Buying used... What is up with people?

[Eric DeSilva]

First, let me premise this by saying I'm am not a measurement freak. Yes, I align tools out of the box, have a nice 3' straightedge and some good thick engineering squares, but my feeler gauges have stayed in the garage, and I've never worried about whether my cast iron table is flat to 0.0015" or 0.0001". I did use a TS-Aligner to set up my TS. Once.

But, I wonder sometimes. I bought a used PM 14" bandsaw because I couldn't pass up the deal--great deal and the thing looked like it had never been used. Tiniest bit of sawdust. I've got a project now where I needed to fire it up, so I rolled it into the middle of the shop and started looking at it. Noted right off that the table was way off square to the blade--probably 3 degrees, and this is not a "it got out of whack moving" issue, the adjustment screw was way off and the lock bolt still tight. Then I noted that, with the table squared to the blade, the fixed side table was too high--we're not talking thousands or something, more like 1/8th of an inch. Fixed that too.

That started me thinking about the Unisaw I got a while ago. Great deal on a Platinum Edition with the 52" Bies fence. When I got it home, I noticed that the side extension table wasn't mounted correctly. The edge close to the table was level with the cast iron top, but the far end was probably 3/4" higher than level. How hard is it to level something like that--I mean you have a pair of steel rails that it should be level with. I don't even know how you get it off that far--the fence wouldn't even slide to the end of the rails.

So, with that longish intro, what is it with people? I kind of wonder whether, in both cases, someone decided to get rid of the tool because it didn't cut straight or something. But, these kinds of errors are soooo far off that they were visible to the naked eye (and my eye ain't that good). Just amazing. Who buys this kind of gear and then totally ignores set up errors of that magnitude?

Anyone else had similar experiences, or did I just find a odd couple of folks to deal with?

[Jim Kountz]

I bought a 10" Delta radial arm saw from a guy for $50 because he said it was "way outa whack and wont cut square anymore". I felt bad for the guy for about......oh two seconds!

[Richard Venturelli]

Some people have more money than brains!! Thank God for them, they keep me in business.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Some people are just not mechanically inclined. Over the years I have had a number of friends ask for my assistance when working on something..their vehicles, electronics etc. Some folks just don't have the aptitude for mechanical, electrical, electonics etc. Some days I'm not quite 100%, and I don't seem to have the aptitude.:o

[Brent Smith]

Some people have more money than brains!! Thank God for them, they keep me in business.

Very true, but then there are those that have more money than skills or aptitude. A lot of people with disposable income got bitten by the woodworking bug from watching Norm et al on TV. The same kind of people that made it impossible to buy a used Harley for a reasonable price a few years back. With WWing tools and machines, as with the Harley's, they just expect them to work and when they don't they either pay someone to fix it, let it sit in a corner, or sell it. Not everyone can turn a wrench, but then again not everyone can do nuclear physics or perform brain surgery.

[Pat Germain]

I agree with Ken. I don't agree as a put down to people. Rather, I think individuals are born with individual talents in varying degrees. There are some things which some people just can't learn.

I consider myself to be mechanically inclined. I taught myself how to work on cars. I completely rebuilt a small block Ford V8. I completely rebuilt the front suspension on my '69 Cougar. (I no longer have that car.) I can do pretty much everything except transmission and differential work on a classic American vehicle.

I'm a computer guy and work with people who know more about software and networks than I ever will. Yet, some of them are afraid to actually touch hardware.

Many expect tools to come from the factory perfectly set. They believe anything they do could only make things worse. And, if they did try to adjust something, they may never be able to get it right.

I'm no expert, but I have learned how to adjust my woodworking tools. I try to help people with their tools when possible. One of my coworkers just picked up a used contractor saw. He said it doesn't cut well. The symptoms are classic "out of alignment". I'm pretty sure I can help him there.

But hey, if someone is selling a tool because they can't adjust it and they've had it, I won't feel bad taking it off their hands.

[Richard Venturelli]

Yes, I got that. And not everybody is equal in every way. That is a fact!!

No kidding! I once installed a $10,000.00 stove/cooktop in a house, happened to be some famous rapper, He's not used it once. Mostly eats peanut butter sandwiches. That is only one example, I have many more!

[Clifford Mescher]

No kidding! I once installed a $10,000.00 stove/cooktop in a house, happened to be some famous rapper, He's not used it once. Mostly eats peanut butter sandwiches. That is only one example, I have many more!
Maybe he has no money left for fuel or power. Clifford

[Mike Cutler]

Eric

There is one more answer.

It may be that once someone decides they no longer need something, they break it down and shove it in a corner somewhere. Then one day they finally decide to sell it. Someone comes to look at it, and it gets hastily thrown back together to show the potential buyer that all of the parts are there, and the unit is complete. Not really try to reassemble it for use, so alignment is a non issue.
I have a band saw and a drum sander in this present condition. I've pushed both of them around the garage for awhile now,and I'm certain they are nowhere near aligned for use. I have a jointer slowly falling into this category also.

[Jesse Cloud]

Fancy tools attract a lot of people who aren't able or willing to learn how to use them or maintain them. Reminds me of a story...

I was working for an unnamed Fortune 5 company when pc's first came out. The company prioritized the first ones to come in to go to a few people with a specific technical need, and about the same number to go to some senior managers who were interested.

We were trying to beg/borrow enough computers to do a demo of some new software. I pleaded with one of those senior managers who resisted, saying he used his pc all the time. When he finally gave in, I went to disconnect the pc and found that it had never had a power cord.:eek::rolleyes:

Personally, I am spending more and more time maintaining machines which gives me less time to make sawdust. To cope, I'm getting really hardnosed about selling any tool (power or hand) that doesn't pull its weight, and buying quality tools that keep their settings and don't drift.

[Mike Henderson]

Personally, I am spending more and more time maintaining machines which gives me less time to make sawdust. To cope, I'm getting really hardnosed about selling any tool (power or hand) that doesn't pull its weight, and buying quality tools that keep their settings and don't drift.
While I'm mechanically inclined enough that I can adjust and maintain my power tools, I don't enjoy it. I agree about buying a tool that will keep it's settings.

And I LOVED the PC story!

Mike

[Peter Quadarella]

Well, since you all seem to be talking about me, I thought I'd give you the other sides' perspective ;).

I grew up in Brooklyn and spent all those years in a 2 bedroom apartment in an apartment building. I studied Mathematics in college and ended up working in the computer industry (software mainly, very little hardware).

There really was no time in my life when I could have become familiar with working on any type of machine. Cars were parked somewhere within 10 blocks of the building, certainly not close enough to work on. Power tools were too loud to use in the apartment, not to mention sawdust in the enclosed space. Wearing a tie to work everyday to a financial company doesn't give you much opportunity to interact with mechanical devices.

When I finally got a chance to move out of that city, I moved to North Carolina and bought a nice house on a nice lot with my wonderful wife. I immediately hired a landscaper as I had no idea how a lawnmower worked, or how cutting bushes worked. If my garage door broke, or my mailbox needed fixing, I called a handyman. I didn't have a clue where to start, and frankly was afraid that if I messed with something it would break and my house would fall down or something.

Really, it's just over the last two years, after having children and realizing that hiring someone at every turn is not a sustainable way to live, that I have started doing more hands on work - reloading, woodworking, around the house fix it stuff, etc. I am realizing that with some effort, patience, and using the ole' noggin' I can figure out how to do something without smashing it all to pieces. It's been a really fun transition and I'm still really enjoying it.

But there are certainly some "toys" I purchased before this transition - where if they didn't work exactly right when I bought them, I was sunk. It's a sucky situation to be in, and I can tell you that during those years I really envied the guys who knew how to get things working. But I do think that a big part of it is at least some minimal exposure at an early age.

[Pete Bradley]

I think there are fewer opportunities to learn basic measurement these days. Schools give up their shop classes because they fear lawsuits, and people grow up in urban/suburban settings where they can get by without really knowing how the basic machines of their life really work or what a practical measurement is.

The internet encourages people to get back to these skills (good), but valuable information and bad advice are hard to distinguish (not so good). Some examples from SMC:

1. How many posts do we see with "I just bought a straightedge and the table of my blurfl is out by .003. Should I care?" Well, I dunno. What problem are you trying to solve? Trouble is, mags like FWW and online articles are forever detailing tuning procedures like surgery when the results could be duplicated with simple tools.

2. Or: "should I run my machine on110 or 220?" Even though there are a zillion FAQs out there, there will still be 10+ responses, at least half of them completely wrong.

3. Or a question for which half the responses are repeats of what people have heard rather than what people have done. Questions on aftermarket machine "upgrades" and questions on finishing draw a lot of these. Oft-repeated statements become gospel whether accurate or not.
4. Finally manufacturers have recognized sales opportunities that further muddy the water. Band saws were shipped for 100+ years without detensioners. Now they're a very common feature on machines marketed to hobbyists. Are they needed?

I commend anyone with 10 thumbs who endeavors to pick up manual skills. It's not easy, and not all the help is helpful. At the end of the day, it's hands on experience that gets you there.

Pete

[David Epperson]

I'm a computer guy and work with people who know more about software and networks than I ever will. Yet, some of them are afraid to actually touch hardware.
A bit off topic, but this remind me of the joke about
"How many computer programmers does it take to change a light bulb?"















It can't be done - It's a hardware problem.:D

[David DeCristoforo]

What's up with people? How in the name of god can anyone answer that question? But in regards to woodworking, my I offer some perspective?

Between 1975 and 1985 I wrote a ton of articles for magazines like Mechanix Illustrated, Workbench, FWW and others. With the exception of FWW, the editors always wanted to stick in phrases like "a quick and easy whatever" or "a whatever you can make in a weekend". This used to drive me nuts because I knew there was nothing quick and easy about it and that even an experienced "pro" would be hard pressed to complete the task in a weekend.

This whole question goes deep into the idea that "anyone can do it". For years people have been told that they need no skill because the "machine will do the work for you". But it does not take long to realize that this is not the case.

I had a client who had a better equipped shop than I did but he always hired me to make his stuff because even though he had the tools, he had no idea of how to do the work. Of course, he would justify this by saying that he could do the work himself but he just didn't have the time.

My brother in law was in my shop one day watching me rout some simple edge profiles. After a bit, he commented that I "made it look so easy" and that every time he tried that, his edges burned or the wood tore out or any number of other problems occurred. After a further bit of discussion, it became apparent that his router was POS and he was using cheap HSS bits with fixed pilots. So I handed him my router (a 1.5HP PC with a "good" carbide tipped ball bearing bit) and a piece of wood. He was astonished to realize that he actually could make a rounded edge!

So, for me, the bottom line is that you need three things. You need good quality tools whether they are powered or not. You need the knowledge of how to use these tools. And you need the skill to use them correctly. No one is born with any of these. The assumption that this (woodworking or anything else requiring knowledge and skill) should be "easy" is both naive and arrogant.

[Eric DeSilva]

I am realizing that with some effort, patience, and using the ole' noggin' I can figure out how to do something without smashing it all to pieces. It's been a really fun transition and I'm still really enjoying it.

...

But I do think that a big part of it is at least some minimal exposure at an early age.

A good set of observations. When I was young, we didn't spend money on getting things fixed or repaired or altered... My dad did it, often with me riding shotgun or handing over tools or parts. I still remember, when my dad was tackling one project, asking him whether he was, in a sense, qualified to take it apart--heck, coulda been a clutch on the family car or the installation of a sliding glass door or repairing a VCR. His response was "shucks, I figure the guy who put it together wasn't any smarter than I am."

Being willing to dive in and figure it out along the way is something--I hope--I can pass on to my son (not being sexist or anything here, just have the one). Guess my post was just me forgetting that not everyone got that particular programming early on. That said, it does have its downside--I've gotten myself committed to projects where I probably should have gotten some help. Still, managed to persevere through them and learned a lot on the way. Its sometimes kind of *painful* tho'. (Among the things I've learned is that I really, really don't like mudding drywall. Or installing glass fiber insulation.)

Still, it is still a bit weird to me that someone is going to spend 8 bills on a bandsaw or 12 bills on a TS and not be willing--or realize--that its not going to require a little bit of time to get things working right. And, while I accept that some things can fall out of alignment due to being kicked around or just from gremlins, neither of my experiences seem to fall in that category...

Anyway, guess I should quit complaining and be thankful that there is a big market out there for misaligned tools where someone else takes the "buying new" depreciation hit...

[Richard Venturelli]

Well, since you all seem to be talking about me, I thought I'd give you the other sides' perspective ;).


Good for you, I'm glad you jumped into it. You get a certain satisfaction when doing it yourself. Keep up the good work. And I'm sure youre not the brunt of this post.

I've built many things, when I was younger I was a lineman building the Internet. I don't know how many thousands of miles of fiber optic cable I have placed. But I can still look up at certain poles in different States and say I did that. But then again there is a guy sitting at a desk designing buildings that can say the same thing. So it all comes out in the wash.

[Pat Germain]

You need good quality tools whether they are powered or not.

I'm glad you mentioned that, Dave. While it seems obvious to us, it's not the case for everyone. When I was younger I was often frustrated that one of my cars required a repair which I could easily do, but I didn't have the required tools. People would always say something stupid like, "It's a poor mechanic who blames his tools". Man, I really that statement. In reality, Mr. Goodwrench can't do anything well without quality tools.

I also shake my head at people who insist on doing everything with a screwdriver, pliers and a crescent wrench. As I kid, I saw many a bicycle with every bolt rounded off from Dad and his "speed wrench".

My brother and I used to laugh at the commercial for some stupid, adjustable wrench. It actually said, "Take your tools and throw them away!" We often wondered if anyone actually believed they could replace entire wrench and socket sets with a TV-order adjustable wrench. :p

As for people who didn't grow up fixing things, that's cool. I didn't grow up around woodworking. I'm having to teach myself. Since I did grow up around cars, assembling and adjusting machines is a little easier for me; once I figure out how to do it.

[Curt Harms]

Well, since you all seem to be talking about me, I thought I'd give you the other sides' perspective ;).
.......
But I do think that a big part of it is at least some minimal exposure at an early age.

Peter you are by no means a rare species, and you're right about exposure at an early age. You deserve credit for being willing to try--that's half the battle. That was one benefit of growing up on a farm. Things never seemed to break at 9 a.m. on a Tuesday morning, it was usually Christmas Eve or some other equally convenient time. Necessity being a mother, you figured out how it was supposed to work and how to fix it well enough to last until you could get somebody who actually knew what they were doing out.

[Gary Herrmann]

I think more than anything else, buying the old house I currently live in got me to take the dive in approach. For the first year we lived here, I think we went to the borg at least once per week.

That said, I sometimes think it would be nice to have someone else mow the lawn and do the yardwork when its in the 90s. Give me an indoor project any time when it starts getting hot.

Hm, a few more years, and the mancub can take over the yardwork tho...

[glenn bradley]

Who buys this kind of gear and then totally ignores set up errors of that magnitude?
Lotsa folks. A neighbor was going to dismantle and return his new BS because the table was uneven where the blade slot runs through. I helped him out and stuck the table pin back in for him.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I consider all acquired tools to need service, be they new or old. Look at Stanley hand planes. Ever see one that couldn't use a tune up (flatten back of blade, flatten sole of the body, etc.) Today I bought a couple of used lawn mowers for $30. It is truly amazing how much better one runs with the water in the gas tank gone. Mower is four years old, but original blade is still sharp. Other mower will furnish an engine for a mower I already own. Last year, I bought a Delta RAS from state surplus. Tag said 220 only, but some bozo cut plug off and replaced it with a 110 plug. Saw was sent to surplus as broken. When I was teaching school, in the warehouse was an air compressor. Warehouse foreman said we would need a fork lift to pick it up. Took it to the parking lot and drained out about 15 gallons of water, which made it much lighter. Used it till I left that teaching position. Main thing is to try and fix tools. I remember my father telling about a fan he had during WWII. Blade needed to be welded. Welder told him it might not work afterwards. My father looked at him and said "Do you think it is working now?" Due to war time restrictions, a new fan wasn't a choice.

[Simon Dupay]

That started me thinking about the Unisaw I got a while ago. Great deal on a Platinum Edition with the 52" Bies fence. When I got it home, I noticed that the side extension table wasn't mounted correctly. The edge close to the table was level with the cast iron top, but the far end was probably 3/4" higher than level. How hard is it to level something like that--I mean you have a pair of steel rails that it should be level with. I don't even know how you get it off that far--the fence wouldn't even slide to the end of the rails.

So, with that longish intro, what is it with people? I kind of wonder whether, in both cases, someone decided to get rid of the tool because it didn't cut straight or something. But, these kinds of errors are soooo far off that they were visible to the naked eye (and my eye ain't that good). Just amazing. Who buys this kind of gear and then totally ignores set up errors of that magnitude?

Anyone else had similar experiences, or did I just find a odd couple of folks to deal with?
Think thats bad? the left wing on the uni at work is a good 1/16" high on one end and the side table on the saw stop is 1/4-1/2" below the right wing and these saws where set-up like this too!

[Rick Potter]

Bought my 12" DeWalt RAS from a veterinarian friend who only used it for about a year. He warned me he didn't like it because it would not hold a setting.. when I got it home I found out all the bolts were finger tight. Adjusted it per manual, and it has been fine for years.

Rick Potter

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I bought a 6"48" belt sander for $40.00 because the poor SOB who had it could not figure out how to make it track straight. He had replaced bearing and what all but he was stumped. It was sad. He had painted little white arrows all over the thing indicating belt direction, which way to crank the adjusters, etc.

He needed to replace the idler belt pulley too ('cause the bores were shot) but just didn't realize it.

[Peter Quinn]

What's up with people? They are a mixed bag, lots of varieties out there. I encourage toleration and understanding, I'm wary to cast the first stone so to speak. I don't always practice what I preach.

Unlike the other Peter Q here I grew up in a large family of contractors, so the kids in my lot all learned to use tools from an early age. We had lots of people to teach us and lots of opportunities to practice. We learned bits of lots of trades that were helpful, and we learned when to defer to an actual pro. Its not that you can't "Do it all yourself" eventually, question often not asked is should you? Should you build your own chimney just because you can re point a few bricks and hold a trowel? Should you attempt to wire your own shop because it will save you money, and besides you already know how to screw in a light bulb? Its funny that TOH, the show that "sparked the DIY revolution" almost never shows a home owner doing anything! It's a look into the world of professional contractors doing renovations, not an encouragement for every over zealot person seeking a hobby to wreck their home. I encourage people to do things themselves, but please start by asking "Should I be doing this?"

As long as I'm ranting, what's up with all the posts that state "I don't have 220V in my shop". Uh, I get not having 3PHS, thats a bit more difficult to over come, but 220? How hard is it to put in a 220 circuit? The suggestion that 220V is in some way hard to get is just silly. Perhaps the post should state "I'm too broke or too cheap to hire an electrician, and I don't know how to do it my self." Maybe its because my father, FIL, and next door neighbor are all electricians that I don't see 220 as a problem?

As far as machines for sale not properly set up, my best one to date is my RAS. Its a 1949 Dewalt GR 14" long arm (24" cross cut). It was given to me for free by a former employer (aging hippy) who's contractor on a building renovation (kid right out of trade school they wanted to give his first big Break!) in NYC had ordered it from an industrial machine seller used in 1982 for use in rebuilding the entire structure. He never received the welded "H" frame to which old RAS's arms were bolted. He built a 'box' out of 2X6 and lagged the 420# iron arm to this! Couldn't figure out why it wouldn't cut straight! Told them it was junk, so it sat in their basement for 19 yrs (they rebuilt the building around it!) until they said to me ,"Hey, you do stuff with wood, would you like an old saw? We sure could use the space back."

That saw, once I tracked down the missing "H" frame, sets up darn near perfect, the TRUE 2 (yes, a 2HP motor that draws 17A220, not some over rated vacuum cleaner) runs like a champ, and I am thankful each time i use it that some other guy was too ignorant to know what he had, and too stubborn to ask around and learn more about it. It works as well as a new Original Saw that sells for $4K. I for one love those mechanically disinclined impulse purchase fickle would be hobbiest types with large budgets and small aptitudes for machines. I hope each of us here gets to meet one at least once, and buy their beautifully made but poorly set up machines for a song.

[john bateman]

"Still, it is still a bit weird to me that someone is going to spend 8 bills on a bandsaw or 12 bills on a TS and not be willing--or realize--that its not going to require a little bit of time to get things working right."

This is something woodworkers have become accustomed to after having to fix or align a few new tools. But what other product would you accept that had to be aligned, tuned up, or repaired before you could use it? A car? A TV? A toaster? You'd be indignant and probably return it and swear not to buy that brand again.

[Pat Turner]

"Still, it is still a bit weird to me that someone is going to spend 8 bills on a bandsaw or 12 bills on a TS and not be willing--or realize--that its not going to require a little bit of time to get things working right."

This is something woodworkers have become accustomed to after having to fix or align a few new tools. But what other product would you accept that had to be aligned, tuned up, or repaired before you could use it? A car? A TV? A toaster? You'd be indignant and probably return it and swear not to buy that brand again.

Anything that fits in a box, I expect to work out of the box. I expected to be able to start cutting with by bosch SCMS the day it showed up. And I wasn't disapointed. Ditto with my Mag Drill press. But when something has to be installed, or assembled, i expect to have to "align" or tune it if it is a precision tool. I do get irked by chisels that are shipped to dull to cut, but am a little more understanding of acepting the cost benefits tradoff of buying a tuned LN plane or an off the shelf indian made one.

My ignorent user story- I pulled into a small gas station and saw an adult and a 16 year old kid, gas nozzle in hand staring at a tractor. Seems the man had just bought a house and land, it came with a tractor. He drove the tractor to the station, but had no idea if it was gas or diesel. Kid didn't know how to tell

[Mark Kosmowski]

"Still, it is still a bit weird to me that someone is going to spend 8 bills on a bandsaw or 12 bills on a TS and not be willing--or realize--that its not going to require a little bit of time to get things working right."

This is something woodworkers have become accustomed to after having to fix or align a few new tools. But what other product would you accept that had to be aligned, tuned up, or repaired before you could use it? A car? A TV? A toaster? You'd be indignant and probably return it and swear not to buy that brand again.

By 235K miles you'd be surprised how much you can learn about car repair if you're too cheap to have it done elsewhere. This and they don't even make an aftermarket repair manual for my vehicle, so I'm using the generic systems manuals (i.e. "Steering and Suspension").

I think that taking the time to properly tune the big tools help you understand how to use them better and what kind of results to expect.

[Harley Reasons]

I was extremely fortunate to have been raised by a father who could fix anything or so it seemed. He came back from WWII and became a tractor mechanic and by the time I started school I was working in the dealership where he worked sweeping floors and emptying the trash cans. My wage for the tasks were .25 a day. By the time I graduated high school in 1964 I had a complete set of wrenches, my own bay in the shop and was earning full mechanic's wages. I figured out late one night working on an old car in the cold of winter that there had to be a better way to make a living. I joined the Navy and left West Tennessee. I learned a lot in the Navy and then went to work for the Tennessee Valley Authority. In 30 years there I was around some of the most talented individuals that were masters of their crafts. Each and every project I ever tackled I sought advice from those masters. It paid off in the long run and today I can tackle anything from a computer to mudding the drywall. Ain't Life grand!!

[Frank Guerin]

"Still, it is still a bit weird to me that someone is going to spend 8 bills on a bandsaw or 12 bills on a TS and not be willing--or realize--that its not going to require a little bit of time to get things working right."

This is something woodworkers have become accustomed to after having to fix or align a few new tools. But what other product would you accept that had to be aligned, tuned up, or repaired before you could use it? A car? A TV? A toaster? You'd be indignant and probably return it and swear not to buy that brand again.

Well said. Most of mine are old Rockwell. I don't understand the ability of those that can build beautiful pieces of wood but can't or won't rebuild old equipment.

[Geoff Barry]

To go back to one of the earlier posters (one of the Peter Q's, I believe), it is hard for many people who have a knack for mechanical issues, and/or who grew up around tools, to understand how intimidating they can be for someone who didn't.

I think it is two things -- a willingness to poke and prod at something, and a manual aptitude. The latter I would compare to athletics -- I could describe to anyone how to shoot a jump shot. And you could read plenty of books about shooting mechanics (or perhaps I should say, the mechanics of the shooting motion :) ) But you would need endless repetition to be really good at it. And frankly, for many people, even such endless repetition might not make them a good jump-shooter. Several of my friends have picked up woodworking as a hobby, at they all go through the same stages I did -- "Hey, this seems pretty simple" "Wait, why did that happen?" Then it slowly occurs to them that woodworking requires a feel as well as knowledge. The more you do, the easier it gets, and the more you learn . . .

I started building stuff about 8 years ago, when I was already in my 30s. I decided it didn't look like it hsould be that hard, and started right in. Without someone to show you what to do, you are bound to make many, often hilarious, mistakes. So don't underestimate the advantages of learning at the knee of a parent or relative :)

For my part, I just picked up a craftsman contractor saw at a garage sale for $100. It was not used much by the owner, and he seemed really interested in replacing it with a bosch portable. Other than some paint and surface rust, it was in decent shape. However, I realized almost immediately that ripping anything would have resulted in almost guaranteed kickback. The guard and splitter was missing. The throat plate was too low - three of the four set screws were missing. In additon, the throat plate was bent. Both of these caused wood to catch on the lip at the back of the throat plate, and, with the curve of the throat plate, directed the end of the wood back into the blade. Even worse, the fence pinched in almost unnoticeably toward the blade. Finally, he was using some ancient steel blade that may or may not have been original to the saw, but certainly was a long way from sharp. Some WD40, sandpaper, Paste wax, a few set screws, some fence alignment, the addition of a splitter and a new blade, and one bend of a throat plate the old-fashioned way (with pliers), and it cuts smoothly :) BUt I have to wonder if the reason he was dumping it was because using it scared the hell out of him.

[Michael Koch]

I consider myself a very lucky person. At the age of 10 years old my family moved to a 100 year old house. For the next 3 years, my father gave me a first classs education in rebuilding the whole house. By the time I was 14, I had my own set of mechanics tools and construction tools also. My father was of the thinking that why hire someone to do something that you can learn and do yourself.

Those lessons were the best thing that happened to me. It has helped me to this day. I earned a degree in Industrial Engineering and have been around mechanical workings ever since. Just having the guts to dive in on a project is the best thing.

[Wilbur Pan]

The assumption that this (woodworking or anything else requiring knowledge and skill) should be "easy" is both naive and arrogant.

I had to think for a long time about how I felt about this statement. I certainly have been guilty of advocating that woodworkers looking for a bargain get a piece of 1940's era machinery and tuning it up. That's how I outfitted the majority of my workshop. I usually say something along the lines of, "If you think that you need some sort of mechanical genius to be able to do this, well, I was able to, and I don't have any special mechanical ability -- my day job is being a pediatrician."

But then, I saw this:


But I do think that a big part of it is at least some minimal exposure at an early age.

and then I remembered that although I never really did anything mechanical growing up, I often saw my father fixing up our car by himself. I think that his big triumph was replacing an alternator on his own. I wasn't allowed to help, because he was convinced I would amputate something if I did. But I certainly did watch. My father also fixed a lot of things around the house on his own. He also did not have any special mechanical or construction skills to my knowledge -- he is a physics professor.

And then I remembered that one of my projects my second year of college was to take an old ten speed bike that I had since junior high and never took care of, stripped it down completely, except for the crank and the bottom bracket, cleaned the parts and reassembled it. I honestly did not remember doing this at all until tonight, but I have to believe that something stuck that allowed me to go the old machine route.

I still am not sure how to take David's comment. On the one hand, I feel bad for being naive and arrogant. On the other hand, it is a pretty good ego boost. ;) In any case, I'm glad I had the experience of watching my father fix things on his own when I was growing up.

[Peter Quadarella]

First off, it is extremely bizarre hearing a phrase like "one of the Peter Q's". I don't believe I've ever heard of another Peter Q in my life, :D.

Second, I have to agree with Wilbur's post. I wanted to reply to David's post, but I wasn't sure how to.

On the one hand, he is absolutely correct. What often seems easy usually turns out to be much more difficult - and to do this woodworking stuff correctly, once you've dipped your toes in, really can be intimidating. I think we all reach a point where we begin to understand the amazing amount of knowledge and skill it takes to make some of the beautiful pieces of furniture we've seen on this site (and elsewhere). It can be somewhat annoying when someone who has not dipped their toes in comes along and talks about such works in simple terms.

On the other hand, there is a level of woodworking that is very approachable. I don't necessarily think it would be a good thing for everyone to understand the depth of skill and knowledge some of you have, because it could potentially scare many (e.g. me) away from a really rewarding pursuit.

In the end, my "exposure" has been very eye opening, and more than anything, fun! I was listening to an old tape of Garrison Keillor in the car on the way home today, and he compared corporate work to "reality", where you actually DO something. And that's how it feels to me.

To take it back to the OP though - sometimes there is only so much one can do with their spare time. Perhaps sometimes the person turning in their old jointer just decided they had other interests they'd rather spend their time on. I'll take it off their hands ;).

[David DeCristoforo]

"I still am not sure how to take David's comment."

Well, I can tell you how I meant it. It was not to say that anyone should feel "naive and arrogant" in attempting to do anything. Rising to a challenge is admirable. But it is "naive and arrogant" to presume that whatever that anything is going to be easy or not require at least an understanding of the task at hand.

[Peter Quinn]

I have been doing this wood working thing professionally, or at least as professionally as my present skills allow, for 5-6 years. Before that I was a professional chef for 12 years who learned the trade on the job and performed at the highest level in NYC.

I can't tell you the number of times I had an ambitious home cook ask me for an exact recipe, which I of course never had as they were rarely used. I'm thinking "So you want me to explain to you in a few simple sentences how to do something that is the culmination of years of professional experience, that is highly refined from years of practice, that involves considerable feeling and intuition developed over a life time, and you believe you will actually understand what I am going to tell you?"

Having drooled over Mr. D's web site, I thought his comments were spot on. His work is highly refined and beautifully designed, the kind of thing to which I aspire in my new career. Having had my fill of the "naive and arrogant" in my last career, the statement resonated with me deeply. I was told recently that that some where along the line most adults forget how to play like children. Children often just "do" things for fun with out expectations to see what may happen. And so they grow quite quickly. If we can all learn to play like children in our work or hobbies it seems we will never grow tired of it, and won't be found selling the shells of our broken machines on Ebay. Of course the Creek is kind of like the choir...

[CPeter James]

I have followed this thread and wondered where I fit. I am a DIYer in many areas and If I don't have the tool, you probably don't need it. There are a few metal working tools that I don't have now, that would be nice. but then last year I sold a bunch of under used stuff preparing to move. I don't repair automatic transmissions and I don't do fuel injection repairs. Anything else, I am game to try. I find that some of the best woodworkers are poor mechanics ( and I have their old tools in my shop). That is just the way things are. My bother used to say that as a woodworker, I was a darn good blacksmith. It was an insult then, but now I take it as a complement. I am a better mechanic that woodworker and I admit it. I like tools!! And I like machines!! There is nothing I like better than super tuning a machine or tool. I may not be able to use it to it fullest, but it is ready to use. I just was made the gift of a Stanley #2 bench plane. It was completely covered in rust and duller than a hoe. I spent a whole day cleaning and polishing and sharpening it up. I will probably not ever use it much, but it was fun making it ready to use.

Sometimes I have to build something, just to justify the tools in the shop, but I would rather just buy and fix up more tools. That's life.

CPeter

[Dave MacArthur]

Here's my similar story for today:
Tenant called and said "the Oven doesn't work, it's not heating". I referred her to the book, she called back--still broke. I drove out there, pressed the button labeled "Press to light Pilot Light", and charged her for the gas... but that's still $40 these days!

[Anthony Fields]

My dad was a hack, but he got by with us three kids and he worked very hard. He'd always tell me- "you ain't nothing without a set of blue prints". Well, that could be true, but, I just fixed his chainsaw, tore it apart and fixed it all. New lines etc. No big deal. But it sure did help having the blueprints there for the parts numbers. ;)

But like the other poster said. Not everyone is mechanically inclined. I'm not. But I did learn one thing along the way from my best friend. A great mechanic at near anything. Patience.

The goal in life is to teach people what you know so they can teach someone else. I've learned alot here. I have used it all and can't. But, like I said, the goal is to pass on your knowledge. Unless your happy dying with it. :eek:

[Justin Leiwig]

I have another side to this story.

Maybe that machine being out of alignment was good enough for that person?

I had the pleasure/pain of watching my father fix or repair many a thing. He had a high standard to live up to because both of my grandfathers were the type that could just look at something broken and know how to fix it without ever looking at it.

My father on the other hand never really had the patience or desire to make things perfect. "Good enough for Goverment work" was one of his favorite lines when he half-azzed something to make it work. He was one of the original "duct tape" men and if a couple boards had a slight gap, a thicker coat of paint would fix that right up.

As I grew up and got older, I kept taking on more and more of the projects around the house to help my parents out. I was a regular discliple of Nahm and TOH. At first I was just like my father and just slapped together something that may have not been pretty, but worked (for a while anyway). Slowly over time I realized that it's actually much easier to spend the extra time to plan things out and to set things up right and get the best results than to have to redo something 4 or 5 times.

Of course now I'm known as anal/obsessive compulsive about things. I have a hard time getting anything done in a timely manner. I plan down to the minute detail (ie. x number of screws y length required for piece A). But I know in the end that there won't be any mistakes and the project will be well done.

But as others have said you still have to have that "go for it" spirit. If I hadn't had that attitude I would have never built a shed from scratch, catered a wedding, or any of the many other things I've accomplished in my life and look back on with pride in a job well done.

[Rob Hough]

Well keep in mind that there are things considered "common knowledge" amongst you old timers that some of us just haven't picked up on. There are also a ton of assumptions that I think new comers make that aren't entirely without merit. For instance...

When I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to tweak it out and fine tune it just to make it drive well. I expect it to do that off the showroom floor. I'm assuming most other people do as well. That same approach is probably applied to most anything we buy. Especially from the higher end brands.

In order to fine tune those tools you now have to go out and get things like a straightedge, and squares. See my last paragraph! I never would have expected my straightedge to not be straight, or my squares to not be square!

I'm actually thinking about picking up one of them new fangled fancy straightedges and squares today... I'd like to finally tune my jointer, tablesaw, and bandsaw correctly. :)

[Henk Marais]

I grew up in a family of artisans and construction workers in a mining town. I always thought all men are technically able. Boy was I wrong!:rolleyes:
Some of my friends (now living in a city) don't know where the bussines end of a screwdriver is.
I dont mind though, they create lots of work and opertunities for guys like me.

I als bought a lot of second hand equipment from a guy, who wanted to impress his new wife by installing a new kitchen. Two years later she (Still kitchenless) devorced him and sold all the machines to me for a steal.:D

[Eric DeSilva]

Gawd... Hope you weren't calling me an old timer! I'm only... er... what, like 43? Think the term is middle-aged, and even that sort of hurts. And, I've only come back to woodworking after a really long hiatus--haven't been around WW tools (as opposed to home repair tools) for probably 25 years... Thankfully, as of last Sept., finally got a basement large enough for a shop.

Anyway, I got swamped at work, and just got back to looking at this thread. The one thing I'm carrying away from it is that, come Father's Day this weekend, I definitely, positively, will be thanking my dad for imparting to me--teaching by example--the willingness to fearlessly rip through that sticker that says "WARNING. Breaking this seal may void your warranty."

[Barry Reade]

This is a great thread. I have learned so much reading it and all the inputs. It helps me to understand younger folks and why or why not they are the way they are. My Dad wasn’t a craftsman/handyman. He was retired from the army a year after I was born with a bad heart. As long as I knew him he was a clerical worker and the only thing he like to do was grooming his yard. He spent all day Sat and Sun working in the yard and that was what my weekends consisted of also. I came to really detest working in the yard when all my friends were going to the beach or the lake and not having to work in the yard. I will say today that the experience helped me to hone skills with my hands that I have used my whole life and today I am thankful for.

I have worked with my hands most of my life. Even as a kid I can remember putting together plastic model airplanes and cars. After they were put together came the dreaded “decals” to finish the project. I really hated thoughs decals. But, over a period of time I got better at it and considered myself semi competent in the end. I remember the gas model airplane engines and planes. The .049 engines and just to get them running was a major accomplishment for a 10 yr old kid that got no help accept the old timer that ran the hobby shop and what he could tell me over the counter. When I was in high school I wanted to take auto shop and my Dad had a fit. I was only to take pre college classes but good old Mom saved the day and made it so I could take auto shop. I took it all three yrs in high school. I went to college for only two semesters and then the Draft sent me a notice that I was 1A. I signed up in the US Navy and beat the draft and became nuclear submarine mechanical technician aka engine room mechanic. I ended up being very good at it and spent 30 yrs making submarines work. So all those years I operated and maintained the equipment on the submarines.

I gave me the self confidence to work on things that most people wouldn’t. I had guys that would work on million dollar pieces of equipment but did not have the confidence to work on their own car. Some folks just can’t connect the dots. That is why we aren’t all the same. We are each one of us individuals. The guy that I get his used piece of equipment that wouldn’t operate correctly, that just needed to be adjusted makes it up by being good a something that I might have no interest in or actually detest doing. So it balances out in a lot of ways. But, if really hard times come those that can be self sufficient will do better in many ways over those that are not.

[Barry Reade]

The one thing I'm carrying away from it is that, come Father's Day this weekend, I definitely, positively, will be thanking my dad for imparting to me--teaching by example--the willingness to fearlessly rip through that sticker that says "WARNING. Breaking this seal may void your warranty."

Eric, that was a great thought.:D