Preparing moulding stock

[Drew Sanderson]

What steps to do to prepare stock for moulding? For my current project I am using 4/4 Red Oak of many widths and a Woodmaster 718 with the double knife attachment. Attached is a photo of the profile I am using.

Thank you,
Drew

[David Freed]

When we make blanks for our moulder, we rip to width on our Woodmaster straightedge/gangrip saw, then plane down to about 1/8" oversize, then run them through the moulder.

[James Suzda]

I do mine just the opposite as David. I plane my stock first, then rip it to size after straight line ripping one edge.
BTW, make sure you use the correct cutter first on your pictured profile. Otherwise you will not have any support on the bed for the second profile cut.

[Drew Sanderson]

How close in width do you rip?

Can you explain in more detail your ripping procedures including how you get your first edge straight line ripped?

Thanks for the help!

[Loren Hedahl]

It's always interesting when you get an answer to do it one way from one person, and to do it the opposite way from another person.

Why not try each way and make your own decision as to which is better?

[Drew Sanderson]

probably will :) I am still interested in hearing more plus how people go about getting that first straight edge

[Roger Ronas]

My procedure to get the first straight edge would be.
Use a long ripping guide, a circular saw with decent blade. Over hang the edge about 1/8-1/4 " and rip away.

HTH
RCR

[Peter Quinn]

For any molder/shaper operation I let each head take off 1/16"+the depth of the cut, so in your case mill stock 1/8" over final dimension in thickness and rip to final width. Put me down as a plane then rip guy if you need to plane more than 1/8" to reach rough dimension, otherwise it doesn't matter to me.

If you are going into the molding business it pays to have a straight line saw for preparing stock, other wise your sunk. Seriously. Sunk. A real 4 Head molder or better doesn't hurt either.

But, if you are making some moldings for your self or on a limited commercial basis this link shows one of the coolest ways I've seen to straight line short of a dedicated machine or a BIGGGGG slider. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3kv7d8BXh4

Recognize that guy? I think he's getting kinda famous, boy he's darn good.

For crowns going on ceilings I usually like 14'-16' runs to minimize scarf joints, and frankly I've moved passed the point where there is any thrill in making them myself in my small shop. Its tough to straight line 14' with a hand saw, jointer, router table, table saw jig, slider, or any other suggestion I've yet heard short of a straight like saw. Not impossible mind you, just unpleasant. Its worth it to me to pay the millwork charges to get my material straight lined on at least one edge on all but the smallest projects.

[Tom Hargrove]

When you prepare stock for a molder, the size is of the "blank" is dependent on the amount of material that your knives will remove, and the areas that it will be removed from. I don't think there is a formula that fits all situations.

The stock will need at least one good edge and one good face that is square to the good edge. Prep a sample piece of stock that is slightly oversized in thickness and width, and run it through. Adjustments may be needed to both the molder set-up and the rough stock to get the profile you want.

[Drew Sanderson]

Thank you.

You all have answered a lot of my questions. I am just doing this for myself with no commercial aspirations. I agree about having a mill do a lot of the work but the current material I had did not come from a mill. It was sawn on (not my) site many years ago and they guy was getting rid of the excess.

Thanks again!

Drew

[Brad Shipton]

I just prepped about 400' of trim with a slider and shaper for my home. I am making my own because I am restoring in a craftsman style and the amount of cherry trim would have led me to the poor house if I bought it. The slider makes short work of straight lining, but I still left the stock 1/8" over to make final clean up passes on the shaper with an outboard fence and ease the edges at the same time where needed. How are you finishing the trim? If staining, pay careful attention to the tool marks and keep the feed speed slow. I only had two knives in my insert head (7000rpm), and for the next batches I will be using four to reduce the number of tool marks and reduce the amount of sanding.

Good luck

Brad

[David Freed]

I didn't put the processes in the right order. We usually plane the lumber first, because planing can relieve some stress in the boards if there is any, which could undo your straightedge.

I use this to cut blanks.

http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1609

It is a custom ordered Woodmaster 718, that I further modified before I ever used it. 10 hp, 3 ph, multi-blade, 46 fpm. It straightedges and cuts the blanks in 1 pass

[Drew Sanderson]

david,

That is quite the setup. I guess it is unanimous to plane then straight edge. your reasoning makes sense.

Brad,

As you can tell by the knife profile I too am into the whole craftsman thing. This approach seemed like the only way. Around here no one seems to know what moulding is unless its painted and / or MDF. I think it is just because people like using caulk to fix their mistakes.

[Brad Shipton]

Drew, I purchased the Craftsman Interior trim detail book from Lee Valley and have modelled most after the details in it. 4.5" Base/3.5" side window moudlings/picture rail and a bunch of square stock with chamfers only. I came up with the base trim and side profiles myself and had Weinig cut me custom knives to match. The benefit of craftsman style is they used a lot of square profiles that can be made easily. The down side is craftsman style involves a ton of trim compared to modern painted styles. I think the main reason most stick to the MDF/paint route is the cost. I dropped $4k on 4/4 rough Cherry for 1/2 the house.

Brad

[Drew Sanderson]

Cost I am sure is the real reason especially for those combining the material and labor. Thanks for the tip on the book. The only one I had found so far was the one by Robert Lang. Shop Drawings for Craftsman Interiors: Cabinets, Moldings & Built-Ins for Every Room in the Home. I will have to try and find the one you suggested. Are you done with your project / making moulding?

[Brad Shipton]

Drew, that is the same book I have. I have made all the mouldings/window trim work and the door trim for a portion of the house. I am sanding and finishing now then up it goes. The profile drawings and a typical window trim drawing are attached.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/typ_window_trim.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/SHIPTON_TRIM_INSERT_KNIFE_APR3_08.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/SHIPTON_BASE_INSERT_KNIFE_APR3_08.jpg

Once the trim is up, then it is back to passage door building.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/DSC01023-1.jpg

Brad

[James Suzda]

How close in width do you rip?

Can you explain in more detail your ripping procedures including how you get your first edge straight line ripped?

Thanks for the help!
Are you asking me?
I've got a 16' long straight metal straight edge that is screwed to a 16' long 1/2 x 8 inch wide laminated piece of plywood. I have a saddle that holds my circle saw so it will travel down the straight edge without any deviation side to side, and the blade skims the edge of the plywood.
I position the edge of the plywood where I want to rip and make the cut.
I found this method is so much easier and requires less room than trying to straight line rip on a table saw.
I think I've got pictures someplace in the postings of my ripping jig.

[J.R. Rutter]

probably will :) I am still interested in hearing more plus how people go about getting that first straight edge

Can't beat one of these for speed and ease of use unless you have the power for a dip chain gang saw. I put off buying one for far too long - the payback is fast if you do a lot of straight line ripping. I've seen similar saws on the used market for as "little" as $5K.

http://www.nas.com/~harmonic/NewShop/XR-12C%20rip%20saw.jpg

Does the Woodmaster gang rip setup work well to get straight edges?

[Per Swenson]

Drew,

We have a woodmaster 718 and its made us a ton of money.

Every single stick of lumber in the bar below was roughsawn mahogany

Every piece went through the woodmaster.

Bar rail included.

I straighten every board with the GCSS in the picture after that.

Per

[Drew Sanderson]

Brad,

Would you be willing to post a larger version of typ_window_trim.jpg Great information on that graphic... just too few pixels. Those doors are awesome. That too is my plan... someday... a long time from now!

Per Swenson,

Your work is great inspiration to what can be done with the woodmaster. I have been second guessing my decision by reading forum posting of people who complain about the setup. my only guess is that these people (unlike me) have a large shop and every tool available. For me, I dont have a lot of space so the 4 in 1 save me money and space. It seems like everytime I get into a hobby I always end up making money with the skills. Maybe I too someday I will make as you say, "a ton of money".

Anyone,

Well I purchased the Eurekazone EZ Smart Guide 114" Package to help get my straight edge. I saw the guide that James Suzda mentioned and on that same post was praise for their smart guide. I only have a small table saw so the system makes a lot of sense especially since a few of you have suggested to use a straight edge and a circular saw.

This is a great thread.... I am really learning a lot!

[Per Swenson]

Drew,

The woodmaster is not a automatic tool and there is a learning curve.

It tales awhile for it to become intuitive.

As with anything though, once you wrap your mind around it

and come up a system of your own, it rocks.

Oh, and thanks.

Pper

[Brad Shipton]

I will email you the pdf file.

Not sure if anyone mentioned, but the Straight Line Rip/Glue Line Rip or Gang Rip saws are power hogs. All I have seen (except for logosol version) require 3ph and are usually around 15 - 25hp and need at least 3000cfm DC. Logosol does make a smaller planer/rip machine that looks interesting. The old Diehl's Rip saws are cheap and their newer ones have not changed much since the 50's, but be careful when it comes to the chains.

The setup it sounds like you are going for is more along the lines of the table saw/jig or Festool type arrangement.

Brad

[J.R. Rutter]

The most economical SLR I have seen is a 10 HP. They have a very efficient DC hood, so 1000 CFM is plenty. They are definitely a better fit for a larger shop. But by combining the variable width rip capability of the table saw with straight line capability, they are super fast and can easily handle a variety of rips, like optimizing wider planks for panel glue-ups.

[Drew Sanderson]

Has anyone rigged up feather boards on their woodmaster? Have any pics?
I am concerned about keeping the straight edge against the guide when gang ripping.

Brad,

Yes, I think setup I have chosen is more appropriate for my space and budget.

Thank you very much for the pdf! What software did you draw it with?

Did you have knives made for everything or did you just use router bits (perhaps on router table or shaper) for some of the pieces?

Where did you get your knives made?

[Joe Von Kaenel]

Folks,

This is a little off the original topic, but, I wanted to start making custom molding with my Woodmaster 712. In Northeast Ohio, most contractors and handymen say people don't want to spend extra money for custom moldings, they just want stuff from the big box stores.
How did you get people to understand that custom molding is better quality and worth the higher cost? Thanks

Joe

[Drew Sanderson]

This somehow got lost:

Has anyone rigged up feather boards on their woodmaster? Have any pics?
I am concerned about keeping the straight edge against the guide when gang ripping.

Brad,

Yes, I think setup I have chosen is more appropriate for my space and budget.

Thank you very much for the pdf! What software did you draw it with?

Did you have knives made for everything or did you just use router bits (perhaps on router table or shaper) for some of the pieces?

Where did you get your knives made?

[David Freed]

I had thought about using a variation of a featherboard, but if you have random width lumber you would have to be adjusting it for different width boards, and that takes time. That is why I went with the small powerfeeders. They hold the boards against the in and out feed fences with no adjusting.

[Drew Sanderson]

can you show these powerfeeders you speak of?

[David Freed]

can you show these powerfeeders you speak of?

Here it is for sale on the internet. There are lots of places that sell it.

http://www.internationaltool.com/woodworking/tools/DEL36865.html

On my Woodmaster.

http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1609&pos=1
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1609&pos=4
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1609&pos=3

[Brad Shipton]

Drew, been away for a while.

I use Autocad.

I used a 4hp, 1 1/4" dia spindle shaper for all of the profiles with a Steff 2034 power feeder, but many have used routers too. I have a multi function cutter from Garniga that I used to ease the edges. The custom profiles were used in an insert head from Garniga also. The knives are 5/16" thick corrogated back blades cut by Weinig in the US. They make moulders (4 - 8head machines to mass produce mouldings at incredible speeds). Some of the tools I used are a little more than many hobbiest's use, so beware, the tooling I am mentioning is expensive. It might not be what you are looking for.

Brad

[J.R. Rutter]

The most economical SLR I have seen is a 10 HP.

I know that this is overkill for this thread, but in the interest of posterity, I wanted to mention that I ran across a current production 7.5 HP, 1 PH Oliver SLR saw. Expensive - yes. Big - yep. Overly specialized - probably. But what they do, they do well (and fast)...

[Drew Sanderson]

I have prepared some stock for the run at this point and have a question about cutting depth with the moulding knives. The stock I have prepared is 7/8" with the final moulding being 3/4". My question is what do you do to prevent from cutting too deep? Do you make some sort of depth stop and clamp it to the machine somewhere? Do you trust that x number of revolutions = x amount of depth change? One other thing... Do you agree for crown that 7/8" is a good place to thickness down to before moulding or would you go smaller?

Thanks everyone!

Drew

[Per Swenson]

Drew,

The very first thing you want to do is run that knife

down 1/8th of a inch in to the sacrificial bed.

Then crank it back up. Cut a 13/16ths gauge block

and bring the highest part of the knife down to it.

Cut a 18 inch long piece of test stock and run it through

to verify your finished back cut piece measures 13/16ths.

Repeat for the finished or top cut.

As that old feller once said, trust but verify.

Hope this helps.

Per

[Drew Sanderson]

The very first thing you want to do is run that knife down 1/8th of a inch in to the sacrificial bed.

Per

If you look at the original drawing shown the knives I have dont have parting legs on each side so do I still need to do that?




Cut a 13/16ths gauge block and bring the highest part of the knife down to it. Cut a 18 inch long piece of test stock and run it through to verify your finished back cut piece measures 13/16ths.
Per

So you make your cut in one pass and there is no need to make multiple passes easing the knives down deeper?

Thanks for the quick and quality response!

Drew

[Per Swenson]

Sorry Drew,

No legs, no need.

Right, one pass per side.

1/16th is no problem for any molder.

As long as you have adequate chip collection.

You should be just fine.

I actually use the Lee Valley set up blocks.

But really thats a conceit and you can do just as well making your own out of scrap. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=45089&cat=1,240,41064&ap=1

[Drew Sanderson]

Per,

One pass sounds nice and much less complicated than what i had in mind! Hopefully tomorrow I will have the opportunity to give it a run and see what happens. I can see where those set up blocks would be very helpful.

Thanks for all the help.

Drew