Is there really any need for a radial arm saw?

[Jerry McFalls]

I have the DW718 sliding compound miter saw seen here http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=9793 (http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=9793) and have been debating whether I would have any need for a radial arm since the miter saw slides and will cut up to 2 x 16 dimensional lumber at 90° and 2 x 12 at 45°. I use my shop for whatever comes along and want to be able to attack any project without coming up short on equipment.

Opinions welcome. :)

[Simon Dupay]

I say keep it. A RAS can use a dado head make blind crosscuts if you have the room keep it.

[Pete Kurki]

I agree with Simon. I have an 1971 model Craftsman RAS, and it gets 80% of its use for cutting lap joints in 2x4 and such (Norm style). It won't be the tool that gets most hours in your shop, but if you have room for it, some cuts will easier with RAS that blind with table saw.
Pete

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'm going to have one someday just for dados!

[Paul Girouard]

Crab pot anchor :D

[jack duren]

I use mine every cabinet job. Square smaller door panels, drawer fronts, make dentil molding,etc....

[jerry nazard]

I would probably have sold mine several years ago to gain some space, but the market for a used RAS in this area definitely belongs to the buyer. My Delta is set up for dead-on 90~ crosscuts and the occasional dado. I find myself using it frequently.

[Matt Hutchinson]

From the looks of the miter saw you have, I am not sure an RAS is needed. I just purchased an RAS, but that's because I didn't already have a sliding compound miter saw, and it was a purchase of opportunity. What the others have said is true, having a dedicated crosscutting/dadoing machine might be nice, but I don't know if it's worth the floor space. I think a lot of it has to do with the type of work you do. If you only occasionally make half laps or dentilated trim, then use your table saw. Plus, many people express nervousness when using an RAS for certain operations, so some of your decision might be based on comfort level with the machine.

Hutch

[Ron Bontz]

Keep it. Once upon a time I had a RAS. I used it for dados, dental molding, spindle sanding, etc. I did not think I would need it after I acquired my DW708. Now I regret selling it.

[Mike Heidrick]

The 708 is awesome in its own right!

I had the electronic Sears one. Sold it for my 12" Hitcahi SCMS. Some day I will own an older big 12" or 14" Delta RAS. This way I can upgrade my RAS overtime.

[J. Z. Guest]

With a little patience, one can get a nice used RAS for less than half the price of a new SCMS, and it is much more versatile. (dados in long pieces, for example)

To me, the only advantage of a SCMS is its portability. It was designed for tradesmen, not woodworkers.

In a WW shop that doesn't need to be portable, I'd go RAS all the way.

[Rob Russell]

With a little patience, one can get a nice used RAS for less than half the price of a new SCMS, and it is much more versatile. (dados in long pieces, for example)

To me, the only advantage of a SCMS is its portability. It was designed for tradesmen, not woodworkers.

In a WW shop that doesn't need to be portable, I'd go RAS all the way.

Wel, I have both ... and have used the SCMS more. The SCMS is way more accurate when changing head position.

Having said that - I did pick up a big, old Rockwell 16" RAS a couple of years ago. It's not hooked up yet (long story), but it has up to 24" crosscut capability. I expect it would be "repeatable" in terms of resetting the head and arm to 90 degrees. Replacing that saw with a current production model would be several thousand dollars.

The DeWalt (rebadged Black & Decker, not a "real" DeWalt) that I have is annoying to use. It can really only be used for rough cutting stuff to length - nothing really accurate. It's OK for making picnic tables where some slop is OK and you're just working with pressure-treated 2x4's.

[Ben Cadotte]

I have both, with the exception of a 10" scms. I tend to use the Radial arm saw more since I got it about 7 months ago. I happen to be doing more shop type projects. And the radial arm cant be beat for lap joints. I have it dead on at 90 and do the majority of cross cuts on it. Since getting the RAS I have moved the SCMS into the house for work in there. I got a new one, but waited for multiple deals to hit at the same time. Ended up getting about 1/3 off. So for the money I am very happy with it.

[Frank Drew]

I've never owned a RAS and never regretted the lack of one. In my experience, a good table saw with a sliding table is the best option, being able to handle all your ripping, crosscutting, dadoing (etc.) needs.

Not cheap, of course, but IMO you've got to have a table saw anyway, and a sliding table version doesn't ridiculously increase the footprint.

Even before I got the slider, I did all my crosscutting and dadoing on my previous table saw with the mitre guide or sled.

[Peter Quinn]

The answer is complicated. It depends on what type of work you do and which saw. The other day I was at my Dad's house working on his house in his shop, using his 80's era craftsman RAS. Scary piece of junk at best, I'd rather use my skill saw, wish I'd brought my slider. Ditto Crab boat anchor.

Like a few others my RAS is large, a 1949 Dewalt GR 16" (I run a 14" blade) with a 24" cross cut. A similar model new from Original saw will cost you $4000. Have you ever tried cutting 12/4 white oak to rough length in preparation for milling on a SCMS? Not cute. Those things are made for crown and trim (finished goods) and buck like an angry mule when put to rough stock. I have used the Dewalt 12" SCMS, and many of the things I do effortlessly with my RAS would either be impossible or kill it quickly.

I NEVER move my RAS off the 90 degree mark. I use my SCMS for all miters in trim and molding/cabinet work, or the TS for smaller or much larger pieces. If you can get a serious solid RAS and your work requires it than you will appreciate its value. Other wise I wouldn't bother.

I have a carpenter friend who made fun of my RAS for months to the effect of "Why have that boat anchor taking up so much space when my slider does the same job?" First time we did a job together using lots of rough stock he saw the light. "WOW" was all he could say. I told him, "I'm gonna switch blades, then you put your flimsy slider up here on the table and I'll show you how quick a real MACHINE can take it apart!" A good RAS is heavy machinery, a slider is an over grown hand tool. Not the same thing at all.

There's room for both in my shop and my work.

[Jerry McFalls]

Thanks for all your posts. You guys bring out a lot of good points I hadn't really thought about. I've changed my mind about the RAS and will be buying one whenever a good deal and my Pepsi-Cola pocket book allow. :)

[Will Blick]

Many people mention RAS for dados? What is the advantage of RAS for Dados over a TS? Seems way safer on a TS, easier to fence and clamp down the work...and pass the material through the blade...right?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

When I can see the cut, I'm less likely to make a mistake.

I don't have a RAS yet but I will have just for dados.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have the DW718 sliding compound miter saw seen here http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=9793 (http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=9793) and have been debating whether I would have any need for a radial arm since the miter saw slides and will cut up to 2 x 16 dimensional lumber at 90° and 2 x 12 at 45°. I use my shop for whatever comes along and want to be able to attack any project without coming up short on equipment.

Opinions welcome. :)

With that saw...unless you need a dado machine...you won't need the RAS.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

What I like the most is that an RAS has a quiet induction motor that you can keep running while cutting a lot of repeat parts. For example, cutting stile and rail parts to length, or faceframes. Lesser noise means that it's much easier on the nerves versus a SCMS or CMS.

An RAS is also nice to rough cut long boards to length quickly. It's also convenient for dado cuts and half lap joints as noted earlier in this thread.

The downside is that the machine can take up valuable space when other machines can do these operations albeit less convenient. There are solutions however (see CAD pic below for my setup) where the miter saw can share the same tabletop as the radial arm saw. In fact, they can use the same fence stop system.

Also, there are too many cheap RAS units made by Sears (like mine) that give this type of tool a bad name. In addition, there is just too high of an expectation from this type of machine since the cutter head has a high degree of articulation. Even though the machine can be configured for many versatile operations, it doesn't mean that they are safe and accurate in my opinion. It's definately not for ripping operations, nor horizontal molding operations, as the manufacturer's advertising often touts.

-Jeff :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/3800x640.jpg

[Matt Hutchinson]

Many people are not comfortable with certain operations on an RAS, especially ripping. Fair enough. But that doesn't mean it isn't safe. A table saw is just as dangerous, especially if the blade and fence are not quite parallel. If an RAS is set up properly, and you use it properly, it is no less safe than a TS. Granted, a TS is more convenient in most cases, and safety accessories are much easier to come by.

That being said, I know most within the woodworking community are split on their feelings about radial arm saws. Many will only use them for crosscutting and nothing else, whereas those like myself have successfully and confidently done all types of operations on them. I don't mind if people think that ripping on them is scary, or think that they are wasted floor space and/or inconvenient. But they are a safe tool. You have to have the right blade, and a well set up machine, but they are as unsafe as any other tool. ;)

But to the point just made, there are a number of lower end machines that are a little scary, and they do give radial arm saws a bad name. Good radial arm saw are worth having, in my opinion.

Hutch

[John Bouthiette]

I have my Dad's 40 year old radial arm saw since he passed away a number of years ago... When he got it he got rid of his table saw and used the RAS exclusively for many years. I have had a table saw for about 30 years and have had an SCMS as well, but the RAS is extremely useful for dadoes as many have pointed out and I tend to use it for cross cutting wide boards as it has good stability.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Matt...My cheap RAS has so much wobble in the head carridge from new that it would be the equivalent of having a wobbly fence on a tablesaw. That, to me, is a recipe for kickback and disaster. Even my inexpensive contractor style tablesaw from Sears was noticeably more stable and safe.

However, perhaps a good qualilty, old fashion cast iron, RAS is the real answer as you stated. Never had the joy of using a decent RAS. If I did it again, it would be used and/or rebuilt iron. Anyway, I'm on a Sears diet these days.

-Jeff :)

[Mark Kosmowski]

I wonder if many of the negative opinions about the RAS are based off of the inferior quality machines out there. Kind of like saying tablesaws are dangerous and unsafe for sheet goods because the only tablesaws you've experienced are benchtop models.

I'm very happy with my Delta 12" turret model RAS. I don't think I'd happy with any other RAS. Maybe not even a bigger Delta as then the arbor goes to 1" (the 12" Delta uses a 5/8" arbor).

Between my RAS, bandsaw and circular saw guide system I see no need for a tablesaw in my shop. Which is good because I don't have the space or the cash for one. I will admit that you need to get up to a new pricing of $1,500 or so before tablesaws and RAS can be compared in terms of quality. Below that price point, a new tablesaw is likely to be safer and better quality than a new RAS. I bought my Delta RAS used at a fair price and don't regret a penny of it.

As far as operating either of them - I'm more nervous about tablesaws than my RAS. I believe that either minor operator error or unexpected wood behavior is more likely to cause injury on a tablesaw than a RAS provided that the tools were properly set up and were being properly used in the first place. The key to using any power tool safely is prior proper planning.

Jeff - if you make it through central NY give me a holler and you can play with my Delta RAS. If I get enough forewarning I'll even try to get the shop cleaned up! lol

[Dino Makropoulos]

Some food for thought and something to remember.

The radial arm saw works like a circular saw...cutting backwards? :confused:

[Matt Hutchinson]

Well, radial arm saws do make climb cuts, and there is real chance a blade will dig its way forward and ruin the piece. But a good blade and slow steady pull stroke all but eliminate this problem. There is a basic level of technique involved, though easily mastered within a few cuts.

However, any circular saw I have ever used is not a climb cut. The blade is rotating in a way identical to a table saw, just upside down and hand held.

And yes, I feel that the cheap radial arm saws do not quite give me the comfort level that I have with a table saw. I have a cheap RAS, and it has gotten me by, but it's sketchy. I also just bought a big 14" Delta/Rockwell, and I can't wait to get it up and running. I still need a phase converter, but even the action of the moving parts is in an entirely different class.

Anyway, to restore focus to the original thread, I think a SMCS is adequate for most all your needs. Only if you happened upon a great deal would I concern myself with adding a RAS to your shop. Unless, of course, you have enough disposable income and floor space.

Hutch

P.S. Yes, I know I am sorta sending mixed messages. But if I already had a SCMS, then I wouldn't have bought the industrial RAS.

[Mark Kosmowski]

Well, radial arm saws do make climb cuts, and there is real chance a blade will dig its way forward and ruin the piece. But a good blade and slow steady pull stroke all but eliminate this problem. There is a basic level of technique involved, though easily mastered within a few cuts.

However, any circular saw I have ever used is not a climb cut. The blade is rotating in a way identical to a table saw, just upside down and hand held.

And yes, I feel that the cheap radial arm saws do not quite give me the comfort level that I have with a table saw. I have a cheap RAS, and it has gotten me by, but it's sketchy. I also just bought a big 14" Delta/Rockwell, and I can't wait to get it up and running. I still need a phase converter, but even the action of the moving parts is in an entirely different class.

Anyway, to restore focus to the original thread, I think a SMCS is adequate for most all your needs. Only if you happened upon a great deal would I concern myself with adding a RAS to your shop. Unless, of course, you have enough disposable income and floor space.

Hutch

P.S. Yes, I know I am sorta sending mixed messages. But if I already had a SCMS, then I wouldn't have bought the industrial RAS.

When I hog out large chunks for tenons or dadoes (think a roof purlin sized dado - not even sure if dado is the correct word), I'll often use a push cut to not be climbing. For crosscutting, I don't experience much climbing desire until around 15 degrees positive hook (of the teeth on the blade). It is possible to use a push cut for crosscutting on a RAS - I believe this is the European method. Blade heeling needs to be perfect for this or the top side of the cut may see bad tearout. Ripping is never to be done climb cutting on the RAS.

The RAS is one of the few tools I bought for a specific project rather than generally to have around. I needed to make a bunch of 60 degree miters. The cost of a new miter saw with this capability came very close to the price of the used RAS, so I spent the little extra for more versatility. I've since been able to make the occaisional 70 - 80 degree miter (this was a little tricky with the 2 by 4s I was cutting for a friend - there was just barely clearance to finish the cut and I would clamp the stock to the fence, then lower the blade (plunge cut) down into the wood while the blade was clamped stationary, then I'd release the blade and pull to make the cut - sounds worse than it was - took a bit of time but went safely with no incidents). I have a three piece tabletop - the fence moves forward for miters of angles greater than about 35 degrees.

I've also used my RAS to cut a rectangle inside of an aluminum sheet using this same plunge cutting method. The aluminum was thoroughly clamped and it was small enough so that all 4 sides were cut using crosscut mode. I imagine an aluminum kickback on a tablesaw could be less than pleasant - also I think plunge cutting on the TS is not a good idea. On the other hand, this project was a dust shroud for the RAS - probably wouldn't have needed to do this if I didn't have the RAS in the first place. :confused:

Unless you find yourself needing miters of greater angle than your SCMS can do (and for these a turret style saw like my Delta 33-890 is very helpful) or want a visible dado cutting ability, I have to agree with Matt that an RAS is not needed. If you do get one, get a good one. I feel like a Delta salesman here. :p

Good luck with everything and stay safe!

[Dan Bussiere]

I just never use my RAS. My 12 inch miter does what I need a RAS for. My RAS isn't even in the shop anymore. It's stuck out of the way in the garage. No body would even buy it cheap at my yard sale even though it's fairly new and in good shape......:(

[Pete Harbin]

Just sold mine on Craig's List yesterday. I don't think I've made a cut on it in over three years. I have however, stacked lots of stuff on the table.

In my case I was happy to reclaim some valuable floor space and pad the future, big bandsaw fund.

Pete