Adventures with the PM 2000

[Ben Brantley]

Well, it's been exciting. A couple weeks ago I finally got enough free time to finish setting up the saw. I thought I would document a few of the "adventures" I've enjoyed so far. If anyone has had any similar experiences relative to item #3, please let me know. (Or if you just have any suggestions... I'm all ears!)

1. I got the model with the extended fence and table. The table came cupped about 1/32"... just enough to make it difficult to slide stuff from the wooden extension onto the iron wing. PM has sent me a replacement.

2. A few bolts for attaching the fence rails were missing. Fortunately, the thing attaches with about 50 bolts, so I could keep going without waiting for the spare part.

3. Everything booted up great on the first try, but I quickly switched to an 8" dado to do some cuts for some new flower boxes (a great, forgiving first project). When I started up with the dado, it worked fine the first few times. I made some excellent cuts. Thirty minutes later, however, the dado would not start up: the motor spun up for a second or two and then gave up the ghost and shut down.

After a few times of doing that, I found I could only get it to (try to) start again by unplugging the unit.

After doing that once, even unplugging it wouldn't "reset" the switch! (I have since read that possibly I can just hold down the "off" (red) part of the switch for a while and it will trigger a reset in the control circuitry.)

So, I called PM back and discussed this problem. The first CS rep said, "it's definitely your belt that's too loose. We try to set them right from the factory, but sometimes they get a little off." To which I replied, "well, I actually reinstalled this motor myself because I had to take it apart to get the saw off my truck. And I'm pretty sure I got it nice and tight. But, maybe it was user error -- I'll give that a try."

I went out and tightened the belt (it was already pretty tight) as much as reasonably possible. Same dado issue. Note that the regular blades work fine (once the switch resetting happens).

Next call to PM yields a completely different response: "Oh, there's a chance you have an issue with a current limiter in your switch. Can you take the switch apart and take a look and see if your limiter is the wrong one. We didn't test the saw with the dado initially and were shipping units with too small of a limiter."

Fortunately, I'm good at disassembling the switch: I had to do it once already because the saw only came with about a 6 foot power cable. I took it apart and, sure enough, the current limiter had settings for 12, 13, 14, and 15 (presumably amps).

Fast forward a week and my new switch from PM has arrived. It has a limiter that goes up to 17 (having visions of Spinal Tap?). I dial the thing all the way up and install it. Voila... dado working!

I make another evening's worth of cuts with no trouble. Okay, I do have trouble: the arbor is not really long enough for the full stack without a contortionist act on my part to get the arbor nut on. Somehow I do not secure the dado chippers on one installation, and they slam into each other and ruin one of the chipper blades. Newbie mistake, I guess! (Immediate trip to amazon.com results in ordering of two spare chipper blades...)

Now the fun begins. I start it up today and the dado stack won't spin up. Different failure mode this time: the motor spins up into a "half speed," kinda partly-started mode. The dado will spin like this for anywhere from 2 to 10 seconds before the thing shuts down. I sat and played with it for a long time trying to figure out what was going on. It spins up the dado just fine about 25 times out of 100. About 65 times out of 100, it goes into the "stall" state (my term) and eventually shuts down. About 10 times out of 100, it trips the 30A breaker on the dedicated circuit. (!)

I've done a little more reading. A few other people seemed to have sort of similar issues, so it sounds like I might really have a bad motor. I am a little concerned because the first PM rep said, "we can send a tech out, but if it's just a loose belt we'll bill you," and I live way out in the boonies. I'm thinking I have to bite the bullet here, though, and just let them try to fix it.

Ben

[Pat Germain]

That's way too much hassle, Ben. Send me the saw and I'll throw it away for you.

Seriously, I'm sorry to hear you're having such difficulty with PM. I have heard their QC has been suffering since moving overseas. Your story adds credence to what I've heard.

It seems certain the saw's issues are far byond "a loose belt". Therefore, why not let a PM rep take a look? It would be pretty difficult for him to claim you did something wrong so he can bill you and not PM.

Again, bummer you're having such trouble with "The Gold Standard".

[Tim Malyszko]

Wow, I'm so glad you posted this. I've been thinking about upgrading from my contractor saw and its been between the PM 2000 and the Sawstop. I can get the PM now, but need to save a bit more for the Sawstop. Your post has helped me want to hold out longer and buy the Sawstop.

I'm sorry to hear all of your issues and I'm glad you worked them out. Enjoy your new saw.

[Gary Lee]

So sorry to hear your troubles. Fortunately, The PM2000 I had purchased about a year ago has been flawless. In fact I just ran approx 50 dados for 2 walk-in closet projects (with Forrest DadoKing) and never had a glitch. Ran perfectly smooth with no hesitation. I hope that PM takes care of all your needs.
I have the 5Hp not the 3Hp if that makes any difference.
I just thought of something else. Have you had the voltage checked at your receptacle? I do renovation work and have ran across times when there is a severe voltage drop to somewhere because of a number of possibilities (Loose lug in meter can or panel, bad breaker(happens more than you think), etc.).
A simple volt meter will tell you if your in the 210 to 240 range.

[Ben Cadotte]

Sounds like you got a bit of a pain saw. If the belts are as tight as you say they are. I would call the repair guy in. Something is up with starting the motor with a higher load. Sounds like they are having motor issues. Kicking up the amps in the controller is just allowing a higher overlaod on the motor to get it going.

[Lewis Cobb]

The silver lining in this is that Powermatic is now either testing dado blades before they leave, or installing higher current limiters to handle them in the mag starter. This issue came up months ago with a few folks on here as well as woodnet. I've got a PM2000 on order and the dado test is something I will be doing right out of the gate, but I'm planning to open up the mag starter and make sure I have the 17A one now that I read this post. Thanks very much for sharing this info.

Bad motors are a torment, but it sounds from other posts that Powermatic will just swap them out and do whatever it takes to make things right.

[Peter Quinn]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. The belt issue sounds like BS. Those belts would have to be pretty loose before things start spinning, and how would that cause the motor to kick out? I've seen dados spin just fine on older PM66 with two out of three belts broken and the third one tired (I don't endorse this technique, but I've seen it!) It might smoke some belts and make things run a little funky, but to just stall? Those three VX belts have an awful lot of grip even when belt tension is less than perfect. Definitely sounds like bad electrical.

I second the opinion that the best first check on your part is to make sure your receptacle is delivering the proper current for your saw, and if you aren't sure how to test it find a local electrician to do it. It will be cheaper than paying WMH tech if it turns out the error is in your electrical system. Other wise, on a new saw under warranty I'd stop playing tech and make them send a guy out to fix that machine up, but that's just me.

As far as securing the dado stack to the arbor, I don't have specific knowledge of your saw, but on my 66 and most others I've used you can only fit one arbor flange collar with a full 15/16" dado. You typically have one arbor flange to the inside and the nut only to the outside in this case.

Keep positive about the situation. Its a bummer that you have these issues at all from a saw of that quality, but WMH CS is pretty good across the board in my experience, and you'll have a great tool to last a life time, eventually.

[Ben Brantley]

Thanks for the words of support, gentlemen. To respond to a few comments and questions:

1. The suggestion to validate voltage is a good one. This circuit has been driving several other 220V devices for many years, though, including some with higher current ratings than the PM. I'm pretty sure I would have had issues with those prior to installing this saw.

2. Lewis, when you check your switch, you'll see that it's set by default to 15A (or at least mine was). They were telling me to dial it up to 17A, so you might as well do this while you have the thing disassembled. I don't believe it will hurt the motor.

3. My arbor seems only to have one flange. That is, the motor side of the arbor just has a big doohickey that looks kind of permanently attached. (It certainly doesn't float on the arbor like the outside flange, anyway.) I haven't thought of using the nut only on the outside, but that is an interesting suggestion. I wonder what new risks that introduces?

4. I will admit that PM CS has been very good throughout this. On the last call, they even said, "hang in there; it's a good saw despite the troubles you've had." I tend to agree... I think it will be excellent once all the kinks are worked out. I guess I should be glad I am getting to them early in the process. :)

Thanks again guys.

Ben

[Mike Heidrick]

Search woodnet for "Need Help - Powermatic 2000 won't start".

Seems to be an issue that has surfaced before (you make 5 or 6 I know of now) and has always been fixed by PM/WMH and your Dealer.

[Tom Godley]

I have not had any problems with my 2000.

I did have a few missing fasteners because PM ships them with the long rails -- the end of the box was damaged -- had to be the side with the fastener pack!

You can have individual problems what anything you buy -- PM sent me out a new pack ASAP the CS was very good.


I will check on the 17amp on the switch. That is interesting to know -- thanks

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks for the words of support, gentlemen. To respond to a few comments and questions:


3. My arbor seems only to have one flange. That is, the motor side of the arbor just has a big doohickey that looks kind of permanently attached. (It certainly doesn't float on the arbor like the outside flange, anyway.) I haven't thought of using the nut only on the outside, but that is an interesting suggestion. I wonder what new risks that introduces?

Ben

Ben, I'm pretty sure on this one. Sorry for the two flange confusion, my TS (PM 66) has the same set up you describe, permanent flange on the motor side, slip on flange on the nut side. My DeWalt RAS has the two removable flanges.

When I first stacked my full dado (forrest dado king) I had the same quandary, and I stopped and called Forrest, who told me that its standard to leave the outer flange off with a full stack, you don't need the support it provides with a full 1" of blades sandwiched on the arbor, but you do need to insure that you have the full thickness of the nut threaded on the arbor plus a bit (1/16"?) as the first few thousands of the arbor are slightly tapered to help get the blades on and the nut threaded.

I didn't like that answer, so I asked a more experienced wood worker friend, who looked at me strangely and said "Just leave the flange of stupid, do you think nearly a full 1" of dado is going to flex much?"

I didn't like that answer either, so I called WMH to ask if I had gotten a short arbor or something. They were more polite than my friend but essentially said the same thing, so that's how I've been doing it and have never had a problem. If you don't get enough of that nut threaded to secure those blades you could have much worse problems than chipped teeth. I use the outer flange for any stack up to around 3/4" or 13/16" (don't remember exactly when the flange stops fitting) and leave it off beyond that. Might be worth asking CS next time you have them on the phone just to see what they say.

Good luck.

[Jack Camillo]

My pm2000 motor overheated after about twenty 3/4inch wide by 3/4 inch tall dado cuts in 1x pine (box joints for shop cabinet drawers). I had to shut it down and let it cool off (for over an hour). The symptoms were similar to what you described with the motor not starting. I kicked myself for not getting the 5hp. If it turns out the problem is actually the motor not holding the load, I think PM should send a new improved motor that will handle it to everyone who bought it. Another problem I've had is the little aluminum arbor lock. It doesn't fully engage the indent designed for holding the arbor in order to loosen the nut, and it's pretty worn - and this is already a replacement.
I also vote to let PM send you a tech. Look forward to more postings in this thread.
jack

[Dana Vogel]

Ben, This was brought up before by another PM2000 owner and the fix was an updated motor with a beefier capacitor. You should bring this up with PM's techs and they should be fully aware of this fix if not shame on them.

[J. Z. Guest]

Sounds like a bad starter cap to me. That's what happens when companies cut corners and start sourching things from China.

These things should be fixed before the saws are sent out, or if it is a known problem, they should ship fix kits for every saw that was sent.

[Joe Jensen]

Could the motor be wired for 110, or just not wired correctly? Sounds like that, or something wrong with a capacitor...joe

[Ben Brantley]

First, thanks for the information on skipping the flange. That will make my life a LOT easier!

Second, I'm definitely going to call in the cavalry here. I have a busy schedule for the next few weeks, so it could be "fun" scheduling these guys. I'll post an update when I have it.

Ben

[Ben Brantley]

Just a quick update -- I spoke with PM on Thursday and they were more than happy to ship out a new motor. I will have to return the plate from the old motor to complete the warranty replacement process. They also offered to send a technician to do the install, but I think I will wait and just do it myself... it is not particularly difficult.

I've since been trying to crank out some projects with the bum motor. I have found that if I reduce the dado stack to just the outer blades and one chipper, it spins up just fine every time. That's not entirely surprising, since it also worked fine with a regular blade. I'm glad my very first project involved a big dado stack, because I wouldn't have discovered this little issue for who-knows-how-long if it hadn't!

Thanks again for the suggestions here. Hopefully future PM2000 purchasers will read these threads and do this test right from the beginning.

I'll post again when I get the replacement installed.

Ben

[Tom Henderson2]

Hi Ben-

I'd suggest that it might be worth your while to have the tech come out and make sure everything is up to snuff.... You've been mucking around with a wounded saw for long enough.

If the tech comes out you can mount the full dado stack and spin it up a dozen times before he leaves...

Just a thought.

-TH

[Ben Brantley]

Hi Ben-

I'd suggest that it might be worth your while to have the tech come out and make sure everything is up to snuff.... You've been mucking around with a wounded saw for long enough.

If the tech comes out you can mount the full dado stack and spin it up a dozen times before he leaves...


Yeah, I definitely would like to do it that way. The challenge is that (a) I live out in the boonies and (b) my schedule takes me away from home all the time. I do plan to give the technician I was assigned a call, though, just in case it will be easy to get him out here!

Ben

[Tom Veatch]

Haven't read every word of every post on this thread, but my take is:

Capacitor Start Motor + Low Starting Torque = Bad Start Capacitor or Failed Centrifugal Switch.

I've had start capacitors either DOA or go bad in service so often that it's the first thing I look at when a cap start motor won't come up to speed.

[Rob Bailey]

I know someone who had a similar problem with a new PM2000. He changed several switches and motors before the problem was resolved.

The ultimate fix was a new motor of a different brand. If I recall correctly - when the problem occurs the switch is actually damaged and must be replaced.

- Rob

[Ben Brantley]

Hi all,

I thought I would follow up on this saga. I also thought I would be speaking of closure at this point, but alas, read on. :)

PM eventually scheduled a tech to come out and install my new motor. It turns out that the first PM rep scheduled a guy but did not follow through on the procedure, which apparently involves faxing the tech an approval form to authorize their doing the work (and getting paid for it). Then and only then should the tech contact me to schedule the work. Instead, they gave me the tech's number and told me to set up the appointment. No approval form was sent. The tech didn't know he was supposed to get an approval form.

This all came out in the wash when the tech didn't show up in the four hour window on the date of service we agreed upon. I called PM four times that morning for help, and they couldn't figure out who had talked to me or what that person had done. Hours later, they discovered that it wasn't done correctly. They assigned me a new tech and informed me that I would be called to schedule the appointment.

The next day, the old tech called me on his way to my house to get directions. :) Comedy of errors.

Also that next day, new tech calls and says, "I just want you to know that I can't come out until I get paperwork from PM approving the work, because I want to get paid for the work I do. And I don't have a fax machine, so they're airmailing me the approval." Well!

Last week this "new" tech (he's quite old, but a nice guy -- 74!) came out and somehow installed this motor by himself. I was only there for the first hour of the install, but the new motor works great. It spins up the dado with no trouble.

The new fun problem is that this gentleman decided to use the cast iron top as the work surface for the motor exchange. Now my table top has a bunch of gashes and scratches in it from the motors being slid around on the top. I caught him doing it about an hour into the job, but the damage was already done and he was disposing of the old motor at that point. :o

My next round of calls will be to get PM to do something about fixing the table. Despite their undereducated rep (the first time), buggy website, and question CRM system (do they really need me to give them the saw serial number every time?), I really do they think want to do well.

Ben

[Peter Quinn]

Glad to hear you got the motor in working order. Its a little less than I expect of WMH to send out machines with known defects. I mean to say it seems like they are aware of this situation but correct it only when a customer calls to complain? Perhaps they should open the crates and fix it before shipping.

The tech gauged your table? That would have put me over the edge. Very irritating behavior. Given the difficulty of removing the central top and replacing it in situ I'd be asking for a new machine. I'm pretty sure they have cranes and special jigs to do it with precision at the factory. It is quite heavy after all!

Wonder if their PM2700 shaper suffers the same likelihood of defects?

[Matt Ocel]

Ben -

Which motor do you have?

3 hp, 5hp single phase or 5 HP three phase?

[Ben Brantley]

I thought I would revive this old thread just to close the loop for future PM2000 owners who stumble upon it.

As you can read above, a contractor was hired to come out and replace the motor. I was more than happy to have PM do this for me rather than trying it myself, but then I felt bad when it was this 80-year-old (really nice) guy who clearly was going to struggle more than me to put it in.

Anyway, in so doing, he decided to use the cast iron saw top to slide the motors around while swapping them. (Even really nice people can be dumb.) This put some gashes in the top that are mostly cosmetic.

PM ended up sending me a $600 DC for my troubles. Just so we have the final tally right:

1. Replaced warped extension table.
2. Replaced magnetic switch.
3. Replaced motor.
4. Tossed in fancy 2HP canister DC.

While I don't know if I would wish this experience on anyone, I have to credit PM for working at it until they got it right by the customer.

Ben

[Ken Milhinch]

My PM2000 arrived with the mounting holes incorrectly placed in the rail, but the dealer here in Australia had a new rail shipped direct to me from the factory within three weeks. Apart from that the saw is faultless and I have no problem fitting the Forrest Dado set to mine.
Fortunately I had no motor problems such as yours, but hang in there because that saw is worth it.

[Vince Shriver]

[quote=Tim Malyszko;868400]Wow, I'm so glad you posted this. I've been thinking about upgrading from my contractor saw and its been between the PM 2000 and the Sawstop. I can get the PM now, but need to save a bit more for the Sawstop. Your post has helped me want to hold out longer and buy the Sawstop.

Same here, Tim. I've been considering both the PM 2000 and the General 650R. The General is looking better all the time.