Beware of Elite tools [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Ben Cadotte

06-02-2008, 2:55 PM

I was wondering the same thing. Any chance we've got some trade experts on the creek who could explain this?

Not an expert but I work for international airline and ship parts internationally daily (our own parts). The brokerage fee is a charge to pay UPS, Fed EX, etc... for their expenses incurred for using their bonded warehouses. Basically they pay the governments involved fees and have insurances to cover the items they ship. Because they are bonded with the governments involved they can process and move goods faster without having to wait for a Government inspector to clear the items. They have proven they can be trusted and they do things according to the rules. So for a fee, and training, and paperwork processing, they are allowed to bypass the inspection procedures. Gov't inspectors can still inspect any package they want. But they don't have to wait for them to clear every one. Just the ones the Govt want to sample inspect. For us the biggest savings is getting items out of customs quicker. We have been doing alot of work in Rome, Italy and if we don't use an agent, it can take 2 or 3 days to get something through. With an agent it may only take a couple hours. We had been doing alot of work in Israel and if you don't use an agent there it could take weeks!!!

You can use your own agent. It does not have to be with your shipper. But normally that adds time and more expense. Unless its a high priced item. Like us shipping a jet engine. We actually bid out for an agent to save money. Normally its a percentage of the value of the item. With a 2 million dollar motor, it pays to shop around for an agent!

I suspect there is a minimum fee. So less expensive items could become really expensive if going across borders. It also deppends on what is being shipped. Electronics and such they tend to watch like a hawk. Our company sent a new laptop to one of our reps in Israel one time. They put down electrical and $500 for the value on a new laptop. The guy it was going to had to go to customs and pay a fee, additional customs tax, and a fine for false information on the original shipper!! Just because someone at our company was trying to save a buck! If I remember right it was over $330 to get it out!! Would have been like $80 if done correctly.

Tom Godley

06-02-2008, 3:58 PM

I get and send items internationally all the time - I always make sure to use the postal system in whatever country I am sending things back to the US - same when shipping out internationally. I use USPS.

This only works for smaller items -- not a large tool.. I have also used Fedex from some countries but only after carefully looking over the costs.

I had problems with UPS years ago -- and started using the Canada Post. I am not sure why the fees are so high with UPS. I guess they can get them

NAfA only applies to items that are actually manufactured in Canada/US/ MEX -- the other "Country of Origin" parts are subject to whatever duty applies.

Dick Jones

06-02-2008, 4:22 PM

Big gripe with elite tools is that the did not disclose these hidden costs. They Said Free shipping. When I contacted them reguard hidden costs there reply was --Tough

Mike SoRelle

06-02-2008, 4:25 PM

Big gripe with elite tools is that the did not disclose these hidden costs. They Said Free shipping. When I contacted them reguard hidden costs there reply was --Tough

Well, honestly, as any US Customs officer will tell you, it's your responsibility to understand the laws, not the vendor.

Same situation with duty free.

It's for the same reason that there are so many American based companies that won't ship to Canada.

Ben Cadotte

06-02-2008, 4:33 PM

Big gripe with elite tools is that the did not disclose these hidden costs. They Said Free shipping. When I contacted them reguard hidden costs there reply was --Tough

If a reply to me was "Tough". Thats the last thing they would say or sell to me. I would understand them not wanting to reimburse you for the fee's. I would bet somewhere in their literature they have a disclaimer about international shipping. But being rude in reply is just asking to go out of business.

Mike Henderson

06-02-2008, 4:34 PM

NAFTA only applies to things manufactured in the countries under NAFTA. So if the parts were made in Canada, there would be no duties. If the parts were made somewhere else and imported into Canada, then shipped into the US, duties may apply.

But in any case, it seems that the problem here was in the brokerage fees and not in customs duties.

I agree they should have warned you about the brokerage fees. They surely know about the cost but probably did not tell you because it might have affected your decision to buy. But suprising the customer with extra costs is not a good way to do business. You were right to complain to them and to post here.

Mike

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 4:47 PM

Hi Dick,

I think you're missing the point made by everyone here, it's not the vendor charging you or even incurring these costs. UPS charged you and you incurred the costs by importing product. I've never dealt with Elite Tools, but I find it hard to believe that their first response was "TOUGH" as most companies want repeat business.

Matt Meiser

06-02-2008, 4:49 PM

I have to agree with Dick even if the charges are legitimate. I put over $100 worth of stuff in a cart at Elite and it said I got free shipping. I don't see anything that says there will be brokerage fees. They might not be required to do so, but not disclosing that is bad business.

If it were me I'd probably have refused delivery and I'd be talking to my credit card company if I got the response you got. In my mind, its no different than if they advertised free shipping but charged you an undisclosed or hidden handling fee.

Shawn Honeychurch

06-02-2008, 4:56 PM

Big gripe with elite tools is that the did not disclose these hidden costs. They Said Free shipping. When I contacted them reguard hidden costs there reply was --Tough

As has been said before, shipping is not customs.

You did get free shipping, just not free customs.

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 4:56 PM

I agree they should have warned you about the brokerage fees. They surely know about the cost but probably did not tell you because it might have affected your decision to buy. But suprising the customer with extra costs is not a good way to do business. You were right to complain to them and to post here.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I'm going to completely disagree with you on this. I can't count the number of times (before I wised up to brokerage fees) that I bought tools and/or supplies from an American company only to be hit with these fees. When I called the company about it they were usually in the dark about the exhorbitant fees charged. Even today when I talk to sales reps from large U>S. mail order companies as often as not their response is along the lines of "I heard something like that". It's not the responsibility of a vendor to be informed of other companies cross border policies, it's the responsibility of the consumer to get the best bang for his buck.

I also feel that your statement about the company knowing about the costs but hiding them is at the very least uninformed. What could the company possibly haved gained by not sending the items by post. The OP never did mention if he asked for UPS shipping or if he had agreed to UPS shipping or had asked for postal shipping. Just a couple of weeks ago I purchased something from BCTW and clearly checked the box for USPS, but the item was shipped FEDEX. Given your statement am I to assume that BCTW was conning me with the choice of clicking the USPS box?

David DeCristoforo

06-02-2008, 5:08 PM

"Well, honestly, as any US Customs officer will tell you, it's your responsibility to understand the laws, not the vendor."

There is is again. That "logic" that cannot be argued with and yet forgives the vendor all responsibility for deceptive practices and puts the burden squarely on the shoulders of the buyer. But we all know quite well that these costs were not disclosed deliberately because the company would have probably lost the sale if the buyer had been aware of the extra "hidden" costs. So while they acted within the letter of the law, they really did not act in "good faith" and as a result, instead of losing a sale they have lost a customer. Maybe many customers because this will be told, as it is being told here, and others will not do business with the vendor based on this discussion. Maybe the vendor does not care, and that is their prerogative. But not what I would consider "ethical" or "sensible" business practice.

Years ago, I read a book called "How to Sell Anything to Anybody" by a "sales guru" named Joe Girard. He talked about what he called "Joe Girard's Law of Two Fifty". What it boiled down to was that the "average" person is acquainted with 250 other people. And while a happy customer might never mention you, if you had an unhappy customer, you could pretty much bet your last dollar that all 250 of those people were going to hear about it. Then you start to figure out how many of those people are going to tell their friends and acquaintances what they heard and, after a few "degrees of separation", there are a lot of people who are going to hear about how bad you are.

Don't care? Fine. Just keep slipping it to the customer. You know how many tool vendors have come and gone since I started doing woodwork? Well, I don't either really, but I can assure you that it is more than the number doing business right now. The one's who are still in business are the ones who, over the years, provided the best service, not the ones who advertised the lowest prices.

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 5:17 PM

Hi David,

I'm going to first ask you to read my post right above your's, which I probably posted as you were writing yours.

I think what's happening here is something that's seen on Canadian forums all the time......complaining about UPS and FEDEX's business practises when it comes to cross border shopping.

It is not the fault of the vendor. If I were to list all the U.S. woodworking vendors I do business with it would be a long list. If I were to list all the vendors who tell me not to use either of these companies for shipping, it would be a non-existant list. It's just a fact that not every (probably more like most) sales rep knows of the costs incurred with cross border shipping by these carriers.

David DeCristoforo

06-02-2008, 5:22 PM

"...It is not the fault of the vendor... not every...sales rep knows of the costs incurred with cross border shipping"

This is where we must disagree. I think this taxes credibility. Maybe they don't know the first time. But after that, they know. And they should be willing to make their customers aware of it.

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 5:28 PM

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one :) .

Derek Tuchscherer

06-02-2008, 5:39 PM

I have ordered several times from the US and been hit by the FedEx/UPS charges, and no matter how you look at it, it is still not the vendor who is "sticking it" to anyone. But rather it is UPS/FedEx who is "Sticking" people. When I receive something from the US via these two companies it is at least $50 extra, and that is if there is no duties or taxes, if these are applicable they are on top of the "Brokerage Fee". Now if the package comes via USPS and Canada Post the charge is .....get this....$5.00! So clearly it is UPS/Fedex who is doing the "sticking", go tot heir websites and try finding out what the fees are...you won't find it. The cost to clear something through customs almost always lies with the importer...not the exporter. If you were to drive to Canada and buy tools, do you expect every retailer to tell you..."you might have to pay duty/taxes/surcharges at the border"? No, that is your responsibility, not that of the vendor. As far as putting items in a cart on a web page, I haven't found one yet that talks about UPS/Fedex Brokerage fees being extra.

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 5:42 PM

I just want to add something to my prvious posts on this topic. I think that a thread title such as this one does nobody any good. As I stated before this is a subject that most Canadian woodworkers are familiar with. The difference on Canadian forums is that the thread title is directed towards the carrier company, not the vendor. If this were not so, you would see numerous company names out there to be wary of (including Woodcraft, BCTW, Woodworker Supply and many many more from my own experiences), the vast majority of them stand up companies.

As I mentioned before, despite the fact that they are in my backyard, I have never had any dealings with Elite Tools, but I do feel that there is an unfair slant to this thread due to the thread title. We should be supporting NA businesses, not slamming them because of costs incurred by ourselves because we haven't done our homework.

David DeCristoforo

06-02-2008, 6:31 PM

"We should be supporting NA businesses, not slamming them because of costs incurred by ourselves because we haven't done our homework."

Well we can agree on that!:) Whew. But only on the first part.:rolleyes: What do you think would happen if the vendor in question were to modify their ordering page so that instead of simply stating that shipping was free, they were to state that while shipping might be free, there would undoubtedly be substantial customs fees that would have to be paid by the customer? Would the customer appreciate the disclosure and order anyway? Probably not. More likely the customer would add up the costs and realize that the overall cost would be less if the order was placed with a US vendor even with "in country" shipping costs factored in. Is it possible that this is why the disclosure is not made and not because the vendor is unaware of the additional fees?

Mike Henderson

06-02-2008, 6:42 PM

I also feel that your statement about the company knowing about the costs but hiding them is at the very least uninformed. What could the company possibly haved gained by not sending the items by post. The OP never did mention if he asked for UPS shipping or if he had agreed to UPS shipping or had asked for postal shipping. Just a couple of weeks ago I purchased something from BCTW and clearly checked the box for USPS, but the item was shipped FEDEX. Given your statement am I to assume that BCTW was conning me with the choice of clicking the USPS box?
I have to assume that Elite Tools has been in business for a while and has shipped quite a bit of stuff to the US. If so, then they certainly have heard complaints about this issue before. To think they haven't is to not give much credit to the business people.

So if I assume they know about the charges (which I think is a reasonable assumption) then they have the moral duty to disclose that fact to potential customers. A note on their web site would be sufficient.

Mike

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 6:49 PM

Hi David,

Anything is possible. Would you do me a favour? Check all the US vendors pages and see which ones mention this fact for Canadian buyers, I don't think you'll find many at all, and I can tell you from personal experience that this fact is not mentioned on phone orders either. What I'm trying to get at here is that it's not only possible, but more than likely that a sales rep who works for a small Canadian company like Elite has no idea about the brokerage fees that UPS ans FEDEX charge, afterall how many US orders do you think they process.

You guys in the States are lucky in being able to buy just about everything without considering border tariffs. Even when you consider the large Canadian manufacturers 2 have US distribution centers and the others have US based distributors for their products. This situation (the brokerage fees) is something that VERY rarely happens to you guys with woodworking stuff. On the other hand up here it's a very common thing to order cross border and we have a lot more experience dealing with it. Therefore we blame the carriers, not the vendors.

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 6:50 PM

I have to assume that Elite Tools has been in business for a while and has shipped quite a bit of stuff to the US. If so, then they certainly have heard complaints about this issue before. To think they haven't is to not give much credit to the business people.

So if I assume they know about the charges (which I think is a reasonable assumption) then they have the moral duty to disclose that fact to potential customers. A note on their web site would be sufficient.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Would you also do me the same favour I asked of David, and check all the US suppliers for such notes for Canadian purchasers. Thanks.

Chuck Wintle

06-02-2008, 6:51 PM

Lee Valley and OneWay are examples of two Canadian firms with large US customer bases that maintain operations in NY state to facilitate shipping and customers issues with cross border situations.

They have a depot or store in Ogdensburg New Yrok.

David DeCristoforo

06-02-2008, 7:02 PM

"Anything is possible. Would you do me a favour? Check all the US vendors pages and see which ones mention this fact for Canadian buyers, I don't think you'll find many at all, and I can tell you from personal experience that this fact is not mentioned on phone orders either"

You have a point. However... I have had a "sideline" since 1998, selling "fine" hardwood chessboards mostly via the internet. Many of these have been shipped to people in other countries, not only Canada, but all over the UK, Germany, and even one to Russia. And I never took the customer's money until I was able to inform them of the net cost to get the thing into their hands. So, I know it can be done.

Glen Gunderson

06-02-2008, 7:02 PM

Hi Mike,

Would you also do me the same favour I asked of David, and check all the US suppliers for such notes for Canadian purchasers. Thanks.

Most do have a "taxes and duties are the buyer's responsibility" line somewhere on the page, but it's usually fairly inconspicuous and I've never seen anyone outline the actual charges in black and white. Usually they have little to gain by doing that, especially since until recently, the courier companies themselves were hesitant to outline their charges. I think it would be a little much to expect a retailer to give an estimate. In my opinion, the only thing Elite tools did wrong is not mention somewhere that duties and taxes were possible and were the buyer's responsibility, but really, it's the buyer's responsibility to educate himself when it comes to international transactions, though I can certainly understand why someone from the USA wouldn't be as aware of such things.

Personally, I generally won't buy from an American mail order company that uses UPS or FedEx exclusively. Canada Post charges a flat $5 fee for brokerage so I usually only buy from companies that will ship via USPS. On some big ticket items I don't mind using couriers because the $50 or $60 brokerage fee isn't all that much on a $1000+ item.

Mike Henderson

06-02-2008, 7:12 PM

Hi Mike,

Would you also do me the same favour I asked of David, and check all the US suppliers for such notes for Canadian purchasers. Thanks.
The fact that someone else doesn't do something doesn't relive you of your moral obligations.

As I understand your argument, as long as one person does something wrong, you have the right to do the same wrong? Not in my moral universe.

Mike

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 7:33 PM

The fact that someone else doesn't do something doesn't relive you of your moral obligations.

As I understand your argument, as long as one person does something wrong, you have the right to do the same wrong? Not in my moral universe.

Mike

Hi Mike,

That's not my argument at all. My argument (if there is one?) is two fold. First that it's the responsibility of the consumer to know what international taxes, duty or brokerage fees are going to cost him. Second, that the bad will of this threads title line should be directed towards the carrier companies, not towards the vendor.

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 7:39 PM

You have a point. However... I have had a "sideline" since 1998, selling "fine" hardwood chessboards mostly via the internet. Many of these have been shipped to people in other countries, not only Canada, but all over the UK, Germany, and even one to Russia. And I never took the customer's money until I was able to inform them of the net cost to get the thing into their hands. So, I know it can be done.

Hi David,

You are to be commended for your diligence in that. However, not everyone goes that extra mile (nor in my opinion should they have to). I have bought tools from some well known cottage industry tool makers in the States. They had no clue as to the extra charges involved in shipping to Canada by these two companies. Their main concern was getting the tools to me as fast as possible. They were amazed when I told them how much extra that 2-4 days would cost me.

Mike Henderson

06-02-2008, 7:44 PM

Hi Mike,

That's not my argument at all. My argument (if there is one?) is two fold. First that it's the responsibility of the consumer to know what international taxes, duty or brokerage fees are going to cost him. Second, that the bad will of this threads title line should be directed towards the carrier companies, not towards the vendor.
I disagree. If Elite tools knew of the fee (and I have to assume they did), they have a moral obligation to make that fact known to their customers. They cannot "wash their hands" and simply say "That's a carrier cost and not my cost."

That same moral obligation exists for US companies who sell into Canada. But you cannot use the deficiencies of one company to justify the deficiencies of another. This thread is about Elite Tools and the criticisms directed towards them are justified. If you'd like to complain about certain US companies, you should name them and lodge your criticism towards them specifically.

Mike

Glen Gunderson

06-02-2008, 7:45 PM

The fact that someone else doesn't do something doesn't relive you of your moral obligations.

As I understand your argument, as long as one person does something wrong, you have the right to do the same wrong? Not in my moral universe.

Mike

By that same token, one company should not be held to a higher standard than all others. It's generally become accepted in the retail industry that the customer should educate himself on tax and brokerage issues since few companies offer any real details about this other than the odd one line blurb.

Some companies have made efforts to alleviate that burden somewhat and for that I applaud and support them. Woodcraft is one example. They have teamed up with Canada Post to ship items to Canada duty free. Because of that, they are now my preferred American mail order retailer. I wish every company could make such efforts, but for smaller operations it's sometimes not possible to do so (though as David mentioned above, it is possible give the customer an idea of what they'll be paying).

Perhaps the thread title should be "Beware of ordering from Canada" rather than "Beware of Elite Tools." I think the company is being unfairly singled out for merely following an industry wide standard when it comes to international mail order. I do agree it's kind of poor practice to not make the customer aware of his options, but it's something Canadian internet shoppers deal with daily when ordering from the United States. Like it or not, it seems that it's the accepted way of doing business. Meanwhile, I'll do my best to only order from companies that make the effort to help the customer whether it be through initiatives like Woodcraft's or being willing to ship via USPS to Canadians.

michael flay

06-02-2008, 8:33 PM

Brent Smith

06-02-2008, 9:08 PM

If you'd like to complain about certain US companies, you should name them and lodge your criticism towards them specifically.

Mike

It seems Mike, that you want to dissect what I write and answer to single sentences, so I'll do the same here. I think I've made it clear that I don't want to complain about any vendor, nor do I feel that any blame should be placed on any vendor. Rather, the 'blame', if it should be placed on any company, should be placed on the carrier companies for charging overblown brokerage fees. Once again though I'll state that my stance is that it is the consumer who is ultimately responsible for knowing where his dollar will be spent.

Brian Penning

06-02-2008, 9:19 PM

Big gripe with elite tools is that the did not disclose these hidden costs. They Said Free shipping. When I contacted them reguard hidden costs there reply was --Tough

Er...Dick...the Shipping was, in fact, free. :)

Mike Henderson

06-02-2008, 9:41 PM

It seems Mike, that you want to dissect what I write and answer to single sentences, so I'll do the same here. I think I've made it clear that I don't want to complain about any vendor, nor do I feel that any blame should be placed on any vendor. Rather, the 'blame', if it should be placed on any company, should be placed on the carrier companies for charging overblown brokerage fees. Once again though I'll state that my stance is that it is the consumer who is ultimately responsible for knowing where his dollar will be spent.
Well, here's your specific comment to me earlier:

"Would you also do me the same favour I asked of David, and check all the US suppliers for such notes for Canadian purchasers. Thanks."

That certainly seems to me that you are complaining that some US companies are not disclosing such fees.

And regarding the morality of not disclosing all the fees, let me be even more succinct and say see post 38.

Mike

[In addition to the moral requirement to disclose all the fees, it's just good business. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to realize that your customer will be upset by unexpected fees. The company will make more friends and have a better, more successful business by being honest and forthcoming to their customers. Isn't that the way you would like to be treated?]

Steve Flavin001

06-02-2008, 9:51 PM

which while not a definitive source sheds a little light. http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/customs/a/shopshipcanada_2.htm

Jim Becker - see if the paragraph on NAFTA is relevent to your input.

Craig Summers

06-02-2008, 9:58 PM

Not an expert but I work for international airline and ship parts internationally daily (our own parts). The brokerage fee is a charge to pay UPS, Fed EX, etc... for their expenses incurred for using their bonded warehouses. ...... We have been doing alot of work in Rome, Italy and if we don't use an agent, it can take 2 or 3 days to get something through. With an agent it may only take a couple hours.....

2 or 3 days in Italy? are you sure that isnt a misprint? Shouldnt that be 2-3 months ? :rolleyes:

Brent Smith

06-03-2008, 5:59 AM

Well, here's your specific comment to me earlier:

"Would you also do me the same favour I asked of David, and check all the US suppliers for such notes for Canadian purchasers. Thanks."

That certainly seems to me that you are complaining that some US companies are not disclosing such fees.

And regarding the morality of not disclosing all the fees, let me be even more succinct and say see post 38.

Mike

[In addition to the moral requirement to disclose all the fees, it's just good business. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to realize that your customer will be upset by unexpected fees. The company will make more friends and have a better, more successful business by being honest and forthcoming to their customers. Isn't that the way you would like to be treated?]

Life is too short Mike....You're right about everything :rolleyes:.

David Eisan

06-03-2008, 7:34 AM

Hello there,

Congratulations, you just bought some experience.

From your post, it appears you have never imported before. If you had, you would have known that shipping and brokerage are not the same and never have been. Brokerage is always the responsibility of the importer. Anyone who imports knows this. Ignorance of this bit of shipping trivia does not excuse you of paying it, or allow you to blame the shipper.

Whenever I buy from the States, I always insist that they ship USPS, if they cannot, I do not buy, because I know UPS will charge their outrageous brokerage fee.

I know it stings now, but you and everyone else reading this who plans to buy/import from another country will know to check with the shipping company what the brokerage fees are next time.

David.

Matt Meiser

06-03-2008, 8:53 AM

You guys from Canada seem to think that everyone up there knows about it, meaning the retailer probably would have known. For most of us in the US, who's interaction with Canadian retailers is probably pretty much limited to companies like Lee Valley, OneWay, and Dowelmax who have all taken proactive steps to protect their customers from these fees. I'll agree that it sounds like they didn't do anything wrong in terms of the law. Though I do think a good lawyer would be able to argue that free shipping means no fees from the shipper--meaning UPS. I also think if it were me that my credit union would back me up and reverse the charges. But I also agree that all retailers on both sides of the border should disclose any possibility of additional fees to anyone.

I guess the title of this thread should be "Beware of buying Canadian."

Mike SoRelle

06-03-2008, 9:06 AM

I guess the title of this thread should be "Beware of buying Canadian."

It's not just Canada, perhaps it should be "Beware of buying outside your own country"

Derek Tuchscherer

06-03-2008, 9:17 AM

Though I do think a good lawyer would be able to argue that free shipping means no fees from the shipper--meaning UPS. I also think if it were me that my credit union would back me up and reverse the charges. But I also agree that all retailers on both sides of the border should disclose any possibility of additional fees to anyone.

Hey Matt, the problem is, it is not Elite who charge the extra fees...it is UPS, in essence they drop your package off and either demand the brkerage fees on the spot or you get sent a bill after the fact. So, there is no charge to reverse...just one to pay or have it go to a collection agency etc. I am pretty sure the OP can confirm that he paid no "shipping fees" to the vendor, but rather he paid "brokerage fees" to UPS. So really, why is nobody attacking UPS for not contacting the customer and saying...."do you realize we'll charge you $XX.XX to get this across the border?"

Mark Kosmowski

06-03-2008, 9:35 AM

How is "brokerage" not a sub-component of "shipping"? The thing has to cross the border to be shipped, right?

I can understand the consumer rightfully reading "free shipping" as "the thing gets from point of origin to point of delivery with no charge". If the vendor advertises "free shipping" they should contract with a shipper that can provide this service or eat the entire cost of shipping (defined as, getting the thing from point of origin to point of delivery) as a cost of doing business.

Alternatively, the vendor can advertise "free domestic shipping" and avoid the whole sticky wicket in the first place.

Ok, back to reality from my outburst of idealism - how does a consumer-importer take care of the paperwork themselves to avoid the fee? Is this even an option with UPS or FedEx (or other non-postal carriers)?

mreza Salav

06-03-2008, 10:24 AM

If I may add my 2c:
Almost all US vendors (with the exception of one or two, just like the few Canadian ones) do the same practice. So, it is unfair to expect one thing from one vendor (being Canadian or not) and hit it with such a thread while almost all others are doing the same thing. So if it is a bad practice, why do you blame on particular vendor?

Ben Cadotte

06-03-2008, 10:48 AM

Ok, back to reality from my outburst of idealism - how does a consumer-importer take care of the paperwork themselves to avoid the fee? Is this even an option with UPS or FedEx (or other non-postal carriers)?

A consumer can get out of paying the fee buy using the Post office. A broker only helps speed up the package! It is not a fee you have to pay! It is for convience! Reason sending by Post is it goes through the regular channels. And may have to sit for several days until a gov't inspector passes it through. I don't think there is an option to not do it through UPS or Fedex. As they use their own "bonded" facility. Ie. if you ship with them it has to go through their facility. You have to pay the charge.

michael osadchuk

06-03-2008, 11:03 AM

If you guys want to save the broker fees, simple clear the customs paperwork yourself and you will only have to pay any taxes and duties owing no brokerage fees. I do this all the time when I order stuff and have it shipped to canada. By the way I have ordered from Oneida, and Skillers in the US and at checkout there is no mention of broker fees, As Brent said I don't think you can blame the vendor I believe one has to due there homework.

Michael,
Can you describe what's involved "clear(ing) the customs paperwork" for Canadians?
Does this involve having a shipment from the U.S. halted at the border with Canada and having to personally attend (cross into the U.S.?) at the border, etc.?

Citizen/consumer forums like this are a terrific way to educate ourselves (and perhaps also merchandisers in both countries) on how to avoid rip offs and be more consumer friendly. A business may not be morally responsible for advising a cross border buyer of a stiff fee associated with a particular shipper but that business will lose that customer and likely many others.

Apart from Rockler already mentioned here, there are U.S. outfits like Hartville to cottage manufacturers like Lee Stryon (re Shark Guards for ts) who provide those cautions, recommend using United States Postal Service into Canada. These are the outfits which over time become trusted and recommended by peers.

michael

Bruce Benjamin

06-03-2008, 11:11 AM

It's not just Canada, perhaps it should be "Beware of buying outside your own country"

Well said! This is the most true statement in this entire thread. Adhering to this advice will not only solve the potential shipping/brokerage/customs problems but several others as well. With respects to vendors, this has been my policy for a long time and I've never regretted it.

Bruce

Matt Meiser

06-03-2008, 3:52 PM

It's not just Canada, perhaps it should be "Beware of buying outside your own country"

I could agree with that--I was just thinking that "everyone" in Canada seems to know about it but few in the US did until now.

Cary Swoveland

06-03-2008, 8:38 PM

...The brokerage fee is a charge to pay UPS, Fed EX, etc... for their expenses incurred for using their bonded warehouses. Basically they pay the governments involved fees and have insurances to cover the items they ship. Because they are bonded with the governments involved they can process and move goods faster without having to wait for a Government inspector to clear the items. They have proven they can be trusted and they do things according to the rules. So for a fee, and training, and paperwork processing, they are allowed to bypass the inspection procedures...

Ben, what you say makes perfect sense. I would just ask one question: how is it that Canada Post, which also has costs for warehousing, paperwork, training, etc., charges a brokerage fee of only $5 per package?

Cary

Ben Cadotte

06-03-2008, 9:06 PM

Ben, what you say makes perfect sense. I would just ask one question: how is it that Canada Post, which also has costs for warehousing, paperwork, training, etc., charges a brokerage fee of only $5 per package?

Cary

I don't know for a fact but I have a good idea. Fedex and UPS use strictly their own facilities. When you ship international with them. It still goes through their own facilities. Just in a "bonded" area. So its all their people.

As for post I only know how it works at the airport. The items go from the plane to the customs building. From their they go to the mail facility. So the post is not actually walking the packages through. They just wait for them. The fee is most likely for the paperwork tracking.

I think a big part of it is, Fedex and UPS charge for the convience for faster service. And the fact they can get away with it.

Like I said we use a broker for our "immediate" need items. We currently have Alitalia in Rome, doing maintenance checks on our planes that operate in Europe. So all the parts we ship there from the US has to go through customs. Anything we need really fast. We use a broker. Other things we wait for it to go through the system.

Brian Kent

06-03-2008, 10:50 PM

I wanted to see how a great company - known for products and service - handles the issue. I went to lie-nielsen.com and looked on the first page. There on the home page is a line called "Canadian Orders". Here is what you see when you click on this line:

A couple of sentences about exchange rates, and then:

"Most orders will ship direct from Warren Maine via UPS ground or the US Postal Service. UPS has a system that will allow us to combine several orders as it crosses customs, and incur only one brokerage charge that we will take care of. The orders will then be broken up and shiped directly to each Canadian customer without any brokerage fees. There will be some inventory held in Ottawa that will be used when needed to ensure that our customers get the very best delivery possible. Our goal is to provide the best shipping methods to ensure that you can enjoy your new tools as soon as possible."

Well done, Lie-Nielsen. While I have only checked on that one company, it is good to see that someone is doing a good job at the issue.

On the Canadian side, I have placed numerous orders with Lee Valley and have never had any added handling or customs fees. This is the first time I had known about the issue.

Brian

Brian Kent

06-03-2008, 11:00 PM

Rockler's info:

International Orders

Shipping options for international orders are supplied at checkout, along with estimated costs. Confirmed shipping costs that vary significantly from estimated costs are confirmed with the customer before the order is processed.

Note: The customer assumes responsibility for customs charges and other applicable fees or taxes as required.

michael flay

06-03-2008, 11:37 PM

Michael,
Can you describe what's involved "clear(ing) the customs paperwork" for Canadians?
Does this involve having a shipment from the U.S. halted at the border with Canada and having to personally attend (cross into the U.S.?) at the border, etc.?

Citizen/consumer forums like this are a terrific way to educate ourselves (and perhaps also merchandisers in both countries) on how to avoid rip offs and be more consumer friendly. A business may not be morally responsible for advising a cross border buyer of a stiff fee associated with a particular shipper but that business will lose that customer and likely many others.

Apart from Rockler already mentioned here, there are U.S. outfits like Hartville to cottage manufacturers like Lee Stryon (re Shark Guards for ts) who provide those cautions, recommend using United States Postal Service into Canada. These are the outfits which over time become trusted and recommended by peers.

michael

Okay Guys here's how it works in Canada and surely can't be too different in the US . What I do is once I receive a tracking number from the company shipping the order I phone UPS via 1-800 number and tell them I wish to clear customs myself, They will enter this in there system and once the package arrives in there local depot they will prepare the paperwork and phone you letting you know the paperwork is ready. You then goto to there depot and pick up the paperwork and take it to the local customs office. Once there a customs officer will look at the paper and tell you if there is any duty owing, and you will also pay tax on the value of the goods excluding shipping. You then pay, they will stamp the paperwork and you return to UPS give them the paper, they will give you the package and you are on your merry way! Some notes this won't necessarily apply to all senerios 1) I live in a larger city so we have a customs office within a few blocks of the ups depot. 2) If the product is covered under nafta the shipper should include the necessary documentation with the shipment in order for you to avoid paying any duty. You would then only be responsible for the taxes(in Canada PST+GST). Also something to note that when ups comes to deliver you can tell them you are refusing delivery but not to ship it back as you want to clear the paperwork yourself and they will hold it for seven days before returning it to the shipper.(I learned this when someone screwed up at the call center) This may not cover every scenerio but should cover most. Don't worry, I know this sounds complicated but once you do it the first time it just gets easier. And don't think we are the only ones doing this, people do this all the time for international purchases and lots of small businesses do this to save money.

Cary Swoveland

06-04-2008, 1:16 PM

Of course, Elite Tools should inform US buyers about brokerage fees--that's just good business. There are many possible reasons that information was omitted in this one case, however, so in may be premature to put Elite on the bad company list. I recently bought an Incra Hingecrafter from them, through eBay. I got a great price, it was well packaged, was shipped promptly and NO brokerage fees. (I do live in Vancouver, however.)

Cary

Bob DeWolfe

06-04-2008, 2:26 PM

I could agree with that--I was just thinking that "everyone" in Canada seems to know about it but few in the US did until now.

As stated earlier, we in Canada know only because it is discussed on our Canadian WW Forums frequently. We do not have all the retailers to choose from that are available to you south of the border so we order from your side. In doing so it is common for someone to ask about shipping, brokerage fees, and USPS and couriers.

With Rockler I discuss my order over the phone and insure they ship by post and not by a courier.

Chris Parks

06-04-2008, 9:41 PM

I disagree. If Elite tools knew of the fee (and I have to assume they did), they have a moral obligation to make that fact known to their customers. They cannot "wash their hands" and simply say "That's a carrier cost and not my cost." Mike

So to extrapolate from that statement....Elite Tools should know every import charge and carrier charge for every country in the world? What planet are you on? I too have been hit by UPS charges on imports from the US into Australia. We had a robust conversation about it and they waived the fees. It was an interesting five minutes on the phone as the same parcel coming in via post would incur no fees at all and they knew it. The internet has been a bonanza for all international freight companies.

Art Mulder

06-04-2008, 10:31 PM

I could agree with that--I was just thinking that "everyone" in Canada seems to know about it but few in the US did until now.

Exactly, Matt!

I think I would sum up this thread like this: "A bunch of my American WW'ing friends just discovered something that we Canucks have known about (and griped about) for ages." :rolleyes:;)

With the sheer size of the US versus Canada, the odds are that most Canadians at one time or another have either ordered something from the US, or wanted to order something, or had a friend who ordered something. In contrast, I would wager that the vast majority of US woodworkers have had very little reason to ever mail order something from Canada (or from any other international locale.) As such they just don't know anything about cross border customs, duty, and brokerage fees.

I was first shafted by UPS over 12 years ago on this front. A friend of mine from the States shipped me a present. When shipping across the border you need to fill in a customs declaration, and in his innocence and ignorance he wrote down a grossly exaggerated value of $300. He didn't realize that this value would be used to calculate the brokerage fee that UPS extorted from me before delivering my package.

Many Canadians that I know endeavour to avoid cross-border shipping if possible, due to the annoying brokerage and duty hassles. I sometimes order tools from Amazon and have them shipped to a friend's house in the US, if I happen to be on vacation there or on a business trip. Mostly, I just try to ignore those posts where people share details about those insane sales on tools at Amazon. :mad:

michael flay

06-05-2008, 1:39 AM

Okay Guys here's how it works in Canada and surely can't be too different in the US . What I do is once I receive a tracking number from the company shipping the order I phone UPS via 1-800 number and tell them I wish to clear customs myself, They will enter this in there system and once the package arrives in there local depot they will prepare the paperwork and phone you letting you know the paperwork is ready. You then goto to there depot and pick up the paperwork and take it to the local customs office. Once there a customs officer will look at the paper and tell you if there is any duty owing, and you will also pay tax on the value of the goods excluding shipping. You then pay, they will stamp the paperwork and you return to UPS give them the paper, they will give you the package and you are on your merry way! Some notes this won't necessarily apply to all senerios 1) I live in a larger city so we have a customs office within a few blocks of the ups depot. 2) If the product is covered under nafta the shipper should include the necessary documentation with the shipment in order for you to avoid paying any duty. You would then only be responsible for the taxes(in Canada PST+GST). Also something to note that when ups comes to deliver you can tell them you are refusing delivery but not to ship it back as you want to clear the paperwork yourself and they will hold it for seven days before returning it to the shipper.(I learned this when someone screwed up at the call center) This may not cover every scenerio but should cover most. Don't worry, I know this sounds complicated but once you do it the first time it just gets easier. And don't think we are the only ones doing this, people do this all the time for international purchases and lots of small businesses do this to save money.

REPOST for those who missed it.

Mike Henderson

06-05-2008, 1:55 AM

So to extrapolate from that statement....Elite Tools should know every import charge and carrier charge for every country in the world? What planet are you on? I too have been hit by UPS charges on imports from the US into Australia. We had a robust conversation about it and they waived the fees. It was an interesting five minutes on the phone as the same parcel coming in via post would incur no fees at all and they knew it. The internet has been a bonanza for all international freight companies.
Please note the statement in my post, "If Elite Tools knew of the fee...". They were shipping to a customer in the US, which I expect they do fairly often.

No one said anything about every country in the world and I don't know why you would extrapolate my statement to mean that.

Mike

fRED mCnEILL

06-05-2008, 8:39 PM

"I also think if it were me that my credit union would back me up and reverse the charges. But I also agree that all retailers on both sides of the border should disclose any possibility of additional fees to anyone."

Who are they going to reverse the charges to? It is the shipper who charged the extra charges, not Elite. I think you might get a surprise trying to reverse the charges to UPS/Fedex etc.

I live in Canada and have bought a couple of times from Elite. They were very good to deal with. I also buy from the US and KNOW there will be customs/brokerage charges. I have never requested the postal service and wonder how that works. Do you just say "please ship by USPS"? If they say OK your good to go but if they say "sorry we don't ship by USPS" then you have to decided who else to use.

Thanks

Fred Mc.

Art Mulder

06-05-2008, 10:15 PM

I have never requested the postal service and wonder how that works. Do you just say "please ship by USPS"? If they say OK your good to go but if they say "sorry we don't ship by USPS" then you have to decided who else to use.

Exactly, Fred.

I've seen at least a few websites (of US vendors) where they state that they "only ship using UPS". I didn't even bother asking, they lost my sale already.

I've read several comments over the years from guys who have told how they have to specifically insist that the vendor use USPS instead of UPS/FedEx. Sometimes with now problems, othertimes with big headaches.

...art

Wayne Watling

06-05-2008, 11:32 PM

I'd put this down to a general lack of understanding of just how the import freight system works; and experience. Its certainly unwarrented to single out a single company for your lack of understanding about cross border freight costs when many companies do exactly the same as Elite. It said free shipping and you where not charged for shipping, you were charged for customs clearence. Its quite rare that an exporter will pay all costs including customs clearence, duties, and other applicable government imposed taxes for the buyer. Most of us Canadian woodworkers know this because we are forced to do alot more importing than the ww's in the US, we have found ways to avoid the clearence fees by mostly only dealing with companies that will ship via the postal service.
Its certainly not always a given that the freightforwarder (UPS in this case) will charge a brokerage fee although it happens in most cases where the value of the goods exceed a certain value. As stated previously you could have performed the customs clearence yourself and saved the fees but you might still have been charged duties and taxes by your government and again its up to you to get educated about these things before importing goods from other countries, lesson learned.

Wayne