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Doug Shepard
06-09-2008, 10:49 AM
It's about time I started shopping for a generator. Lost power about 2 weeks ago around 4AM on a Sunday morning, which didn't come back on until around 4PM. That one was caused by a tree taking down a power line which affected about 20 houses. Then last night we got a major storm (incl. tornado sirens) and the whole blasted area is out to the tune of around 140,000 homes. Lost power around 5PM and there's no estimate yet of when it's supposed to be back. Checking the power companies web site here from work, it shows my zip and the neighboring one responsible for around 100,000 of that. Fortunately my brother's power came back late last night so I was able to borrow his generator this morning. So what generator brands do I want to look at (or avoid) and how big? Need something to run a refrigerator, freezer, maybe a few lights and fans. Dont plan on trying to run the A/C but if power goes in the winter, being able to run the furnace blower is also something I'd like to do. Running TV, computers, etc. isn't a necessity but if there's enough extra power for that too, great. Got any recommentations?

Von Bickley
06-09-2008, 11:59 AM
Doug,
I live in a very rural area and if we lose power in the winter time, we will be the last to get it back. When we moved here, I knew I would want a generator for back-up power for our water pump & refrigerators. I have a bad heart, so I wanted a generator with electric start. I chose a generator from HF with a Subaru engine. Mine is a 4000 watt unit and I would have prefered a 5000.
The 4000 unit will take care of everything I need but the lights will dim when the water pump kicks on.

For your back-up power, look for a unit around 4 - 6 KW, with 120 and 240 volt connections. My set-up includes a separate generator electrical panel with manual transfer breakers. I cannot have generator power and utility power on the electrical panel at the same time. This protects the power company people when they are working on the lines.

Pete Simmons
06-09-2008, 12:14 PM
Remember like home shop tools (5 HP 110 volt table saw ) many generators are very overrated.

a good rule of thumb is 2 hp per Kilowatt.

So when you see a 8 KW generator that has a 3 hp gas engine on it, someone is trying to fool someone.

1 HP = 746 watts The rest is lost in conversion.

As for type of generator I think you would have a difficult time doing better than a Honda.

-------------------------

I am in Florida and many people ask me about installing generators. For most of them I tell them it is not worth it.

For the following reasons:

1. They want everything to work like normal including air conditioning.

2. They have no idea how to use it.

A. Hook it up

B. Be safely disconnected from the utility lines.

C. Store and use fuel. "Can't I just put 5 gals of gas in a can and keep it for X years?"

Your case is different - To run the furnace blower, water pump, refridge and a few lights a good electric start 5 Kw generator would be a good idea. Fuel storage, use and freshness is also something to consider.

Running computers and HD TVs - I am a little leary of running high $$ electronics on low dollar generators( < $15K home generator ) . Once the generator is running most will provide a smooth sine wave output but the ups and downs of loads coming on line and the on and off cycles for fuel and such make me wonder how much damage you could be doing to high $$$ electronics just to have them in use for a day or 2 - or even a week or so.

So if you want TV, use an old cheap TV when on a home generator.

Rob Russell
06-09-2008, 12:14 PM
We don't lose power that often, but my BIL's generator is sitting out in our shed. We used it a summer or 2 ago ... underground lines in our area were blowing and it took some time to get some of those fixed. One storm came through and lighting nailed some transformers and we were out of power for a day and a half - when it was 95 degrees or something like that.

We just used the generator to keep the 'frig and freezer going. We have city water and sewer so that wsn't an issue.

I will say that I'd look for a quiet generator. We lost power last summer for a bit and a neighbor fired his up - and left it running all night even though the power came back on. That was annoying because everyone else had their windows uopen.If you don't have proximate neighbors noise isn't as much of an issue. If you have neighbors within 100 yards, I'd look at the decibel rating of the generator. I'd also consider whether or not there was a way to build an enclosure to muffle the sound of the generator, even if it means running a cooling fan off of the generator to pull air through the enclosure.

If I were going out to buy one, it'd probably be about 10kw just because I'd rather buy the bigger one, deal with the wiring issues and have capacity to live somewhat normally. That way - if power goes out in the winter, we can comfortably keep things from freezing. We have a wood stove, but parts of the upstairs baseboards could freeze up in 1 one during the winter and draining the baseboards is a pain.

If you have a big propane tank already, consider a propane-fueled generator that you can run from the tank. It'll save you the issue of stale gas.

Matt Meiser
06-09-2008, 12:30 PM
Funny you should ask--as I type this I'm listening to my generator running. I have a Generac I bought at Home Depot 6 years ago when we had an ice storm. It was possibly the last generator to be found anywhere and I drove to a store almost an hour away to get it after arguing with the manager about their willingness to let me buy it over the phone with a credit card. Its a 5500W continuous/(edit: I was just out checking on it and noticed it says 8500W peak) unit and has worked well for me. When we had the ice storm we were out three days. By switching what was on, we were actually able to pretty much live a normal life other than refueling. We even did a couple loads of laundry by shutting of the furnace, fridge, and freezer for a while. We don't use the stove on it. And if we have an extended outage during the really hot days, we can easily run the absolutely critical loads in the house (fridge, freezer, well, sump pump), plus the AC unit on our camper, which we did during the big blackout a few years ago. I've verified with an ammeter that we are good. Since we are on a well, we are really in a bind when the power is out.

There are a couple features of this particular one I find nice. First, it has a removable fuel tank--not sure if they all do--but I can easily take it off, move it far away from the generator and refill without worrying about spilling gas on a hot motor. Second, it has two wheels that are large diamater making it very easy to move--kind of like a dolly. It has a Briggs and Stratton engine. As little as it gets used, I don't feel the extra cost of a better engine or "better" brand would be justifiable.

To keep mine ready to go, I keep it full of gas with Stabil and that has worked well for me. I also pull it out in the spring and fall and run it for about a 1/2 hour with something plugged in to each phase which I read somewhere you need to do. I'm not sure if that's a wive's tail or not, but it can't hurt. And I use Mobil1 in it so it will start easy in the dead of winter. I also added an hour meter so I would know when the oil needs changing, though I do go beyond what they say since I'm using synthetic.

One oddity I'm noticing today is that my internet keeps dropping out. I'm not sure if the router doesn't like the generator power or if Sprint is having problems since I believe the power is out where there tower that I connect to is located.

On a related note, Doug, have you been able get through to DTE Energy on the phone? Every time I've tried to call since last night I get a trouble message. They seem to be overwhelmed. They have outages from the tip of the thumb to my next door neighbors' house which is quite literally the southern-most extreme of their service area, the house on the other side of them is a different company (also out.) And from the western most to eastern most boundaries as well. I feel sorry for the guys out working today as they really got nailed and it sounds like we'll get more storms this afternoon.

Mark Springer
06-09-2008, 12:43 PM
I work for a generator company running the parts warehouse. Salesman will always try to sale you a bigger unit than you need. The best thing to do is look at what you want to run when the power goes out. Add up the total watts and amps of everything and then you will know what you actually need. Sales are very slow nationwide so now is a good time to get a good deal. Get an automatic transfer switch that wires directly into the house and then you don't have to worry about flipping breakers or putting out extension cords. As with every tool ,buy the best you can afford and get something a little bigger then you actually need. Oh and if the installer looks like someone you wouldn't trust to cut your yard then don't let them run the wire. I have heard some scary stories.

Joe Pelonio
06-09-2008, 1:50 PM
I use mine for the same thing, Fridge/freezer alternate an hour each, plus some lights and a few other small things. I have been using a Generac 5000 watt, and the only problem I've had is trying to run the microwave on it, that heats up the extension cord if anything else is on. Look for one with automatic low-oil shutoff.

Doug Shepard
06-09-2008, 2:19 PM
Thanks folks. I'm bout ready to head for home for the day which means I'm going off the air:eek: but Matt's is the same one I borrowed this AM from my brother. Been webshopping as time permits at work, but one thing seems real apparent. The quiet ones (with dB ratings in the 50's) are WAY pricey. All the reasonably affordable stuff in the 5-7 kW range look to be of the louder variety (dB levels in the 70's). I'll try to read these in a bit more depth tomorrow.

Thanks

JohnT Fitzgerald
06-09-2008, 2:21 PM
Lots of good advice and experience in here already.

All I can add is that I've looked into getting one as well - the few times we've lost power has really shown just how debilitating it can be. IMO, a 4KW or 5KW is more than ample for 'basic' use - lights, heat, well, etc. If you're even considering running more stuff (like central air), then you'd pretty much have to double that (8KW-10KW minimum), but I think I could do without AC in an emergency. Permanent ones connected to a natural gas supply are attractive, but if things are really screwed up then being totally 'self sufficient' has a lot of appeal (LP, or gasoline).

As much as I'd love a permanently installed "automatic" system, we don't lose power enough to warrant it, so I think a wheeled 5KW generator (Generac or Honda or something along those lines) would work fine I think.

Brian Elfert
06-09-2008, 3:23 PM
I have a natural gas standby generator. I figure if I lose both electricity and natural gas at the same time that things are really bad and I'm probably worried about more than electricity at that point.

If there is a widespread outage I might not be able to buy more gasoline for a gasoline generator anyhow.

I do have a generator that would run for a week easily in my RV. It is diesel and I have at least 100 gallons of usable fuel.

Joe Pelonio
06-09-2008, 4:46 PM
The quiet ones (with dB ratings in the 50's) are WAY pricey. All the reasonably affordable stuff in the 5-7 kW range look to be of the louder variety (dB levels in the 70's). I'll try to read these in a bit more depth tomorrow.

Thanks
Quite true, mine's 10HP and very loud. I run it in front of the garage, door closed of course, and we barely hear it from in the house. I do feel guilty for the neighbors, especially when they are freezing.

Joe Mioux
06-09-2008, 5:58 PM
i have a 15Kw generator that I purchased for my business 12-13 or so years ago. I got it from Northern Tool. It doesn't handle my needs here at the shop, but it works fine for my house. The generator has a 25hp Kohler engine and it is loud!

The drawback is when the power is out, I generally don't have gas so I have to go to the gas station. Unfortunately, they are generall out of power as well.

I don't have a transfer switch at the house, but I plan I buying one of those. Actually it's more like a sub-panel where you wire the circuits you want for emergency backup on that panel. I spoke with my electrical supplier about it earlier this year. He recommended this alternative to a true transfer switch due to costs.

If I would have to do it over, I would probably get a generator that could run of natural gas.

good luck with your generator search

joe

Joe Pelonio
06-09-2008, 6:29 PM
I haven't gone the "whole house route" because it typically only gets used 1-2 times a year. I actually made it through the 2007-2008 fall-winter without using it at all.

Tom Veatch
06-09-2008, 6:39 PM
...I don't have a transfer switch at the house, but I plan I buying one of those. Actually it's more like a sub-panel where you wire the circuits you want for emergency backup on that panel. I spoke with my electrical supplier about it earlier this year. He recommended this alternative to a true transfer switch due to costs. ...

Doesn't matter whether you call it a "transfer switch" or not, just be very sure that when the sub-panel is wired in, there's some kind of DPDT switch or breaker that will feed the sub-panel from the line OR from the generator but absolutely and positively NOT both at the same time. You want to be very, very sure that you don't backfeed the line from the generator or the generator from the line.

The "transfer switch" in my installation is actually two DP breakers ganged together such that when one is closed, the other is open and they can't both be closed simultaneously. The line feeds one of the breakers, the generator feeds the other. The output from that pair of breakers feeds the sub-panel containing the circuits that receive the "emergency power".

Matt Meiser
06-09-2008, 9:04 PM
Suddenly there are all sorts of generators on Detroit Craigslist--for premium prices. And I'd bet their selling.

Roy Harding
06-09-2008, 9:23 PM
We live in a rural area of northern British Columbia. (The southern most point of Alaska is south of us). We lose power a LOT in the winter.

We have a Craftsman 5600 watt genny. When the conduit for the shop power was going in, we put an extra conduit in as well. The important things for us were the sump pump (high water table around here), the well pump (no power = no water), and having a few plugs around for lights, etcetera. (Furnace fan isn't important - we have a wood stove which more than adequately heats the house as a backup). We had the well pump and pressure tank system rewired so that it plugs into a wall socket, instead of being hardwired in. The sump pump was already simply plugged in. We ran appropriate wire out to the shop machine room (where the generator lives), and installed appropriate plugs for the sump and well beside the normal ones. We also ran a few extra wires to 15 amp plugs (separate from the house system) in the basement.

When the power goes out, I head out to the machine room, start the genny, plug the labelled cords into the generator, plug the other end of those cords into the panel we have out there, come back into the house, switch the sump and well plugs from the "normal" outlets to the "genny" outlets, and run a couple of extension cords from the "genny" outlets in the basement for lights, radio, etcetera.

Works great for us, no hassles with "back feeding" power up the electric grid - because the two systems don't connect at ANY point. Our 5600 Watt generator fills our needs - runs sump and well, a few lights, radio or television, and a microwave or coffee pot.

I don't know what the draw of a furnace would be - as I said earlier, it's not a problem for us, we have a backup woodstove.

The "plug system" was MUCH cheaper than the automatic switch over systems you can get which switch your house from the grid to your generator. The simple "plug system" was suggested by our electrician as simpler, cheaper, and MUCH safer for the hydro company's technicians. He earned a bottle of rye (on top of his fee) for that suggestion - the fact that I helped him drink it is not relevant.

We've found our little Craftsman to be more than adequate and reliable - of course, other than using it for a few hours (perhaps a total of 72 hours) over the past two winters, it hasn't had to do much.

FWIW.

Roger Bell
06-09-2008, 10:24 PM
I am repeating much of what has been said. I designed my house and it's electrical system with a subpanel and a transfer switch. Those circuits on the subpanel allow me to have all lights and most plugs. The only 220 I have is my well pump. Modest-get-by-use. That means no electric furnace, no clothes dryer, no stove/oven, no water heater.

Now since the women folk don't get none of their necessary amenities, it is only reasonable that I don't get no shop power with all that manly 220 machinery. The set up is meant to get me by in emergencies.......and that's all.

Minimalist. We can heat with wood, heat water in tubs on the woodstove, we have the microwave and the outside grill. We have running water. No going down to the creek with an axe to chop a bucket hole in the ice. Those are my needs and the system has worked well for ten years....we activate it probably 15 times per winter. We keep about a weeks worth of gasoline in stock.

I wanted to get by with a relatively cheap-to-replace generator. Mine is 4000w with a Honda engine. I don't want some crappy, bush league engine that only responds to profanity, if it does at all. It is bad enough to be standing outside at night in the wind and snow in your bathrobe with a flashlight in your mouth screwing with the generator in the first place. No second rate engines for this boy.

Joe Mioux
06-09-2008, 11:22 PM
Doesn't matter whether you call it a "transfer switch" or not, just be very sure that when the sub-panel is wired in, there's some kind of DPDT switch or breaker that will feed the sub-panel from the line OR from the generator but absolutely and positively NOT both at the same time. You want to be very, very sure that you don't backfeed the line from the generator or the generator from the line.

The "transfer switch" in my installation is actually two DP breakers ganged together such that when one is closed, the other is open and they can't both be closed simultaneously. The line feeds one of the breakers, the generator feeds the other. The output from that pair of breakers feeds the sub-panel containing the circuits that receive the "emergency power".

I have a large transfer switch box just under the meter at the shop. When you throw it there is no mistaking it.

As far as the house goes, my electrical supplier is also an electrician. It definitely has a double pole double throw switch. Once the switch is turned to generator power ONLY those circuits in the box have access to electriicty, the remaining are cut off. I actually think, that with the size generator I have I could just but a simple dpdt switch in and call it good.

The generator is good for 60amps at 220v.

Doug Shepard
06-10-2008, 9:59 AM
Well I'm still webshopping. Matt, any shady characters that could have forecasted this event could have made a killing on CL. Buy a few for $500, sell them for $1000 - KaChing - and I'm sure people are paying it.

After listening to Mr Generac for protracted periods though, suddenly the quieter, pricier ones are starting to get some re-consideration. The noise is totally freaking the pets out, especially China (the dog). That and the additional thunder/lightning, and smoke alarm resets a few times when the Gen conked out. She refused to even eat last night. So for the sake of my "Kids" I might be spending more for a 50dB model. Still looking online.

Still no estimate yet, but the TV news (got cable back finally) says it could be tomorrow eve or Thursday for total restoration.

Doug Shepard
06-10-2008, 10:48 AM
...
On a related note, Doug, have you been able get through to DTE Energy on the phone? Every time I've tried to call since last night I get a trouble message. They seem to be overwhelmed. They have outages from the tip of the thumb to my next door neighbors' house which is quite literally the southern-most extreme of their service area, the house on the other side of them is a different company (also out.) And from the western most to eastern most boundaries as well. I feel sorry for the guys out working today as they really got nailed and it sounds like we'll get more storms this afternoon.

They dont seem to have much of an estimate on their website either. If you look at that online outage map of theirs, I'm smack dab in the middle of the orange zone (zip 48328) and even though they update the map every half hour, I've seen no color shift at all in our area. Seems like they they'd do something to restore the greatest number of users first, but they dont seem to be working it that way.

Matt Meiser
06-10-2008, 11:56 AM
We have an 11:45PM tonight restoration estimate. But I understand those were generated yesteray and there are something like 20,000 new outages after the storm that blew through last night. The way I understand, they go after the biggest fixes first. In other words, a zip code might have 20,000 out, but if those 20,000 are caused by 1000 downed wires they might be lower priority than 1 downed wire affecting 5000 people. Actually I've seen a lot of change on the map. More and more colored areas :( I think the number out has been climbing dramatically since they got their phone system working again. I know for our area it jumped by 640 overnight.

On top of that, the power at the closest gas station to me is now out--it went out while we were eating at a nearby restaurant since we couldn't really cook at home.

My Generac now has 70 hours on it last time I looked at the meter. Its doing well on gas too--its pretty much been on since about 10 Sunday night other than a 1 hour and a 3 hour break while I wasn't home yesterday and a couple short refueling breaks. So far we've used roughly 15 gallons of gas (that's $60 for those keeping track.)

James Gillespie, Jr.
06-10-2008, 12:32 PM
I went with a whole house unit after a hurricane 4 years ago took out our power for 40+ hours. The unit I got is an older version of this:
http://www.norwall.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=6&products_id=31

Everything on it is automatic. It is natural gas, so I don't need to fill it. When the power goes out, it monitors the electrical lines for 30 seconds, if not restored, it fires up and warms up for 15 seconds, the the automatic transfer switch kicks the load over to the generator. It runs everything but the AC unit and the woodshop. The older version I have doesn't deal too well with the AC startup, unlike the newer units. When the power comes back on, it makes sure it stays on for 30 seconds before transferring the load back. Then it does a 15 or 30 second (can't recall which) cool down before shutting off. I like the safety knowing I have exterior lighting on my house that works while the rest of the neighborhood is dark.

Cheers,
James

Doug Shepard
06-10-2008, 2:22 PM
Well it looks like what I want for staying in the quieter units is an inverter type. But the only thing I've found that puts me in the 5kW+ range is this Honda unit.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2GG&modelname=EU6500ISA&modelid=EU6500ISA

Haven't called anybody for prices but the one published online price I saw was $3100. I'm guessing I could probably find one for around 70% ($2800) of list if I call around. I did also see some nice inverter units from Robin-Subaru, Yamaha, and some others but they all fall a bit short in the kW ratings. There's another maker named Kipor that might be OK, but I'm a bit leery of Chinese imports.
http://www.amazon.com/Kipor-6000-Generator-Inverter-66021/dp/B000RULRJG/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1213114454&sr=1-9

The built in units would be sweet, but according to my next door neighbor who's got one, that's easily in the $5K starting range (including electric wiring changes and extras)

Still not sure I want to fly at this altitude, but with at least a 10dB sound decrease, one of these inverter types would be perceived as 2-3 times quieter than what's currently driving my dog nuts. Still thinkin here....

David G Baker
06-10-2008, 5:50 PM
Doug,
I like the Honda brand name. They cost more but seem to be quite dependable.
I lost power for about 8 hours on Sunday evening and used my Honda for the first time. It worked great except for my well pump not working. Don't think it was the generator but some problem with one of my breakers. I lost power, phone and cable.
I lost 3 trees to 60 mile an hour horizontal wind combined with rain. Almost a strait line wind but didn't have quite the force.
I bought my Honda from the Amish and saved a bundle. I have the 6500K inverter model with the enclosure for quieting it down. Cost me $3000 tax included.

Doug Shepard
06-10-2008, 6:16 PM
Well power is back on which couldn't have happened sooner. My brother had to come grab his Generac back as power is now out at the small Coney restaurant his wife and he own, so it's now keeping the freezer/fridges working there. So about 48 hrs total.

David
Got a link for your dealer? theAmish.com maybe???:D

Tom Godley
06-10-2008, 10:43 PM
I do not have one currently (pun intended) :)

Over the years I have had houses with them -- The best IMO are the automatic units run on propane or NG. They run weekly or every other to test themselves and the battery is kept charged from the house current. With propane or NG keeping fuel fresh for a long time is not an issue.

The above is also the most expensive and may not be what you are looking for. I wanted the generator for when I was not at the house to make sure that freezing or flooding was not an issue - so automatic was a must In my house in NJ I installed a battery backup sump pump to take care of the very infrequent and when they do happen, very short outages. The pump being the only must work item in that house.

The cost to properly integrate the generator into your wiring can be quite costly even going the manual way - it becomes more difficult if the items you want to run are not on isolated circuits. I never had one that was large enough to run a central A/C unit - they all had a relay on the AC control to keep them from kicking on if it was on back-up.

When I retrofitted one house it was cheaper to install a slightly larger generator that could handle the normal house load, this way I could keep my existing panel and have the whole thing switch automatically. I did not have to install a sub-panel and rewire or replace the panel.


If the power goes out very often and stays off for extended periods of time I think having to move and fuel a portable unit would be a pain - IMO. I recently received - as did my neighbors - A flyer on a large battery back up system that can power the whole house for a few hours. The point being in my area of PA the power goes off often but is not off for all that long.