Save on your electrical bill?

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.power-save1200.com/1200.html

What does the vast SMC collective think about this? I'll share my thoughts later but a buddy of mine bought into it....

[Mike SoRelle]

Big 'ol 'meh' from me, the upside is your buddy now has a whole house line conditioner.

There's no such thing as free energy so you're still paying to keep the caps charged they just don't show that part in their video, maybe in a place with significant swings in energy cost based on time of day, evening out draw might pay off, but I have a hard time buying that that's a big enough capacitor bank to make a difference in the long haul. If the unit was about 100 times larger, I might be more inclined to see benefit, then again, the price point would be....somewhat higher

[Chris Padilla]

Mike,

My sentiments exactly although I haven't dug into the site deeply yet but those are my initial thoughts on it....

[Dennis Peacock]

I've talked and shown this to two EE's here on my floor. They both said the same thing.

Basically? A lot of money for a capacitor and a fuse.
You really need variable capacitance (sp?) to make it work correctly for the varying loads of a common household.

[John Schreiber]

If it sounds too good to be true, . . . I don't even have to finish the line.

How does your friend feel about it? Did he take careful before and after measurements?

[Chris Padilla]

Okay, I did more searching and thinking and it seems that this idea has been used for decades! :D

Power factor correction of inductive loads by using capacitance (passive) simply phase shifts to put the voltage and current in phase to improve power factor; you are charged for current use, not power use.


It works for things like motors (inductive loads) but does not help at all for lights and other items which are either resistive or have power factor correction built into them already--which many electronic items already have.

[Greg Peterson]

Don't know if that unit delivers on its claims.

I installed an Intermatic surge suppressor on my service panel. I'm only interested in taking the transient spikes out of the supply. So far so good, and for $75 it's cheap insurance for the entire house.

[Mike SoRelle]

The thing is, unless you're running a laundromat, how in the heck would you have enough inductive load to make a dent.

[Chris Padilla]

If it sounds too good to be true, . . . I don't even have to finish the line.

How does your friend feel about it? Did he take careful before and after measurements?

My buddy tried to get a hold of me to ask my opinion but apparently I never got the email so he went and bought one anyway. NOW he is asking my opinion and I'm thinking if your house (SHOP) is full of inductive loads like MOTORS, it will help some to improve the power factor.

He just installed it so the jury is out. I think it will help but it is hard to say how long it will take to break even.

[Chris Padilla]

The thing is, unless you're running a laundromat, how in the heck would you have enough inductive load to make a dent.

LOL! Good one, Mike! I do not know, but a woodshop runs plenty of inductive loads...it could help...just don't know how long it will take to get any payback. That will require more thinking and calculations.... :)

[Mike SoRelle]

My buddy tried to get a hold of me to ask my opinion but apparently I never got the email so he went and bought one anyway. NOW he is asking my opinion and I'm thinking if your house (SHOP) is full of inductive loads like MOTORS, it will help some to improve the power factor.

He just installed it so the jury is out. I think it will help but it is hard to say how long it will take to break even.


You also have to wonder if there's not going to be some placebo effect too, maybe now that he's conscious of it, he starts turning off lights, and other energy vampires, etc.

Similar to all the MPG boosting things that were discussed in another thread.

[Randal Stevenson]

Save money on your electric bill


Did he start with the obvious things, like unplugging things when not in use?

Granted (at least with tv's of my generations), you have to reprogram some stuff when plugged in, but it is one heck of a better surge protector, and some things still use a minimun to keep capaciters charged up.

Buy him a wind up alarm clock (remember those?).:)

[Kyle Kraft]

What??? You can still buy a wind-up clock???

[Chris Padilla]

tick tick tick tick tick would drive me insane!! I cannot sleep around such a constant noise....

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have a better way to save on electricity.

Purchase a custom Generically tailored 2*4 from me and wrap your electrical cables around it.
The magnetic field produced will resonate with the DNA in the wood making an astral feed back loop that boosts the electrical power.


If you buy two I'll include a wooden hydrogen maker so you can drive using no gasoline.

Call now.

[Chris Padilla]

Cliff, you'll need to provide a phone number or should I just mash the keypad and you'll pick up? ;)

[Mike Henderson]

Total scam. You don't get charged for out of phase current anyway. The only entity that benefits from power factor correction is the power company.

It might provide some surge suppression but I'll bet that hasn't been a problem for you so far. You'll get better protection if you put surge suppression on the devices you want to protect. But in any case, many electronics devices have some level of surge protection built in.

Mike

[The power factor correction scam has been around so long it has a long grey beard. The scammers take a small motor, like a half horse, and hook up a voltmeter and an ammeter to it. An unloaded motor looks a lot like an inductor to the line so the current is way out of phase with the voltage. They take the voltage and multiply it by the current and tell you that's the watts the motor is taking (it isn't). Then they hook up their device (which is just a capacitor) to the motor, and take a new measurement. Lo and behold, the current is a lot less. They now take the voltage and multiply it by the current and tell you that's how much you'll save (liar, liar, pants on fire). But if you had a power meter connected to the motor, you'd discover that the power is the same in both situations - and the power company charges for power.]

[jeremy levine]

It seemed to me the FAQ on the web site all but said if you have any energy star appliances you won't see much improvement. Which leads to to think you should just replace your old appliances.

[Tom Godley]

I have one, unfortunately it is packed with regenerated dilithium crystals..... so it throws off a lot of photons. The case ended up costing more than the unit!

in 2050 I going to spring for the real deal -- get what you pay for my dad said!

[Randal Stevenson]

I have one, unfortunately it is packed with regenerated dilithium crystals..... so it throws off a lot of photons. The case ended up costing more than the unit!

in 2050 I going to spring for the real deal -- get what you pay for my dad said!


Stick with a TARDIS! The black hole that powers them, gives off more power, and it makes for both a decent sized shop, an easy way to get big tools, and a good way to both find the best deals, and the best tools.:D

[Greg Cole]

.the power company charges for power.]

Thinking thats why ya get a billed for watts.

Chris,
I cant even sleep in a room with the light from a digital alarm clock, never mind something as repetitively noisy as a one second reminder (tick, tick, tick) that I should be sleeping. LOML thinks I'm nuts when I cover the face of the alarm clock and sleep with a fan for ambient noise. Although after nearly a decade together, she can't sleep without the white noise from the fan, and somehow I let her blame me for that.:rolleyes:

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

The power company actually uses a nominal voltage, say 240 V, and then with their inline current meter, charges accordingly, calling it a kilowatt-hour. Techinally, it is the same thing but this is why this shunt capacitor to change the pf can save on current draw. Most modern-day motors use it because of this current-savings and it also allows them to use smaller winding thus saving on copper costs, too. It isn't all quite snake oil but the snake oil salesman carries things too far....

[Mike Henderson]

Thinking thats why ya get a billed for watts.

Greg
I don't mean to be picky but you get charged for watt-hours, usually kilowatt hours, which is 1,000 watts used for an hour. A kilowatt hour is about $0.15 but the rate varies greatly depending on where you live.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

The power company actually uses a nominal voltage, say 240 V, and then with their inline current meter, charges accordingly, calling it a kilowatt-hour. Techinally, it is the same thing but this is why this shunt capacitor to change the pf can save on current draw. Most modern-day motors use it because of this current-savings and it also allows them to use smaller winding thus saving on copper costs, too. It isn't all quite snake oil but the snake oil salesman carries things too far....
A power meter (like the one on your home) measures the actual power passing through it. It does not take a nominal voltage and multiply it by the current flowing through it. The only power that is metered is that which results from the in phase current - the out of phase current does not register as power and passes through the meter without registering (because it does no work). And the power meter does not use a nominal voltage to compute power. If the voltage were to fall but the in phase current stayed the same, the power meter would register lower power usage.

Power factor correction on a motor doesn't buy you a whole lot, but as you point out it does reduce to a small degree the total amount of current flowing through a motor. The reason is that as the motor is loaded to its rated power, the current tends to align more with the voltage (it's less "out of phase") because the motor is producing more power and needs to draw more electrical power. When the motor is lightly loaded, the current is significantly out of phase but the total current is less than full load current. Power factor correction will reduce the lightly loaded current, which reduces the resistance losses a bit, but the amount of loss to resistance is pretty small.

On a household, power factor correction is mostly a scam. The very small savings from reduced resistance losses would take many, many years to compensate for the cost of the device. You would do much better to put the money in a saving account and use the interest to pay for the slightly higher power usage - and you'd probably have money left over.

Mike

[Chris Padilla]

Mike,

I suppose we could argue all day but from what I know and have read, current is king. :) It is the reason why line voltage are so high (10,000 V or 200,000 V or whatever). The current draw defines the actual size of the wires used in all electrical appliances. I really don't think actual "power" is measured...current is and then converted to power through simple math we all know. Over 'n out, good discussion, Folks.

I told my buddy to get his money back but he is going to give it a shot and see if it does anything to his bills. I'll report back. :)

[Mike Henderson]

I really don't think actual "power" is measured...current is and then converted to power through simple math we all know.
A power meter does measures actual, real, used power. It does not take voltage and multiply it by total current (in phase and out of phase). Only the in phase current produces usable power and that's all that registers on a power meter. The out of phase current produces what's called "reactive power" but reactive power does not do any real work and does not register on a power meter.

Such a meter as you describe (one that multipled voltage and total current) would be known as a Volt-Amp meter, which is not the same as a power meter. There are times when you want to know the VA but you don't want to pay for electricity based on that.

Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, you'll need to provide a phone number or should I just mash the keypad and you'll pick up? ;)

Mash the key pad.

[Matt Ocel]

WHOA - WHOA - WHOA -

Hey I just bought 2 and they work better than advertised, I have saved so much money that now I can afford to add another layer of foil to my hat.

[Dennis Peacock]

WHOA - WHOA - WHOA -

Hey I just bought 2 and they work better than advertised, I have saved so much money that now I can afford to add another layer of foil to my hat.

ROFL!!!!!!!!! Hi-O-Tinfoil.....Awaayyyyyyy!!!!!! :)


Sorry....that's just what came to mind all of a sudden. :D

[glenn bradley]

http://www.power-save1200.com/1200.html

What does the vast SMC collective think about this? I'll share my thoughts later but a buddy of mine bought into it....

That would be great if they effected the factor the electric company bills you for ;).