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View Full Version : Marking Ceramic Dinnerware PERMANENTLY



Sean De Gazon
06-07-2008, 10:18 PM
Hi guys and gals,
I need some solid advice on how I can mark unglazed ceramic permanently. I received a 6oz can of Thermark LMC black today and will try it on the clients project when I get home. The job could quite possibly turn me a tidy profit due to the size of the order that needs to get done, but since I don't have much experience with this type of material and the process involved I don't want to count my chicks before the hatch.
The job basically entails marking the clients' logo on the bottom of the dinnerware so it can be identified in the various kitchens and not be mixed and mistaken for any other competitors dinnerware. These ceramic pieces consist of entree dishes, teacups, saucers, roll dishes and dessert trays.
The size of the logo is not too much of a concern I can make it fairly small let's say less between 1/4'' to 1/2'' inch square.
What does matter to the customer is that the logo does not come off when it goes through the dishwasher/dryer at the various kitchens. Any advice on this topic would be really appreciated. As mentioned my main object is to leave a permanent contrasting mark on the underside of these pieces which are all white and as far as I know unglazed ceramic.

Pete Simmons
06-08-2008, 3:53 AM
I have the exact same question for wine glasses.

Sean De Gazon
06-09-2008, 9:47 AM
Hi All,
I tested the dinnerware with the thermark aerosol LMC 12 yesterday. The result was not too bad. But I am concerned about just how practical it is to take on this project. I try to approach each challenge with a positive attitude but I believe tackling this job will be way out of my league.
I learned yesterday that the client needs to have about 50 000 pieces of these pieces marked. That's right you're reading this post correctly. FIFTY THOUSAND individual pieces.
The logistics and time that it would take me to finish a project of that magnitude are beyond my comprehension.
I also have safety concerns about using the Thermark, since on the label there are quite a number of warnings, precautions and ill effects of the product if it is inhaled. When last I checked silicosis and cancer were two serious and deadly diseases.
I wouldn't even bother to guess how much of this stuff I would have to purchase to get this job done.
Also the time it would take to prepare and spray the pieces, make jigs for the different types of items, laser the items , wash off thermark, repackage and return the item to the client.
I think I would probably die of stress before I finished the first couple thousand pieces.
What about the workload on the machine? The repetitive nature of this job would surely be a challenge to any laser no matter the brand. I would also have to remove the auto focus plunger which I don't particularly want to do since there is a rim at the base of the saucers plates and teacups.
Folks am I being paranoid? Is a job like this worth the stress?
Is there an easier way to do this project without using thermark?

Dee Gallo
06-09-2008, 10:00 AM
Sean, in those numbers, it seems silly for the manufacturer to pay someone else to mark their pieces individually when they could just use a glaze stamp or emboss their mark on the bases before firing. Or is this a situation where they are not actually making the pieces but putting their mark on them afterwards?

50,000 of anything seems like it would not only strain your laser, but make you crazy unless you want to be a factory. These are not exactly small pieces that could be done 100 at a time. If it were me, I would tell them to find a pottery and have them glazed on. There are lots of low fire glazes that would not affect the bisqueware. There is also a vitreous paint called Pebeo that you fire in a regular oven which you could either stamp or airbrush.

Save yourself! - dee

Sean De Gazon
06-09-2008, 10:23 AM
Sean, in those numbers, it seems silly for the manufacturer to pay someone else to mark their pieces individually when they could just use a glaze stamp or emboss their mark on the bases before firing. Or is this a situation where they are not actually making the pieces but putting their mark on them afterwards?

50,000 of anything seems like it would not only strain your laser, but make you crazy unless you want to be a factory. These are not exactly small pieces that could be done 100 at a time. If it were me, I would tell them to find a pottery and have them glazed on. There are lots of low fire glazes that would not affect the bisqueware.

Save yourself! - dee

Dee thanks for the reality check, it's good to know we are on the same page. The client is not the manufacturer of the pieces they just need it marked so it can be identified when it gets to the various caterers' kitchens.
I will advise them about your idea about getting them glazed.
I think I'll give them back there samples and keep my sanity.
Have you used thermark for ceramics?

Jack Harper
06-09-2008, 10:30 AM
You might want to take a day and try to find a ceramics company to do what Dee has suggested. If they can and want to do the job, then surely there is a 10% contract finders fee in it for you. Obviously, this could be a tidy sum for doing very little. I would not remain in the middle but rather refer your client to them to work directly, removing you from any job failure liability. Of course you would not want to share any particulars with either side until you have a finders fee deal struck. Just a thought.

Carrol Fleming
06-10-2008, 5:33 AM
Out of interest has anyone any hints and tips on marking ceramic dinnerware. I have the possibility of a job for the catering department of a sports club - thankfully not 50 000 pieces - and would appreciate any hints and tips.
Carrol

Christian Kaplan
06-10-2008, 5:42 AM
for this job, i think it`s better to use a Nd:Yag laser. Try there the Thermark Aplications and it run perfect.

Steve Rozwood
06-11-2008, 5:01 PM
Hi Sean and Caro,

I work as a Technical Service Representative for the CerMark laser markable materials at the Ferro Corporation and I think 50,000 pieces would be an extremely large order to take on, unless you don’t like sleeping J. This can be done though, using our product and an integrated laser marking system on an assembly line. As far as any hints or tips for marking ceramic and glassware, we offer a variety of different products for permanently laser bonding material to these various substrates. If you have any questions feel free to give us a call at 1-800-245-4951 or call me (Steve) directly 724-223-5990 and I will be happy to help you any way that I can.

Stephen Rozwood

Sean De Gazon
06-11-2008, 11:05 PM
Hi Sean and Caro,

I work as a Technical Service Representative for the CerMark laser markable materials at the Ferro Corporation and I think 50,000 pieces would be an extremely large order to take on, unless you don’t like sleeping J. This can be done though, using our product and an integrated laser marking system on an assembly line. As far as any hints or tips for marking ceramic and glassware, we offer a variety of different products for permanently laser bonding material to these various substrates. If you have any questions feel free to give us a call at 1-800-245-4951 or call me (Steve) directly 724-223-5990 and I will be happy to help you any way that I can.

Stephen Rozwood

Hello Stephen
I will be calling you in the near future to have a chat.
I turned down that massive job yeterday. I decided to keep my sanity and try something less stressful.
I also purchased some Lmm6000 paste along with the thermark spray. So far I haven't gotten it to work on another small project that I've been trying my hand at. The material I am trying to mark is quite shiny I guess it could be stainless steel, I used methylated spirit to dilute the paste and used a 1:1 ratio to thin since I am using a brush to apply the paste. However after lasering the nice black mark just comes right off when i clean off the paste. Any Ideas as to what i might be doing wrong?
I'm using 100% power and 45 speed as my setting.

Kevin Huffman
06-12-2008, 12:10 PM
Here is a way you might be able to accomplish this.

Click here. (http://www.signwarehouse.com/tech-support/laser/How%20To/How%20do%20I%20Engrave%20a%20Tile.pdf)

Engrave the tile, put ink into the pores and re clear coat it.

Sean De Gazon
06-12-2008, 4:18 PM
Thanks for the tile tips Kevin any ideas with regard as to why the cermark is coming off the "stainless steel''?

Steve Rozwood
06-13-2008, 9:03 AM
Hi Sean,

I think that the issue here is that you are having is a poor bond to the metal surface. There are many things that may be causing this problem.

First things first, I see that you are running a 45 watt Epilog Mini which is similar to the ULS M35 45 watt that we are running in our lab. At 100 power and 45 speed this may be running too fast to heat the metal surface underneath the LMM-6000 that you applied. In order to get a good bond you must heat the metal surface and the LMM-6000 as well. What we suggest is that customers find a scrap piece of material, the same or closely resembling the material they want to make a mark on, and do a series of power and speed tests. Your test would be probably be at 100 power and descending speeds like 45, 35, 25, 15, 10, 5, and 3. Then scrub the material to find which one gives you the best mark with the best possible bond to the surface.

Another problem may be how you are applying the LMM-6000. When brushing the material on, its hard to control the amount that you apply. There must be a very thin and evenly applied coating of material on the metal surface so the energy of the laser will reach the metal surface. Remember a little goes a long way.

I hope this gets you going in the right direction, If you have any more questions just give me a call or e-mail me at rozwoods@ferro.com (rozwoods@ferro.com) and I will be happy to discuss this further.

Thanks,

Steve

martin g. boekers
07-26-2008, 6:39 PM
There are some alternatives. I used to do contract photography for a hotel supplier in Saint Louis they produced custom marked china for the food service industries. Your job should have been done at that level when the china was ordered.

I've done a bit of research as I had a job request for color logos to be put on client supplied ceramic steins. I didn't find a way to reasonably do this, but learned a few thing in the process.

The china industries screen prints to a decal base which they attach to the piece then give it a glaze overcoat and fire it at high temperatures. The decal burns off and the ink that is very high in metal contact fuses to the china.

I have worked with some decals before and figured I could find a way to make this happen. The ink being very high in metal would never make it through a modified ink jet printer. I have access to kilns so all I had to do was find away to get the ink to the stein. The logos they wanted were 6-8 color and each mug was to be different so that wiped out many options such as stamping or pad printing. Screen printing was costly and time consuming.

I did discover though, that you can get the china decals custom made at a pretty reasonable cost in quantity. My job had each mug custom so that wouldn't work fo me. That would be a possiblity for the job that you were looking at, but even if you had a kiln the firing time is very long and you can only do so many at a time.

I might have cosidered for a job like yours to find a local ink supplier/manufacturer and bring in some samples to see if he could provide you with an ink that you could screen or stamp on that would be permenant and not have to be fired.

Just some ideas, and a final thought .....

some of my "best jobs" and business desicions were the ones I turned down!

Marty

Sean De Gazon
07-27-2008, 12:13 AM
Thanks for your input Marty, I do believe that it was a good decision on my part to turn down that job. I have no regrets.