Have you heard the one about ----??

[Dale Thompson]

Hi Folks,
Three or four years ago, on a different board, I posted something which I had read about cutting with a table saw vs. cutting with a radial arm or miter saw. It had to do with the fact that when cutting a material with a good side/bad side, you should run it through the table saw "good side" down. When you are using a radial arm or miter saw, you should cut with the "good side" up. Like on the old Gong Show, I was politely given "The Hook". :( Fine. It certainly wasn't the FIRST time!! :o

Anyway, today, I was working with a piece of pre-manufactured Formica counter top. I had to rip two 14" wide lengths from the 36" wide top using the table saw. I first tried it "good" side down. For insurance against scratching, I put some double-stick tape on the table top and stuck some waxed paper to the tape. I also made a "practice" cut in the "scrap" area (my comfort zone) about 6" long. PERFECT! NO CHIPPING - even under magnification. The two 14" wide pieces came out the same way. NO CHIPPING!

I also had some crosscuts to make. Since my DW Slider would not crosscut 14", I went back to the old radial arm saw, set the fence WAY back and spent a bit of time getting it set up "ACCURATELY". Again, in a "scrap" area, with the "good" side down, I got minor chipping. Perhaps as much as 1/16" on each side of the cut. That's OK for an "end" but not for the seam that my "picky" cousin requires.

I rigged up a way to make the cut with the "good" side up. CLEAN!!

As a double check, I took some "scrap" back to the table saw and ran it "good" side up. I had the same minor chipping problem that I did when it was reversed on the radial arm.

Am I redeemed, insane, lucky, blind or, just maybe, was that article I read something more than a hallucination?? :confused: :) ;)

Whatever, to paraphrase Nathan Hale, "I know not what couse others may take but, as for me," "good" side UP on the miter/radial saw and "good" side DOWN on the table saw. :) :) ;)

Dale T.

[Carl Eyman]

Henry are both revolving in their graves, but what do they know about power tools? Glad you were vindicated. but not by your history teacher.

[David Rose]

Dale, as non-table saw owner I am confused. Why would you not want the good side up on the table saw too? With the blade cutting "down" would it not leave the better cut on the top with any chipping on the bottom?

David, who is probably more confused than you are :(

[John Miliunas]

Aw heck with all the rationale. It's just all that "good, clean living"! :D :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Dale, as non-table saw owner I am confused. Why would you not want the good side up on the table saw too? With the blade cutting "down" would it not leave the better cut on the top with any chipping on the bottom?

David, who is probably more confused than you are :(


David,
Let's try this logic. With the "good" side down on a table saw, that is the first side to see the blade and the "good" side fibers are supported by the material in front of it. If the "good" side were up, there is no support in any direction. On the other hand, with the "good" side up on a radial/miter saw, the "good" fibers are supported by the material below it.

AW HECK! I'll let someone with a degree in nuclear physics figure this out. All I know is: Table down/miter up! It works!! :confused: ;)

Dale T.

[Jim Becker]

Let's try this logic. With the "good" side down on a table saw, that is the first side to see the blade and the "good" side fibers are supported by the material in front of it.
Dale, on my table saw, the blade is decending when it first comes in contact with the material...which is why any tearout is on the bottom and why zero-clearance inserts are so desirable to control the same.

Think about this for a moment. The blade turns toward you. A tooth comes up at the back of the blade and follows and arc to the front. As that same tooth reaches the "top" of the arc, it then begins to move downward towards the table top and then magically disapears inside the saw cabinet. (If you can't see the tooth, does it still really exist?? :D ) As you push the material along the table top into the cut, the workpiece starts to engage the blade as our friend, the saw tooth, is heading down into the deep darkness. At the begining of the cut (unless you really have awesome timing) that tooth first contacts the front edge of the material somewhere on the plane of it's thickness and its neighbor that is continually following it makes contact with uncut fibers a little higher up that same face. In a very short period of time, the subsequent teeth start to arc down on TOP of the workpiece as they slice or chip away wood. In all cases, the teeth leave the workpiece on the bottom, not the top.

I'm not debating the fact that your experiencing some chipout, but there are a number of things that could be causing it exclusive of the above, including type of material, blade design and sharpness, speed of feed, etc. I know that when I start to see a less than desirable cut on the top of material, my blade is over due for a sharpening or is the wrong blade for the job.

[David Rose]

Jeeze! With John M. thinking it's all pure blessing and Dale thinking it's rocket surgery, now I am really confused! :D Aw! Ask Terry H., he thinks that is my normal state. I agree with John that if I ever really understand anything it's by pure grace. LOL

But, Dale, if you are right, then I should be doing panel cuts with my circular saw with wood "good side up", right? It's been long enough since I cut a panel that I am now (again) confused. Shut up Terry. I think I was cutting with the good side down and doing better.

We need a rocket surgeon or brain scientist. Volunteers? I need to make myself an illustration to put on the wall I guess. :rolleyes:

David

[David Rose]

Jim, that's what I was thinking, but not nearly so eloquently or with so many words! :D I like the "our friend the tooth" part. Sounds like my daughter's dentist when she was about 4. And he was talking to ME. :(

David

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I get cleaner reulsts with the good side up on the tablesaw(s) with wood...don't know about sheet products. With a circular saw the cleaner cut is on the bottom.

KC

[Roger Turnbough]

I've also noticed that the amount of sawblade exposed to the cut makes a big difference. ie: A shallowly set blade with just one tooth exposed on the top of the cut will cause more chipout, than using the blade raised up all the way. Its got something to do with the cut being more vertical than horizontal I suppose.

At least thats my story and I''m stickin to it.

Roger

p.s. Another thing we do at work is to score the line using either a razor blade or laminate scorer. Then cut shy of the line, then a belt sander to get to the line.

[Terry Hatfield]

Jeeze! With John M. thinking it's all pure blessing and Dale thinking it's rocket surgery, now I am really confused! :D Aw! Ask Terry H., he thinks that is my normal state. I agree with John that if I ever really understand anything it's by pure grace. LOL

But, Dale, if you are right, then I should be doing panel cuts with my circular saw with wood "good side up", right? It's been long enough since I cut a panel that I am now (again) confused. Shut up Terry. I think I was cutting with the good side down and doing better.

We need a rocket surgeon or brain scientist. Volunteers? I need to make myself an illustration to put on the wall I guess. :rolleyes:

David

David,

:D

t

[Tony Falotico]

Jeeeeze, :D glad none of you guys lay sod for a living! :D :D :D

[John Miliunas]

Jeeeeze, :D glad none of you guys lay sod for a living! :D :D :D

LOL! I did, as a matter of fact, do flooring installation in a past life. There are all kinds of methodologies for the different media used but, for carpet, it was Rule #1: Fuzzy side goes up! :D :cool:

[David Rose]

I think the "fuzzy side up" would work on sod too, right Tony? I mean for planting, not sawing on the table saw. :p I would assume (bad word) that you would cut it with the "fuzzy side down" for either carpet or sod on the table saw. I don't own one, so we can't test on mine. :D I would love pics for any volunteers cutting either, especially the carpet.

David

[Steve Clardy]

I always get cleaner cuts [Table Saw] good side up, both plywood and solid stock. Radial arm, good side up. Mter saw, good side up. I run my blade probably higher than most, [Table saw] as there's less KICKBACK than running a blade just barely through the wood.
I also precut my laminate GOOD Side up on Table Saw, with no chipping.
Steve

[Dale Thompson]

Ding blast it guys. I'm getting really tired of the put downs!! :o :mad: ;)

From lathe experience, we all know that the fibers in front of the cut must be supported. That makes the "good side" up comment easy to explain for the radial arm/miter saw cut. The table saw physics are a bit more complicated.

The first blade tip to hit the material on a table saw is straight into the material. That gives support to the fibers that come next. AW - HECK!!

It works for ME! If you are in doubt, take a "ratty" piece of plywood scrap and try it both ways on both types of saws. If you get results different than mine - either your blade or mine is dull, your fence or mine is out of alignment, you have a "perfect" setup or I am just plain lucky.

The only other possible answer is that, unlike "Spring", you live a clean decent life like I do. :confused: ;) :)

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

Jeeze! With John M. thinking it's all pure blessing and Dale thinking it's rocket surgery, now I am really confused! :D Aw! Ask Terry H., he thinks that is my normal state. I agree with John that if I ever really understand anything it's by pure grace. LOL

But, Dale, if you are right, then I should be doing panel cuts with my circular saw with wood "good side up", right? It's been long enough since I cut a panel that I am now (again) confused. Shut up Terry. I think I was cutting with the good side down and doing better.

We need a rocket surgeon or brain scientist. Volunteers? I need to make myself an illustration to put on the wall I guess. :rolleyes:

David

David,
I'm scared to death of circular saws. I have cut too many cords and had too many kickbacks. So much for being a klutz. On the other hand, if I recall the direction of rotation of one of those "beasts", I would suggest that you are absolutely right in cutting with the "good" side down. It's that lathe lesson with the "support" thing again. ;) :) DAVID - you should KNOW better than to pay any attention to me!! Where is your PRIDE?? ;) ;)

Dale T.

[David Rose]

Dale, I stand corrected before the statement. Huh? But wasn't it "Spring" who said you know nothing about "decent living"? I'm sorry that you are really getting picked on in this thread. You just happen to be really handy.

Could it be time for you and John to clarify things here for all of us? Remember that "confession is good for the soul". Or is it just that "inquiring minds want to know". I'm not sure the last quote is close to scripture, but it sounds pretty good and like lots of fun. :D

David, who is no longer picking on Dale who doesn't know which way is up :D


Ding blast it guys. I'm getting really tired of the put downs!! :o :mad: ;)

From lathe experience, we all know that the fibers in front of the cut must be supported. That makes the "good side" up comment easy to explain for the radial arm/miter saw cut. The table saw physics are a bit more complicated.

The first blade tip to hit the material on a table saw is straight into the material. That gives support to the fibers that come next. AW - HECK!!

It works for ME! If you are in doubt, take a "ratty" piece of plywood scrap and try it both ways on both types of saws. If you get results different than mine - either your blade or mine is dull, your fence or mine is out of alignment, you have a "perfect" setup or I am just plain lucky.

The only other possible answer is that, unlike "Spring", you live a clean decent life like I do. :confused: ;) :)

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

David,
I don't want to pick on Spring when he is not here to defend himself. It's apparent that his daughter has not had the time to check out my theories. We WILL get the facts when she has the time.

When it comes to living "decent lives", I have no argument with Spring. The difference is that he has the $$ to live a "decent" life. I don't!! :( :(

I don't get it David. Spring hides behind his daughter. Tyler hides behind a Viking Ship. Where are YOU hiding?? MY excuse is, "What goes down must come up -- or is it - ?????" :confused: :confused: :o

Dale T.

[David Rose]

Yeah, we shouldn't pick on John when his is far far away.

I hadn't thought about the fact that it takes $$ to live a decent life. Guess John needs to comment on that one too.

Hiding? Let's see. OK, I think I'll just use as my excuse that I am hiding behind the truth. At least it has a noble ring to it whether I am lying or not, huh?

David the defeated by much greater masters (of deceit?)


David,
I don't want to pick on Spring when he is not here to defend himself. It's apparent that his daughter has not had the time to check out my theories. We WILL get the facts when she has the time.

When it comes to living "decent lives", I have no argument with Spring. The difference is that he has the $$ to live a "decent" life. I don't!! :( :(

I don't get it David. Spring hides behind his daughter. Tyler hides behind a Viking Ship. Where are YOU hiding?? MY excuse is, "What goes down must come up -- or is it - ?????" :confused: :confused: :o

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

No, I'm here. I'm still trying to figure out how I botched the other reply on the "HD/Bessey" thread. :confused:

Nah, no need to "hide behind my daughter". Besides, I'm a lot bigger than her, so you'd still see me. Anyhow, about "...all that $$". Well, I shore do wish I had the $$ you keeping referring to! These house projects are getting about as deep as the....well, you know! :rolleyes: Heck, I could sure use some of that loose change laying around in Peshtigo! :)

As for the origin of this thread, I don't have a RAS, but for the TS, it's good side up. For CMS, it's good side up. Forrest blades on both and most minimal tearout, even on the exit side of the blade. Dale, me thinks you need to stop shopping at K-Mart for your saw blades! :D

Oh, and Dave, if you're looking for the "truth", you ain't gonna' get it from either of these two Cheeseheads! :D :p :cool:

[David Rose]

Hi John. We didn't notice that you were still in the room. :p You are sure making messes of a lot of threads aren't you? ;) Hey Dude! We still love you. It is just much easier to pick on someone who isn't in the "responding position". I keep thinking Dale will wear out, but that dude has real endurance! Well, truth is maybe I don't have what I use to at your (young squirt) age.

You want change? Hey, Dale! How 'bout you send him your loose change?

Did you know that "good side up" is good for the real saw too? That is the "non-French" bandsaw. Dale is slipping over the edge, me thinks. So sorry that he is still using those "low" speed steel blades. Where better than KMart to find them though?

Did I ask you for the truth? Did I ask Dale for the truth? If I want the truth, I'll give it to you. ...if I can find it... If I can't, I'll make it up like most politicians. Sorry that you misunderstood. I only said that I was "hiding behind the truth as I perceived it". As you can see, that don't mean nothin'. :D

David


No, I'm here. I'm still trying to figure out how I botched the other reply on the "HD/Bessey" thread. :confused:

Nah, no need to "hide behind my daughter". Besides, I'm a lot bigger than her, so you'd still see me. Anyhow, about "...all that $$". Well, I shore do wish I had the $$ you keeping referring to! These house projects are getting about as deep as the....well, you know! :rolleyes: Heck, I could sure use some of that loose change laying around in Peshtigo! :)

As for the origin of this thread, I don't have a RAS, but for the TS, it's good side up. For CMS, it's good side up. Forrest blades on both and most minimal tearout, even on the exit side of the blade. Dale, me thinks you need to stop shopping at K-Mart for your saw blades! :D

Oh, and Dave, if you're looking for the "truth", you ain't gonna' get it from either of these two Cheeseheads! :D :p :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

I don't know who started this DUMB thread but whoever it was should be hung from the end of a RAS. David hides behind, "the truth". However, he has not answered the question, "What IS truth??". Spring is so busy counting his money that he is already buried before he even gets a chance to defend his feeble positions. Explain why I got NO chipping with the TS when I cut the Formica counter top "good" side DOWN and minor chipping when I tried to cut some "scrap with the good side UP. :p

I've got an idea!! :eek: :eek: Let's ask someone who has actually USED one of these types of saws to comment. ;) :D Am I brilliant - or what?? Back off on the kudos, folks. I'm a very modest, unassuming guy who just happens to be BRILLIANT!!. ;) ;) WHEW! It's lonely at the bottom! :)

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

Dale, me thinks you need to stop shopping at K-Mart for your saw blades!

Spring,
SAW BLADES?? So that's the trick!! When I paid all that $$ for the equipment I didn't realize that I had to get all of those fancy "accessories" like saw blades. DANG! Another trip to the local landfill!? :) :eek:

Dale T.

[David Rose]

I would ask how to define "IS" but that one has already been used. :p

I finally figured out how Dale is getting great cuts on the formica with the good side down. What I don't understand is how he is holding it down on the table with the blade and motor reversed. :rolleyes:

David


I don't know who started this DUMB thread but whoever it was should be hung from the end of a RAS. David hides behind, "the truth". However, he has not answered the question, "What IS truth??". Spring is so busy counting his money that he is already buried before he even gets a chance to defend his feeble positions. Explain why I got NO chipping with the TS when I cut the Formica counter top "good" side DOWN and minor chipping when I tried to cut some "scrap with the good side UP. :p

I've got an idea!! :eek: :eek: Let's ask someone who has actually USED one of these types of saws to comment. ;) :D Am I brilliant - or what?? Back off on the kudos, folks. I'm a very modest, unassuming guy who just happens to be BRILLIANT!!. ;) ;) WHEW! It's lonely at the bottom! :)

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

I've got the perfect answer to this whole scenario for ALL saws. Unfortunately, I've got a rope around my neck and I'm being pushed off of the end of my RAS table. OH! Gurgle, gurgle, SNAP!! :( :( :eek:

Dale T. -- R.I.P (Am I a great poet - or what?) :cool: ;)

[David Rose]

Awww! Peace at last. :) I mean... WHAT? We lost Dale??? Oh, no! Who hung him from his radial arm sander? :eek:

David, who ain't a poet and he do know it


I've got the perfect answer to this whole scenario for ALL saws. Unfortunately, I've got a rope around my neck and I'm being pushed off of the end of my RAS table. OH! Gurgle, gurgle, SNAP!! :( :( :eek:

Dale T. -- R.I.P (Am I a great poet - or what?) :cool: ;)

[John Miliunas]

Awww! Peace at last. :) I mean... WHAT? We lost Dale??? Oh, no! Who hung him from his radial arm sander? :eek:

David, who ain't a poet and he do know it

Hey, I'm in Wisconsin but, I'm not THAT close to Peshtigo! :eek: Well, David, at least, be consoled in the fact that hanging is a relatively quick way to go. ;) Let's all take a moment and bow our heads in his memory.....OK. Enough. What were we doing? Oh yeah. I was going to drop Mrs. Thompson a line and see if she needed any help in disposing of his bod....errrrrr.....tools. Yeah, that's it. Tools. :p I'll be sure to put a post out in our "Classifieds" section of any tools which I don't tak...errrrrrr.....sell for her locally. His quick whit and humor will truly be missed! (Ah, *who* were we talking about again?! :confused: ) :cool:

[Steve Clardy]

Quit yer fussing and get to work. Ya got WOODWORKING ta do!! Haha.
David, man, I didn't think my ol arkie buddies had it in them to fuss this much. Guess you'll havta settle down now that Dale has left the building.:eek::eek:

BTW David, hows that pc router doing?
John, Dales widow has TOOLS fer SALE? Hey cool. :cool::cool: Let me know if you need help sorting them out.;);)

Steve [ducking just in case]

[David Rose]

John, if there is an MM24 in that pile of goodies, I claim it! I mean I'll pay a little to the bereaved Mrs. Was she the one who pushed him? It couldn't have been us. Now all this is in total reverence to Dale's memory. ;) Btw, how does a Radial Arm Sander work? :confused:

Steve, I like the PC trimmer. It is a bit of a transition since my other routers are plungers. But for handheld use I don't find the twisty base adjustment to be a problem. I did immediately replace the base with a tear drop one for more control. The solid (metal) assembly also kind of inspires confidence whether earned or not. I use the little bugger for a lot of things that I would have grabbed the full size router for in the past. Did I say I like the one handed operation? You know, when I think about it, I really use it more two handed, but it is so small and light and such that it still feels like "one handed use".

David

[Dale Thompson]

Thank you for all of the kind expressions of concern over my demise. Unfortunately, like the ancient Pharoahs of Egypt, I have been buried with ALL of my tools. :D :D :D

Considering my generous nature, however, I DID bequeath my two-pound coffee can full of old pipe fittings, miscellaneous screws and bolts, broken plastic parts and other worthless paraphenalia to you guys. You will be hearing from my lawyer shortly and you will all be invited to fly into Peshtigo International Airport to greedily argue over your inheritance. Be kind to one another. :p :p :)

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

Aw heck, I'm easy. I'll just take the empty can! :D And what makes you think I can afford to "fly in"?! :( Just be sure the attorney gives us plenty of time to get there. Like I said, I'm in Wisconsin, but that's going to take a long time to hitch-hike up there! :rolleyes: :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Aw heck, I'm easy. I'll just take the empty can! :D And what makes you think I can afford to "fly in"?! :( Just be sure the attorney gives us plenty of time to get there. Like I said, I'm in Wisconsin, but that's going to take a long time to hitch-hike up there! :rolleyes: :cool:
Yup!! Who in their right mind would pick YOU up??

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

Like I said, I'd need a LOT of lead time! :rolleyes: :cool:

[David Rose]

Dale, I expect John expects me to pick him up. But I am still in shock at your physical ressurection. :eek: I probably won't recognise him as I drive by. I'll try to remember to wave though. If I am the only one there do I get the can?

David, the generous

[Dale Thompson]

David,
Yes!! You would get the prize. Don't worry about Spring. If you don't recognize him I'm sure that the cops WILL! They will probably get a promotion if they get him in the back seat of their squad car.

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

David,
Yes!! You would get the prize. Don't worry about Spring. If you don't recognize him I'm sure that the cops WILL! They will probably get a promotion if they get him in the back seat of their squad car.

Dale T.

Ahhh, fo-get 'bout it! If I have to risk getting picked up by the cops and can't even count on a prize, it ain't hardly worth it! Too bad...I was really looking forward to that can! :mad: Well, maybe in his next lifetime! :D :cool:

[David Rose]

You guys are nuts! Can't believe I actually got involved in this. :eek:

Innocent Dave

[John Miliunas]

You guys are nuts! Can't believe I actually got involved in this. :eek:

Innocent Dave

Hey, hey, hey...Now wait just one minute! What do you mean using "you guys" as a plural?! :confused: There's absolutely nothing wrong with Dale! LOML is always telling me how I'm a few fries short of a "Happy Meal", so she must know. Right? I think? Anyhow, quit pickin' on Dale! Sheeeesh...It's bad enough he has to wear that dumb white jacket with all the straps on it. Give the guy a break! :D :D :cool:

[Steve Clardy]

Here we are already fussing over Dales estate!!!!!!!.:eek: We ain't even got there yet to split it up!!!!!!!:confused::confused::confused::confused:
John, You KNOW I need that coffee can worse than you. Beings coffee is being packed in plactic buckets more and more and less in metal, I can see a problem coming up for me. I use coffee cans for mixing stain, holding used lacquer thinner, etc.
Dale. Give me directions quick so I can beat John up there!!!! Maybe I'll pass him by while He's stopped at the roadside eyeballing some future project in the trees by the road.:D:D
Steve

[David Rose]

John, you do realize that McDonald's answer to the "weight gain lawsuits" is to cut portions? I haven't eaten there for some time, so I don't know for sure but I doubt a Happy Meal had too many fries in the beginning. Take away the "fat producing ones" and the ones "you are short" and... what's left? :eek:

Your wife is your best judge and we'll back her up all the way. :D

Hey! You leave Dale's clothes alone! That's his best part. :rolleyes:

David


Hey, hey, hey...Now wait just one minute! What do you mean using "you guys" as a plural?! :confused: There's absolutely nothing wrong with Dale! LOML is always telling me how I'm a few fries short of a "Happy Meal", so she must know. Right? I think? Anyhow, quit pickin' on Dale! Sheeeesh...It's bad enough he has to wear that dumb white jacket with all the straps on it. Give the guy a break! :D :D :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Dale. Give me directions quick so I can beat John up there!!!! Maybe I'll pass him by while He's stopped at the roadside eyeballing some future project in the trees by the road.:D:D
Steve[/QUOTE]


Steve,
Don't worry about Spring. He is still working on his kitchen". :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

When you hit Chicago (that's a small town at the southern tip on Lake Michigan), take a north turn. Keep driving north until you see a sign that says, "End of the Earth - 2 miles". Keep driving for another 2 1/4 miles -- you can't miss my place. It's the first turn DOWN! :eek: :)

Dale T.

[David Rose]

Steve, I thought you were too smart to get involved with the rabble in this thread. :D Be careful, there are some reall kooks on the Crick. :p And to protect the innocent, I won't name anyone but John and Dale. And I won't say which they are. :D But *you* know!

David