lightning damage

[Richard Savidge]

Hi all,

The other evening as storms rolled through lightning struck close to the house and I heard a pop from the laser room. When I turn the laser on it tries to raise the bed until it jams at the top. I have lowered the bed by hand a couple of times and it does the same thing each time. It doesn't make any of the usual beeping sounds when starting up and there is nothing on the screen but black boxes. The first 2 lights, out of 4, on the controller board are on, the last 2 are not. I called tech support and they said I needed a new controller board ($995 ouch!).

My brother, who services electronic organs, is coming up to take a look at it tonight after work. Does anyone have, or can direct me to, schematics for the machine and/or the controller board? Has anyone had a similar problem? Can you tell us what to look for? I suspect the surge may have come in through the network cable from the wifi connection. It is a 35w Epilog Helix.

Any help would be appreciated before I have to drop a thousand bucks on a new board.

Thanks

[Darren Null]

Any damage is going to be an EMP/overvoltage through a wire leading into the machine. If everything was switched on at the time, then it could have come in either through the computer or through the power socket. If everything was switched off at the time, the power socket is the more likely culprit.
This sort of rapid power fluctuation is very hard on electronics, and chances are that you're going to have to spring for a new board. If you have a *very competent* electronics repair shop in town, it might well be worth taking the board in there to see if there are any blown cheaper components on it. Chances are, though, it's the chip that's gone and that'll require replacement. Check every fuse on the machine before spending money.

There may well be a schematic here:
http://www.epilogfiles.com/mini_helix_manual.pdf

[Bruce Volden]

Richard

Sorry to hear that, can't offer any help either. I can relate to lightning strikes, I had one occur a couple years back!! Killed a couple of TV's, a couple of computers and the phone. Total damages were right at $995, lucky me, I had $1000 deductible on the insurance end of things :mad:

Bruce

[Brian Robison]

My TV's, Radio's, all appliances stay plugged in all the time. My laser and my laptop get unplugged at the first sign of a storm!!!!! Don't ever think one of those power strips will protect you. Lightning just came from several thousand feet in the air, it don't care diddly about no power strip!
Richard, check your insurance policy, maybe your covered? Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

[Frank Corker]

I think they are probably right that it's the board. I was hit last month by a lightning spike, on my computer it blew the motherboard, the processor and the main hard drive (triple whammy!). This is despite having surge protectors! A late bit of information passed to me is that sometimes a spike can avoid the protectors but still cause the damage. It is also possible that my damage may have come down the internet connection.

Best advice:

IF THERE IS A LIGHTNING STORM, TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTERS AND LASERS AND GO AS FAR AS UNPLUGING ALL OF THEM INCLUDING YOUR MODEM.

[Sean Bullock]

Excellent advice, all!

With monsoon season just around the corner here in Tucson I will be taking no chances with the surge protector. I always unplug all computers and lasers.

Several years ago my parents house was struck and damaged the foundation at the point of contact.

[James Stokes]

I got taken out by lightening about 8 years ago took out every piece of electronic equipment I had.

[David Brasfield]

Sorry to hear about the damage.

We have been struck 5 times, and hit by two tornados :)

Four of the strikes hit our business, which was basically a "server farm" and internet connectivity.

The first strike did over $5k, the 3rd took out about 30% of the equipment, and our 60KW generator. That bill was many thousands of dollars. The last one took out a few computers, $2,500 in stereo equipment, and got the generator again ($5k just for the generator parts).

Here is the part that a lot of people don't get, a surge protector can help with SOME lower energy spikes on the mains. What you pay for is insurance. A surge protector simply can't protect you from a nearby strike, much less a direct one. The last strike came in ON THE GROUND CONDUCTOR. Really. There is nothing you can do about that except replace all the blown up stuff. That included every surge protector and UPS we owned.

For you electrically inclined folks, the only equipment saved was fused on both hot and neutral legs. In all cases, both fuses blew, and left the ground without a path. It's legal, and I see more and more manufacturers doing it.

If you want to be reasonably safe, unplug the electronics from EVERYTHING, even the wall outlet.

Lightning strikes can produce HUGE differences in potential between ground fields. Just because it is grounded, does not make it protected.

The last strike hit a neighbor's tree that was close to his driveway, it fingered out to the rebar in the concrete of his driveway, then made its way into a buried phone cable. 600 pair of copper wires, a fiber optic bundle (which contains a steel jacket for strength) and into the back of our old business telecom room. There was nothing back there but empty connections. It left a trail of soot as it traveled around the empty room. It is a wonder that it didn't burn us down.

After that, I had the phone company come and dig up the cable 75 to 100 feet from our structures. I made sure there were no grounds between us.

The rule of thumb is simple. If you can afford to lose it, then leave it connected during a storm. Otherwise, find something else to do for a while until the storm is past :)

1) The first photo is the base of the carbonized tree...
2) The second is the "finger" trails.
3) The third is the blown concrete. I wish I could have gotten a picture before he put the concrete pieces back in the holes that blew outward.

All the best,
David

[Richard Savidge]

Thanks everyone. Looks like a new board is unavoidable. Like Frank said, I believe my surge came in through my wifi internet connection. It's an expensive lesson to learn to disconnect that as well as the electrical. At this point I hope the board is the only thing I have to replace.

Thanks again.

[Wil Lambert]

Your best bet for the future is to invest in a whole shop/ house surge suppressor. You can get units in single or 3 phase depending on what you need. I put them in my house and shop. Does wonders for everything. I think I paid $200 for the home unit and $400 for the 3ph unit for the shop. Hooks right into the panel and protect the whole place. We had a main transformer blow outside the building earlier this year. It blew the main fuses in the substation of the building and surged everyone in the building. Most businesses had problems. We were the only business that did not because of the surge units. I highly recommend them.

Wil

[David Brasfield]

Your best bet for the future is to invest in a whole shop/ house surge suppressor. You can get units in single or 3 phase depending on what you need. I put them in my house and shop. Does wonders for everything. I think I paid $200 for the home unit and $400 for the 3ph unit for the shop. Hooks right into the panel and protect the whole place. We had a main transformer blow outside the building earlier this year. It blew the main fuses in the substation of the building and surged everyone in the building. Most businesses had problems. We were the only business that did not because of the surge units. I highly recommend them.

Wil

The local utility company won't install them here any longer. I wish they would. I think the cost of replacement from poles getting struck was eating up whatever profit they were making from it. I researched some aftermarket stuff a year or so back, but didn't find anything I thought would work very well.

I am glad you are having better success with yours.

I think I made our problem worse (especially when bell had all the connections here) because my solution to the problem was to improve the ground field every time we got struck. I think we eventually became the lowest impedance ground for the area. Since we got disconnected from bell's infrastructure, we haven't suffered any major damage. We routinely have strikes less than 150 feet away.

David

[Wil Lambert]

The local utility company won't install them here any longer. I wish they would. I think the cost of replacement from poles getting struck was eating up whatever profit they were making from it. I researched some aftermarket stuff a year or so back, but didn't find anything I thought would work very well.

I am glad you are having better success with yours.

I think I made our problem worse (especially when bell had all the connections here) because my solution to the problem was to improve the ground field every time we got struck. I think we eventually became the lowest impedance ground for the area. Since we got disconnected from bell's infrastructure, we haven't suffered any major damage. We routinely have strikes less than 150 feet away.

David

All my units are aftermarket. The are made by Eaton. Our elec company does not install them. I had a local electrician
install them for me.

Wil

[Rob Bosworth]

A few years ago we were having a party. After dinner we were doing cleanup, and found that the water heater must have blown out during the storm that was raging outside. SO I ran downstairs to re-light the water heater. I was laying on the ground, pushing the "pilot" valve down, when a bolt hit in the woods next to our house. The surge must have come through the water pipe to the house. It blew me across the basement, slammed me against a wall 20 ft. away, and left me tingling all over. It took me a few minutes to collect myself. When I arrived upstairs, I must have been a site. All my hair was standing on end. I was still a little wobbly. That lightning strike, which I assume came in through the water pipe, took out TV's, stereos, phones, PCs, monitors, and me. Luckily, I have a pretty low deductible on me! The only things that did not get taken out were the lasers in the shop. That service comes in from the other side of things. None of my surge protection devices did a thing. From what I hear, unless it is a very high end surge protection device, that a lightning strike is so powerful and so quick, it usually beats the shut down capabilities of these devices.

[David Brasfield]

All my units are aftermarket. The are made by Eaton. Our elec company does not install them. I had a local electrician
install them for me.

Wil

I looked at the Eaton units. I don't remember what soured me to them, just that something did.

I will have another look though. Maybe I missed something.

Thanks for the reply.

David

[David Brasfield]

A few years ago we were having a party. After dinner we were doing cleanup, and found that the water heater must have blown out during the storm that was raging outside. SO I ran downstairs to re-light the water heater. I was laying on the ground, pushing the "pilot" valve down, when a bolt hit in the woods next to our house. The surge must have come through the water pipe to the house. It blew me across the basement, slammed me against a wall 20 ft. away, and left me tingling all over. It took me a few minutes to collect myself. When I arrived upstairs, I must have been a site. All my hair was standing on end. I was still a little wobbly. That lightning strike, which I assume came in through the water pipe, took out TV's, stereos, phones, PCs, monitors, and me. Luckily, I have a pretty low deductible on me! The only things that did not get taken out were the lasers in the shop. That service comes in from the other side of things. None of my surge protection devices did a thing. From what I hear, unless it is a very high end surge protection device, that a lightning strike is so powerful and so quick, it usually beats the shut down capabilities of these devices.

Nothing will protect you from a direct strike, but it does sound like you suffered from a "ground" (not dirt) strike. Possibly the best path was through the gas line. I have seen lightning strike THE GROUND less than 15 feet from a metal 50 foot flag pole :). There has been a lot of research done in the past 10 years on lightning. Interesting stuff.

David

[David Brasfield]

All my units are aftermarket. The are made by Eaton. Our elec company does not install them. I had a local electrician
install them for me.

Wil

Hi, Wil.

I may consider the product with the updates. At the time I looked at it, I didn't consider it adequate for our needs.

Here is the regulatory http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@ee/documents/content/td01005001e.pdf change effective Feb 2007

David

[Darren Null]

Surge protectors are a waste of time, generally. Unless you're paying industrial money for a military spec one. Our local electricity company accidentally fed 440V triple phase into our domestic circuit a couple of years ago. For two hours. The bloody muppets. Needless to say, it took the whole street out.
Those with surge protectors suffered no less than those without. My next-door neighbor had a 1000 euro whole-house one that failed to kick in for some reason. I had everything important protected with quite expensive between-socket-and-appliance ones. The problem with the whole concept of surge protectors for very high or sustained high load is that *the resultant bubbling slag is CONDUCTIVE*.
The only things that survived in the whole street were laptops and those items protected by UPS systems, and both for the same reason. The UPS systems and the laptop power packs blow up before the appliance is damaged. There was one laptop on the street where the batteries blew up (the laptop survived, but didn't look very nice afterwards), but that was because it was an old one and the power pack was quite a robust one. With modern laptops, this shouldn't be a factor.

So. I would recommend UPS systems, rather than surge protectors. A UPS system is a system that uses mains current to charge a battery. From the battery, the voltage is stepped up to regular house voltage, thus smoothing out the power (and incidentally giving you a few minutes to save your work and shut your computer down in the case of a power cut). They're considerably more expensive than a comparable surge protector, but from my experience a lot of surge protectors are 'smoke & mirror' vapourware that you can only find out if it's any good when it's too late.

EDIT: Oh yeah, with computers, it's quite possible that they're connected to both the power grid and the phone grid- either one of which can be subject to a lightning strike. No point whatsoever protecting one and not the other.

[Mark Kosmowski]

Darren beat me to it - will a UPS / voltage regulator help? Would the battery fry leaving the downstream electronics unscathed?

Also, this thread has given me a reason to consider making all of my internet connections wireless.

[John Noell]

I have seen computers with blown Ethernet ports (and blown motherboards) from lightning where the only thing left unplugged from the computer during the storm was the network cable. Same for telephone wires into dial-up modems - had a couple of blown internal modems in laptops because surge went up telephone line.

[Darren Null]

will a UPS / voltage regulator help? Would the battery fry leaving the downstream electronics unscathed?
I wouldn't say it's absolutely 110% foolproof, as nothing is. Your odds are a great deal better though. In addition to the fuses, there are 3 components to a UPS- the converting down & battery-charging circuit; the battery; and the converting-up circuit...and the surge/EMP has to get through all 3 components before it even touches your house circuit.

Consider also, that a step-down transformer is an inductance effect and there isn't a direct connection there. As you're stepping down, there will be many turns of thinner wire coming from the coil which will act like a fuse on it's own; over and above the fuses built into the UPS.

A word of caution; particularly if you live in an area prone to lightning: be careful where you site the UPS...if it's the battery that goes then an acid explosion could possibly occur. Just bear it in mind.

It's not really scientific as I only really have the one street-worth of data to go on; but 100% failure for anti-surge devices, 100% survival for kit protected with UPS systems (but there were only 3 in the street). Of the UPS systems, themselves, all were toast. All of the laptops survived (but only sort of in the case of the old one) with only surge protectors, if that. In my UPS system, it was the step-down circuit that went. Lucky really, it was in the lounge, so an acid explosion would have been nasty. I've given some thought to it since...

Also, it wasn't lightning- for all I know lightning could arc straight between the input and output if it comes in fast and hard enough. Probably not though. lightning is looking for an easy route to earth. You can definitely improve your odds still further by providing one near to your UPS installation. Anything to do with lightning is just odds and chances. There's no way you can predict with confidence what it's going to do. And even if you spend grillions of dollars bombproofing yourself, you can still get an inductance EMP from a nearby strike that can effect anything plugged in.

[David Brasfield]

Also, it wasn't lightning- for all I know lightning could arc straight between the input and output if it comes in fast and hard enough.

I completely agree with you on the UPSs, Darren. We had an experience with 660 volts for about 10 minutes complements of a miss-tapped transformer. Everything but the UPS's and their downstream devices fried. Even the 24 volt doorbell transformer :)

Lightning is a different animal. The strike I showed pictures of took out several 2200 VA UPSs, but here is the weird part. Three 10/100 24 port Cisco switches were popped, but not a single ethernet port on a computer was lost.

Out of all of it, the part I hated the most about the near/direct strikes was the damage to the generator. The company that produced it is no longer in business. The generator is a special order PM gen set (fortunately that company is still in business) because I needed stable frequency more than stable voltage (UPS's +/- 3hz). That also meant special electronics, controls, and mains switch. All that meant was higher cost replacements, and no one would work on it, so I always had to fix it myself. That's not so bad, but when a large portion of your business is already down, not having backup power adds some crap to the mix, and you only have 40 minutes of battery time. It only took once to learn to keep a spare of every electronic part in the generator and an extra mains switch controller. :-)

Sorry to burn your ears. Just nice to talk to folks that have a clue.

All the best,
David

[Darren Null]

I first really noticed mains power being fallible when I lived back in the UK. A factory across the road closed and they forgot to tweak the substation down a bit. We lived right next to it, so we were getting 280-300V in the wall, with blips on top of that. It took us 6 months to notice- I thought 3 sound systems in 6 months was a bit extreme, and my wife developed a reputation for killing hand blenders (to this day, there is a "Caution! Mummy blending!" sign on the kitchen door). So I poked a multimeter in the wallsocket (NOT recommended unless you know what you're doing) and found out. The electricity Co bought us a houseful of kit, which was nice; after 18 months of trying to weasel out of it.

The way it works it -say you're on 220-240V- the ones nearest the substation will be towards the high end and those on the end will be towards the lower end. On average. And you've still got a bit of play as people on the circuit turn things on and off.

Then we moved to Spain, and I am now an expert on dodgy supply. Apart from the 440V incident, people are always drilling through cables and playing with incredibly powerful power tools (if it doesn't brown out your neighbors it's not a proper power tool!). The electrical system here is a bodge on top of a kludge on top of improvisation; with emergency non-standard repairs holding the whole lot together. The standard rating, up until recently, was 1.2KW for the whole house. I believe that is still the case out in the country. And that's what the infrastructure is designed for. It's all a bit wobbly.

On the plus side, it has to be a REALLY nearby strike to get to us...the infrastructure melts first. We had a strike last year on the balcony not 10 feet from where I'm sitting. We didn't notice it inside, as we had the shutters down, but it blew a lot of tiles from the wall. Our various devices weren't effected at all. Even the UPS. Also the fact that most buildings here are reinforced cement means that everyone is living in a low-budget Faraday Cage. Strike for strike, there's a lot less damage caused here than in other parts of the world.

On the subject of Faraday Cages David, have you thought of putting your generator in one? It's not expensive- just a few poles and some chicken wire; and have decent earths all round it. If your generator exploding is a regular thing, it might be worth looking into. No guarantees with lightning, of course, but it improves the odds.

On the subject of lightning, here's a photo I took last year. Yes, those lights on the sea are fishing boats- they haul a statue of the Virgin Mary round the harbour every year and must reckon it makes them invincible.

[David Brasfield]

.... Also the fact that most buildings here are reinforced cement means that everyone is living in a low-budget Faraday Cage. Strike for strike, there's a lot less damage caused here than in other parts of the world.

On the subject of Faraday Cages David, have you thought of putting your generator in one? It's not expensive- just a few poles and some chicken wire; and have decent earths all round it. If your generator exploding is a regular thing, it might be worth looking into. No guarantees with lightning, of course, but it improves the odds.

On the subject of lightning, here's a photo I took last year. Yes, those lights on the sea are fishing boats- they haul a statue of the Virgin Mary round the harbour every year and must reckon it makes them invincible.

Great photo!

1.2kw. Geez, that's the size of my ups connected to this computer. I guess they thought a toaster and 4 light bulbs per house would be adequate :)

The generator is fully enclosed in a metal housing with both electrical and chassis ground.

The chassis ground is what I think caused most of the susceptibility in the first place. The manufacturer's instructions for installation was to have an isolated chassis ground with the electrical ground being provided by 400 mcm conductor to the ground field. That is the way it was installed (unbeknownst to me, I know better).

I discovered this while trying to figure out why my ground field (which contains a matrix of 20 rods - I was trying to fix our problem) seemed to be inadequate. I had field testers and recorders hooked up all over the place. Everything was testing well below 25 ohms (mostly well below 1 ohm). I the touched the high voltage probe to the visible chassis ground rod at the generator. It read about 175 ohms. I started digging around the top of the rod to check out what might be the issue. It had an electrically good connection to the chassis, and nothing else. Inside the generator are two large flat braids connected from the genset to the chassis (the generator is mounted on rubber vibration dampening mounts).

Now that the enclosure is properly connected to the ground field, I hope that I have seen my last failure. I found out that the manufacturer was out of business long before all this, but I did some research and discovered that the assets had been sold to another BIG name brand, then I wanted to sue for damages. Our legal system wouldn't accommodate me.

You should see what happens to a house when neutrals get connected to ground in more than one spot. That is a MINOR difference in potential. You can imagine what happened with my ground field and the generator.

Fun stuff....

David

[Darren Null]

A friend moved to Spain before us- that was what started us thinking about it. To a place in the country. We arrived. Plugged in the (3KW) kettle, and fried the house. Welcome to Spain. We had to make do with beer and torchlight. It's a tough life sometimes...

[David Brasfield]

A friend moved to Spain before us- that was what started us thinking about it. To a place in the country. We arrived. Plugged in the (3KW) kettle, and fried the house. Welcome to Spain. We had to make do with beer and torchlight. It's a tough life sometimes...

:D That is some serious back country living. I do have a slightly used 60KW generator for sale. Maybe you can pitch in with the whole town and buy it. I will even throw in the 1,000 gallon propane tank. Shipping is up to you though :)

David

[Frank Corker]

On my visits to Spain I have to admit I have laughed on more than one occasion at their electricity supply. Now you guys are in the European Union it's about time you get it sorted :rolleyes: :D:D

[Darren Null]

Spain was voted a couple of billion for updating it's infrastructure, and that money from the EU stopped a couple of years ago. I'm not totally sure where it went.

At the time the electricity grid went in, it was inconceivable at the time that ordinary domestic use would exceed 1.2KW. Even then, there was a bit of overcapacity, so a few per substation could upgrade their house supply to 2.4 or 3.6KW, and buy the electricity in for a higher unit rate (buy more, pay more per unit...go figure). Needless to say, nobody wanted to pay the higher rate and plugged in whatever they felt like anyway.

Whether it was an electricity board scam; or whether it was something like Bill Gates' "Nobody can possibly need more than 640K" failure to take the future into account, I'm not sure.

They definitely didn't take foreigners into account. When us Brits want tea, we want it *NOW!*.

Anyway, you can't laugh Frank- we've had less power cuts and brownouts than you guys in the UK have of late. :p

We live on the coast in a tourist town, so we don't really cop it until June-September when all the tourists arrive in force and everybody turns everything up to 11. Brownouts are quite frequent then. It kills desktop computers, so I've mainly switched to laptops now.
All in all, the electricity isn't too bad in town. Iffy in the countryside though.

Telefonica, the phone company is a different matter. They are awful all of the time. I honestly thought BT were bad until I got here. That's a whole thread full of ranting on it's own.