"stickiness" of finer waterstones.....

[Tim Sproul]

I'm a newbie. I've only been seriously at woodworking for a bit less than a year now.....and I started with scary sharp for sharpening irons and chisels but have found water stones.

got a ? though. I have a 3000x stone from Japan woodworker, the yellow one. The problem or question I have is that when I use this stone for lapping, I get problems with the chisel or iron "sticking" to the stone.....probably something like a vacuum effect. This occurs after only a few strokes....3 or 4 total going back and forth.

So, what do I do? It is a pain because it makes keeping the back flat on the stone difficult.

[Tom Scott]

Tim,
If it's sticking that bad, then it probably means that the back of your iron is already flat. The only good thing about flattening the back of a blade is that you should only have to do it once, unless you sharpen past the flattened area.
If you are just trying to get the back polished for the first time and it's sticking, the only thing I've found that helps is using more water on the stone. Maybe someone else will chime in with another suggestion.

Tom

[Richard Gillespie]

When I used water stones I encountered the same problem. More water does help. I've now gone back to scary sharp system.

Just a thought, though I'm not familiar with the brand stone you are using, in order to get a mirror polish you may need to go as high as a 8,000 grit.

[Gary Bingham]

Maybe you need a nagura stone. According to this (http://japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=2817):


Nagura Stones create this “mud” before honing begins, thus speeding up the polishing process. In addition, the Nagura Stone makes the stone surface slippier, keeping the tool from sticking.

[Tim Sproul]

thanks guys,

I'll try to keep more water on the stone.

I thought Nagura stones were only for finishing stones...6000x and higher.

[Terry Beadle]

The stickyness is good because flat is good... except in a tire..ha. Anyway, the naga stone is suitable from 1500 and up. I use it on my muga stone which is rated around 2500~3000 but as you said mostly on the 6000 and 8000. If you work up a decent 'mud' with the naga it shouldn't stick much. Like the feller said though.. water is a solution.. ( Do you think I should charge for all the puns? ) Sorry.

[Alan Turner]

I use water stones, and flatten them with an abrasive grit, on a granite plate. The adrasive grit leaves small grooves, which breaks the suction of the iron to the stone.
Alan

[Dave Burnard]

I remember having that same yellow 3000 grit waterstone, it was the stickiest stone I have ever encountered. A nagura would help but only in the short term. I ditched it (oops, I mean I gave it to Steve Knight a long time before he became famous).

The Shapton 2000 (green) is a far superior stone - I have the old kind that came mounted on a wooden base. Best man made middle stone I have ever used.

[Tim Sproul]

jeezzzz.......I had thought I was just crazy.

thanks, Dave. I feel much better.... : )

[Don Kugelberg]

Tim,

I use a 800, 1200, (the infamous) 3000 yellow, and a 6000 waterstone to finish up. All were purchased from Japan Woodworker and were in total probably far less cost than a single Shapton green. The finer stones are in fact stickier due to suction. I do not think that more water is the answer because you want to build up a slurry for faster sharpening (the real reason for using a Nagura on the finer stones). To get around the suction, I would recommend that you flatten less of the back with the finer stones as you are only concerned with the last 1/4" or so nearest the edge being completely smooth. By the way, if you follow Dave's suggestion, I would be happy to take the 3000 off your hands, just ping me off line. :D

[Tim Sproul]

Don,

thanks for the offer to unload the stone...but I still use it on bevels. Just don't use it for lapping. Even when only trying to lap a small portion of a chisel or blade, I found it difficult.

[Dave Burnard]

I am glad to hear that the 3000 stone does work, maybe I got one from a bad batch, or we just didn't get along.

I used "old yeller" on japanese plane blades and chisels which have a hollow back and that was OK. But the bevel on a large plane blade can involve quite a bit of real estate. Without using a nagura the bevel would skip, stick, or vibrate it's way across that stone. I even tried grinding away the top 1/16" or so in the hope that it was a surface defect. It didn't help. I could have lived with using a nagura on it all of the time - except that I rarely need to use a nagura on any of my other sharpening stones. I can choose to, but it isn't required.

Nothing wrong with cheap stones - I still use the King S-3? 6000 grit finishing stone from my first sharpening class to finish all my chisels and many of my plane blades. I'm about 1/2 way thru my original Bester 1200 after 13 years, and I just swapped out my Bester 800, it was down to 3/8" or less - will cut whats left into smaller pieces for curved blades. That 800 is overkill for most sharpening, I use it for occasional chips, for reworking second hand blades and eBay finds, and for the occasional blade I make myself.

Enjoy whatever stones work for you!

[Don Kugelberg]

Dave,

I agree, there is no reason to be dogmatic about sharpening, whatever works for you is great. As to the 3000, when I took the "Woodworking with Handtools" class at Cerritos College the water stone assortment I mentioned in my original post was what was required for the class. Literally hundreds of students have been through that class and all used the assortment (including the 3000 without problems. I would bet most are still using them.

Don ;)

[Dave Burnard]

There just aren't many "middle" stones (2000-3000 grit) out there to choose from. Ocean blue natural stone (not available for some time now), Mountain blue natural stone, a manmade blue stone(using crushed natural bluestones), Shapton 2000, Debado brand 2000, and the yellow 3000 whose name I can't remember. The yellow 3000 is a reasonable and cost effective place to start, but there are better stones out there if it isn't to your liking.

And if you go off the deep end (DAMHIKT) you'll start noticing that certain middle and finishing stones work better with some of your tools while other stones work better with other tools. For instance laminated vs non laminated tools (one bevel is mostly iron with a small amount of very hard steel while the other is all pretty hard steel). Careful though, it's a slippery slope... ;)

[Tim Sproul]

Careful though, it's a slippery slope... ;)

:cool:


I'm sliding already....... :eek:



When I get around to spending money again on tools...I am in currently relocating to more expensive digs so tool budget has shrunk to 0$ :( ...but the new home does come with a 2+2 tandem garage/shop with 10' ceiling ;) ...back on topic....

When I get around to spending money again on tools, I'll likely investigate the Shapton professional series stones....they seem to get all the thumbs. I've no illusions that my skills are there to tell the difference in how my tools are sharpened. I can tell a sharp tool from a dull one....that would be the extent of it :D