to cure"

[John Michaels]

My suggestion would be to take it to a cabinetmaker and have them run it through the drum sander (unless you have one). That way the surface will be flat and consistent. Then use your ROS starting with 120 grit then progress to 220. Wet the entire surface and let dry for a day. Resand starting with 180 and work up to 320. Vaccuum dust from surface and then wipe down with acetone. Then start the finish process.

[Jason Scott]

Hey guys,

Sorry it has been so long, I was reading all your posts since I "took a break". I haven't been down in the shop in months, I was just burned out with the table. It was sad actually I took the table back down in the shop started scraping the top and then just quit, I was frustrated and it wasn't fun anymore so I turned the lights out and and shut the door on my shop. Well a few days ago I got back down there, pulled the table out of the corner, cleaned off the cobwebs and spiders and started scrapping and sanding again.

First, Walt, no offense taken and thank you for caring so much about possibly affecting my feelings. I have come to the point after reading your posts that surface prep very well could be the answer. I never used mineral spirits or anything to clean the wood prior to finishing, I guess I always thought you sanded contaminants out, but now I realize that maybe I was sanding them in.

So I have since this week applied 1 coat of Arm r seal sealer and one coat of the gloss. The table looks nice again, not perfect yet, but nice. I did not wipe it with mineral spirits again as I did not read this post prior to getting back to work on it. I am going to apply a few more coats of gloss and see what happens. Either way I am done with the project and on to other things with the lessons I have learned. Any chance this could have been caused just because the walnut was air dried or something? Anyway I'll post pics when I get the finish back up to snuff, I doubt it will be perfect, but then I guess with wood that is a moot point anyway.

[Steve Schoene]

I'll just throw in a few suggestions, basically for next time. When a finish has to be removed to start over, standing it down is not the best way, and can lead to uneven absorption. A stripper is the way to do that.

It isn't all that uncommon for the first couple of coats to take unevenly on the wood. That's one reason why we sand between coats. The causes can be many, but as long as the finish is drying normally, the solution is pretty much the same. Sand it as smooth and level (this is HAND SANDING ONLY with a sanding blocki) as you can without cutting through to the stain. Eventually, you will be able to sand the surface level without cutting through. You will have sanded off a lot of fnish, leaving you with only about a coat on the surface, even if it has taken four coats to get there.

You talk about one coat of Arm-R-Seal and one coat of Gloss. But wipe on finishes go on very thin. It takes about three coats of a wipe on finish to be equivalent to one coat of brushed on varnish. For a table top, I would not be at all surprised to have to use three brushed on coats, to get level and even. That means about 9 coats of wiped on finish on the top, perhaps 6 on the legs. Two or three wiped on coats isn't likely to be enough to coat evenly. I think you may be expecting good results too soon.

The best way to apply a wipe on varnish is is "sets" of about 3 coats per day, spaced just so the preceeding coat is no longer tacky to a light finger press. These don't needed sanding between, but after three coats it is important to stop and let them cure overnight. If there has been overnight or longer cure time, then it is best to sand before applying the next coat.

I would also quibble with the choice of Arm-R-Seal. It's an OK polyurethane varnish thinned for wiping. Polyturethane varnish are more picky as far as adhesion than alkyd or phenolic resin varnishes. Waterlox is the superior product, particulary if there is any question about what remains on the surface. You can also thin a good varnish to wiping consistency. Varnishes that would work well are: Behlen Rockhard, (darkish); Pratt and Lambert 38, McCloskey Heirloom (if still around) or its replacement, Cabot Varnish (Not polyurethane), both of which are lighter colored.

[Jason Scott]

Point taken, I will put on a lot more coats and see thanks.

[Jason Scott]

Just an update, with the second coat of arm r seal gloss it looks a lot better but still kinda streaky so I am hoping more coats takes care of it. I am using a brown paper bag between coats to get the nibs out and it seems to work really well, it does not leave any scratches and I don't believe I am taking any finish off with it, or at least it doesn't appear that way. I'll be putting on at least 2 more gloss coats before I make a decision on the outcome. :confused: I took a picture below of it, I had to take it with the flash off (sorry about the darkeness) but it was the only way I could show the steakyness I am talking about. This is the way the finish has gone one, even from the very first time with the shellac, this is now arm r seal. It certain lights/angles the finish is breathtaking, no joke, deep and lustrous, but if you look at it from a reflection standpoint with a lightsource like in the pic, this is how it appears. Now I feel like rubbing it down with high grit paper will help some of this, at least smooth it a little, but the overall effect will still remain. Maybe with 2 or more coats it will eventually look completely uniform. Anyway the reason I took this angle with the flash off is b/c I wanted to show you the worst of it, if I just took a picture at any other angle or even with a flash it would look perfect. Let me know your thoughts.

***Edit*** I decided to take a few more photos to show you how beautiful it can look too, these are from different angles with the flash on, I mean it looks gorgeous and flawless, but from other angles it doesn't, see my delima? And notice the reflection of the DVD, I am just in love with that picture, and from 80% of all angles you view the table from it looks that way, but then in the right light, whamo! I don't know. :(