sawing walnut lumber....

[Terry Achey]

I posted this thread on the turners page, but thougth I could get some insight from the "flatwork" experts regarding tips on boards sizes, etc. I'll do a search for air drying techniques. I'm sure the subject has been posted quite often........ thanks, Terry
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I had two walnut trees and a maple taken down today by a tree service. I asked them to save the big pieces. Larger walnut was probably 80' high and has a 24" base. Got really tired of messing with tons of walnuts and the oodles of long wirey leaf stems they leave behind each fall. The maple was dying off at the crown and has a base of about 22".

Anywho, I took advice from the Sawmill panel of experts and contacted Woodmizer for a local sawyer and they gave me four locals. Have a guy coming Friday to take a look. There's more board feet here then I'll probably use but I don't want any to go to waste. In addition to sawing boards, I'm going to carve quite a bit for bowl work. Someone mentioned that the crotches can be very nice to turn. Anyone have advice on how to cut the crotch stock for bowl turing? (see photo). Also, any other tips on cuttng boards sizes besides 1 by's? Perhaps some thickerboard stock?

More lumber here than I thougth! These logs are about 11' long. :eek:
Attached Thumbnailshttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90616&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1213152308 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90616&d=1213152308) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90617&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1213152337 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90617&d=1213152337) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90618&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1213152337 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90618&d=1213152337)

[Gary Breckenridge]

;)First, get those ends coated with paint or wax. If there is more wood than you will use I'd suggest having a plank or two cut at 3 inches and sell or trade those for gunstocks table legs or long turnings.;) Most of the non crotch wood should be cut at one inch in order to finish up at 3/4".;)

[Martin Shupe]

I have cut walnut into boards with a chainsaw with a friend. The Woodmizer would be easier, no doubt.

Ask the woodmizer guy, he probably know how to make best use of your logs.

Anchorseal is a must.

Stack and sticker the boards in a shady spot. My friend's were put in an old barn for 8-9 months, then moved to his basement to finish drying.

1" equals one year of drying.

The pith board with split or cup severely, so plan on ripping it down the pith if it is wide enough, or minimize your losses.

Walnut is fairly easy to air dry, but we never could get the white oak to dry without checking.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

[John Keeton]

Most of the non crotch wood should be cut at one inch in order to finish up at 3/4".;)

I have air dried a bunch of green walnut, and depending on the width of the boards, I suggest going a little thicker - perhaps 1 1/8" - to accomodate any twist or cupping. On boards 6-7" or smaller, the one inch would probably be OK.

I agree with Gary on the thicker stuff to sell or trade. It is very difficult to find thicker stock in walnut, and it should bring a good price/trade.

Hate that you won't have the trees, but understand the walnut mess. We have some in our yard and they can be a pain. Also, because of the hydrojuglone, they can be a real problem in landscaping. Here is a link to an interesting article about the issue since you are going to be sawing these trees on your property. You may already be familiar with the problem. http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/nursery/430-021/430-021.html

[Frank Drew]

Terry,

Ditto on the advice to end-coat the logs; I'd probably take a narrow slice off the ends of the logs to trim up the torn grain of the felling cut before applying the sealer. If you subsequently crosscut any of them, re-coat the fresh end grain cuts. And have your stacking and stickering plan in place before the logs are broken down into lumber; you want to be prepared to stack them well as soon as you can to ensure flat drying. The lowest board shouldn't be too close to the ground, and a location with some air movement out of the direct sun is best, and you can cover and weigh down the top of the pile.

I like to have logs sawn through and through (flitch cut); IMO that yields the best looking, best matched, and widest boards. I agree with John to cut rather thicker than thinner, to accommodate potential movement. If you do have the logs saws through and through, the wood nearest the center of the log will have fairly straight grain and is ideal for thick stock, 3-4", since the pith (the very center) invariably splits so you won't be able to get a full-width board anyway. (A mix of thicknesses might be a good idea, to give you the most choices down the line when the lumber is dry.)

The crotch would be very nice for turning but also for highly figured flat panels or small table tops. The boards nearest the center of the crotch will have the most dramatic figure. To preserve the most crotch wood, don't crosscut too short -- leave some "waste" wood at the ends in case you get some end checking, in spite of whatever end coating you use.

Good luck.

[Ray Gardiner]

All good advice, my only addition to what has already been said is to contact
a gunstock maker and get some advice on how to get the best gunstock material first. The reason I say this is that's the most valuable dollar-wise.

You can't really tell what figure is like until you start slabbing, but those
pieces look pretty straight to me. Good furniture timber. You might get some
fiddle back under the fork. Perhaps 1 or 2 shotgun stocks, worth more as
a matched pair.

Don't forget that stuff can kill other plants!

[Steven Wilson]

That's a nice haul. I love using walnut but it's very hard to find 8/4, 12/4 or 16/4 stock. I would have them flitch cut 1" except for the middle section which I would try to get 12/4 or 16/4 stock from them. It's easy to find 4/4 stock commercially, it's the thick pieces that are worth quite a bit.

[Josiah Bartlett]

I flitch cut a 35" diameter walnut log a few years ago, keeping a 16/4 section out of the center, but sawn down the pith, so I have two 16" wide 16/4 sections. They are finally dry, and dear lord are they heavy, but they are beautiful and I'm saving them for the right project. I probably ought to look into getting them insured!

[Richard M. Wolfe]

Since it's going to be done on a Woodmizer the best way to cut would be using the 4/4 scale. It's just the way Woodmizer sets their scales - 4/4 yields 1 1/8" boards and their one inch scale gives one inch boards. We have cut a lot on both and in dealing with lumber cut to the one inch scale have had numerous instances of wood that didn't plane to 3/4". Usually it was not a matter of shrinkage but warping and twist in the boards.

End coat the logs before cutting.....that is easier to do than sealing each board as it comes off. Use dry stickers and space them no farther than 18 inches apart. Most of the problems we've had with drying and warping was in the stickers not being close enough together. You can get away with it in a species like pine but it's better to get closer for most hardwoods.....and it's never created any problems in drying.

If you cut thick stock you can resaw later and thick stock brings a premium. One of the reasons clear lumber brings a premium is it takes longer to dry and can be much more problematic with respect to checks and cracks. Good luck with it.

[Terry Achey]

Thanks for all the great advice. I learned alot and I copied most of the notes to a WORD doc so I can reference later. Maple is also a typical wood used in early flintlocks and I planned on building a replica "fowler" one day, so I'll also cut some 16/4 Maple, too.

I really do appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts with me. You just can buy experience!

Regards,
Terry

[John Keeton]

Terry, great to hear you are going to undertake building a fowler. I used to build a lot of long rifles, both flint and percussion. Never did a fowler, but was always intrigued by them. Make sure and allow plenty of thickness - 16/4 should work fine, and allow width for the drop on the stock. It actually takes a fairly wide board, and there is a lot of waste. The drying time will give you a chance to get together all the parts and do some research. That 16/4 will take at least 3 years to get dry enough, and even then I would want to test a cut piece.

I built a fullstock (42" barrell) flintlock once and noticed after a short while that the point of impact had drifted. Since it had fixed sights, something wasn't right. Pulled the barrel and the found the forestock had warped slightly - maybe an inch from the lock to barrell tip. There really isn't much wood left when those things are finished and I was amazed that such little stress would actually flex a heavy barrel, but it did! A little goes a long way on "minute of angle" at 60-70 yards. Those stocks have to be bone dry and stay straight.

[ken gibbs]

Five yeas ago I cut three huge walnut trees for lumber. I have just finished moving all of my walnut to my workshop including some four inch slabs I especially had cut to save for table legs. It is very hard to find 4" walnut at any price. When you cut it, mill your stock to 1" because you will plane it down to 3/4" after it dries. Paint both ends of your stock to slow down the drying process. I used cheap white exterior latex. I stacked my stock using 1" stickers and tried to keep everything very level to reduce warping. My stock is up to 18" wide and very beautiful. It mills like hard butter and is a pleasure to use.

[Frank Drew]

...keep everything very level to reduce warping.

If anything, even more important than end coating -- your lumber will only dry as flat as the support under the first layer. Apart from needing around a million stickers (3/4"-1", but the same thickness in each layer), your most important task is to get the base of your pile very straight and parallel. Sight along the support boards to assure yourself that it is.

[Terry Achey]

Terry, great to hear you are going to undertake building a fowler. I used to build a lot of long rifles, both flint and percussion. Never did a fowler, but was always intrigued by them. Make sure and allow plenty of thickness - 16/4 should work fine, and allow width for the drop on the stock. It actually takes a fairly wide board, and there is a lot of waste. The drying time will give you a chance to get together all the parts and do some research. That 16/4 will take at least 3 years to get dry enough, and even then I would want to test a cut piece.

I built a fullstock (42" barrell) flintlock once and noticed after a short while that the point of impact had drifted. Since it had fixed sights, something wasn't right. Pulled the barrel and the found the forestock had warped slightly - maybe an inch from the lock to barrell tip. There really isn't much wood left when those things are finished and I was amazed that such little stress would actually flex a heavy barrel, but it did! A little goes a long way on "minute of angle" at 60-70 yards. Those stocks have to be bone dry and stay straight.

Thanks for the tips, John. 3 years is a great timeline for me. Just about take me right up to my retirement party :) How wide do you suggest for the 16/4 to have enough for a drop stock? I was thinking around 8", but not sure if that's enough.

Thanks Ken and Frank, too. I'm hoping I can stack under an overhang that has a concrete pad underneath. Of course, my neighbor doesn't know that yet ... It's his pad! :D

[David Freed]

I have dried close to 250,000 bf of various species of hardwoods. I use fluted stickers spaced every 2' on everything except sycamore (1' spacing, with 1000's of pounds of weight on top, and it still twists).
I agree that endcoating will reduce endchecking, but I have found that it costs me more to endcoat (labor & material) than it saves, so I don't do it. Walnut does not endcheck nearly as bad as other species such as oak. With that said, if you are wanting to reduce endchecking as much as possible, then endcoating would be a good idea.

[John Keeton]

Terry, 8" would be close. The drop from the tang of the barrell to the heel (top) of the butt of the stock will be 2 - 3", and I would imagine the depth of the butt to be 4-5", so I would want closer to 9". I have seen people layout the stock so the grain is not parallel or straight along the forestock, allowing one to use a little less width in the board, but I would not do that as it weakens the forestock which is already the most fragile part of flintlock. However, some fowlers were 1/2 stock and you may be able to get by with a skewed layout in that situation. I would suggest you do a little research on the actual style of the gun you want first, and saw the maple accordingly.

BTW, a friend of mine has a walnut fowler with sterling hardware from England that is an absolutely beautiful work of art. It was built by a local gunbuilder. If you are interested, I will see if I can snag some photos and email them to you. Let me know.

[Frank Drew]

except sycamore (1' spacing, with 1000's of pounds of weight on top, and it still twists).

David,

A sawyer I used to buy from liked to say that sycamore would twist itself around your leg as it came off the saw :D.

[David Freed]

David,

A sawyer I used to buy from liked to say that sycamore would twist itself around your leg as it came off the saw :D.


I would just almost believe that. :D

[Mitch Richardson]

Terry, great to hear you are going to undertake building a fowler. I used to build a lot of long rifles, both flint and percussion. Never did a fowler, but was always intrigued by them. Make sure and allow plenty of thickness - 16/4 should work fine, and allow width for the drop on the stock. It actually takes a fairly wide board, and there is a lot of waste. The drying time will give you a chance to get together all the parts and do some research. That 16/4 will take at least 3 years to get dry enough, and even then I would want to test a cut piece.

I built a fullstock (42" barrell) flintlock once and noticed after a short while that the point of impact had drifted. Since it had fixed sights, something wasn't right. Pulled the barrel and the found the forestock had warped slightly - maybe an inch from the lock to barrell tip. There really isn't much wood left when those things are finished and I was amazed that such little stress would actually flex a heavy barrel, but it did! A little goes a long way on "minute of angle" at 60-70 yards. Those stocks have to be bone dry and stay straight.
The pressure doesn't move the barrel it just changes the way the barrel vibrates thus changing point of impact. Firearms are amazingly sensitive to that sort of thing.

[John Keeton]

Mitch, you are probably correct. The muzzleloader barrels are much softer metal than modern barrels, as you probably know, and that helps some. But whatever the reason, a little twist in that forestock, and you have problems!