Hey Matt Hutchinson ~ your headstock solution- possibly.

[Brian Weick]

Matt,
based on your information Matt, this inner coupled bearing assembly can be done . That bearing housing that you diagrammed, can be bored out on a horizontal milling machine , or a computerized CNC milling machine ~ that was the machine that did mine. I do believe there is enough material in the bearing housing to do the transformation, Based on what you're diagram reads ,:
The Diameter of the shaft is 2.125" and the diameter of the Babbitt housing shell is 2.75" which leaves you at 0.625" fractionally 5/8ths of an inch give or take. If you have the shaft milled down 3/16" or 0.1875 mm , the ID of the bearing will fit very well on to the shaft ~ providing it is accomplished by a professional machinist down to the 1,000ths of an inch for a very snug fit. The Babbitt housing can be used to insert and compress the 2 sealed ball bearings-they will bore out the ears just slightly (1,000ths of an inch again) so that when you bolt down the ears you have a very rock solid bearing compression assembly ~ I can attest to that. You may have to use brass trimmer shims to adjust the lock on the bearings. I have EPDM spacers which really does a great job of allowing for a good lock down on the outer shell of the top ear to the bottom, locking the bearings down.
Anyhow,
Then you will need 2 ,16-19,000lb static load thrust bearings, with a mating shell sleeve washer on both ends (50mm again) 2 locking hubs (50mm),set screw locking mechanics,Rubber seal rings (2) 2 (50mm x 0.50 ~(1/2") spacer hubs. The rough costs of the bearings ,bushings and hubs will probably cost around $250 ~ $300.00 somewhere around that ball park ~ then there is the machining ~ this may get expensive or it may not, I don't know how well you know this firm you are talking about . You see, I received a quote from the machinist that did my lathe (I once considered the pillow block replacement) ,, sad , isn't it~ :D) anyways, He quoted me , with the pillow blocks around $350.00 ~ he said all they were doing is centering the headstock,milling the ears of to a certain hight , to allow for the center point to be able for adjustment, laterally and longitudinally~ the pitch and ya scenario. ,and the mounting bolt milled out to accept the pillow block base template,temporally bolt them on and that's it , this would have worked very well, There is a lathe on OWWM http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=1379, Now this guy on OWWM got away with it and it actually works very,very, well. but what it was going to do to the character of my lathe was not what I was aiming for.You have to decide which way to go , if you could put the pillows on , maybe it won't look out of character with the lathe, possibly ? well, I hope all is going to work out for you and your lathe.
Brian:)

[Matt Hutchinson]

Sounds like a possible solution. The reason I was leaning toward the pillow block idea was due mainly to the lack of solutions fleshed out when I met with the machinists. They were recommended for their skill, but I don't know if they had enough knowledge of the available products. The owner/operator is an older fellow, and he was basing his solutions on a single bearing catalog that he had. I believe he has the skills to do whatever I would like, but I don't think he has a grasp of a turner's needs. Also, he didn't seem to have a lot of info on thrusts bearings, which really altered our/my methods of problem solving. Even after explaining everything repeatedly, I think he couldn't get past the economics. I am guessing he didn't realize that $1000 was a reasonable solution. And he didn't think there was enough material in the ears of the headstock, but I will have to look around to see about what you are saying. It would help greatly if you had pics of your bearings opened up. In any case, I have some pondering and investigating to do. Thanks again for you help. I will continue to keep you aprised of any developments. And I imagine I will need more of your help. :)

Hutch

[Brian Weick]

I will have the pictures later today for you. I have to back off the locking hub and then unbolt the ears. Will be later today.
Brian.

[Matt Hutchinson]

Can't wait! BTW, I wouldn't be using the existing shaft. I would need to get a new one made because the current inboard taper is not centered, nor is it a MT. It's some unknown taper, another serious problem with my current setup. A can't do spindle work very well. Now, I did buy a Rikon mini for the small stuff, but I would love to use the Big Mamma for most everything.

Hutch

[Brian Weick]

As far as your tapper ~ what is the opening diameter at the mouth? there may be a simple solution for that as well~ possibly? Here are the photo's of the bearing housing with the cap off and a breakdown of the bearing assembly ~ Pretty straight forward and it isn't complicated ~ just make sure you aquire some quality bearings/hubs ~ I can refer to the parts from my file on the Oliver if you need the #s , as I belive they will be 50mm. Hope this helps you Matt.
Brian

[Matt Hutchinson]

Yup, I like it. That's really the type of modification that I am looking for. And you guessed it, I would love to get the part numbers and/or manufacturers from you. Oh, and I was also curious as to whether you have more than one thrust bearing. As part of the conversion, I would like to make it so that I can turn outboard as well. And this brings me to another question. With a shaft with such a large diameter, what type of pulley system do you use?

Again, thank you for taking the time to clarify things. I actually feel like I may have a chance at making this modification go smoothly.

Hutch

[Matt Hutchinson]

For those of you who keep peeking at what's happening in this thread, I have a series of pictures posted in my user CP photo album that show the headstock of my lathe. I have described my lathe at different times, but to make a long story short, it's from the 1880s, and it can swing 23.5" and turn 7 feet between centers. But it is missing all the conveniences that come standard with modern lathes, and I am trying to include these as I attempt to reengineer/improve my lathe.

Hutch

[Brian Weick]

What you see from the bearing housing picture is duplicated at the outboard side as well. There is no, and I mean absolutely no play , no slop , no movement laterally or vertically with this set up - it is incredibly rock solid and stable and I was elated with this bearing conversion~ smooth and quite.
I believe the Oliver pattern lathes from the 30's and upward had tapered bearings in some of their large pattern lathes which I wish I could have done but the ear housing would not allow for that and my shaft was not designed for that as well. Those are expensive ,around $2200.00 I believe, but I spent a lot of time researching this and received some help from Allen and Craig from Buffalo Bearing, after all I am not a machinist but I do admire and enjoy machining and all of what you can do .
Matt, do you have the information on the mouth opening of your spindle?
The Part #s:starting from the bearings all the way back to the collar locking hub:
Sealed radial ball bearing 60102RS, 50mm ID x 80mm Od ~ Static load capacity 3,750,individually (4 combined~15,000lbs) dynamic load capacity 4,900 individually (4 combined 19,600 lbs), Max rpm range on all 4> 2600-nominally at 3300 rps ,Price $48.00 each from Grainger.
Brass/Bronze plate washer 1/4" diameter x 2.00 ID x 3.00 OD ~ use the existing plate washer off of your lathes headstock spindle. If need be I have them if you need them~ $10.00 for both
Thrust bearing IDC-51110, 50mm ID x 70mm OD ~ Static load capacity~15,500lb x 2 ~31,000lbs, dynamic load capacity 6,070lbs x 2 13,040lbs , maximum RPM capacity 3,300. Price $35.87ea ( be carefully that you install these correctly- one of the matting plates are just slightly larger than the shaft diameter and fits snuggly on to the shaft- this one goes up against the 1/2" diameter steel bushing and the other side which is about 55mm goes up against the brass plate washer~ very important!) use a high speed high temp grease when you pack the thrust washer and a few drops of oil then move the rubber seal sleeve in as far as you can to cover the bearing.
Rubber V-ring seal TCM-VS 080~ price $4.37
Steel bushing 1/2" x 50mm ID x 80 mm OD ~ around $7.00~ I used ones I had at my shop.
Shaft collar lock hub 3R-m 50mm ID X 80mm OD ~ $6.34ea

total price for the parts listed ~ 319.16 -however it will be considerably less if you contact Craig Sr. or Craig Jr from Buffalo Bearing , and do not forget to mention that I referred you to him!
The Pulley setup, depending on the motor shaft will run you $240.00~ around there:

2B68SDS Sheave ~ price $66.53
2b70SK Sheave~price $68.43
SK bushing ~ price $29.88
B77 V belt ~ price $18.97 x2
FYI: Now this was my step pulley parts~ yours may be different ,length of the belts, the shaft diameter on the motor , and I have a drive all transmission in the belly of the oliver ~ so we are not talking apples to apples Matt.

IF you want an index plate made /w stamped degrees the same as the one I have for the oliver $250.00 , you may be able to get this done less/more depending on who you know.


As I said before Matt ~ for the parts~ if you contact Craig SR. from Buffalo Bearing 716-874-1720 and mention my name you will get 10% off of all the parts and no tax,(as long as it is outside of NY) all you have to pay for is shipping- that's up to you.

[Matt Hutchinson]

The taper opening in the shaft is about 3/4", and I couldn't even get the small end of a MT# 3 into it. Also, it appears that a previous tool/drive spun in place, damaging the surface. A MT#3 reamer might do the trick, bit I don't know much about machining. Thanks for the parts list, these sound very affordable. It's the machining that I may have to save up for.

Hutch

P.S. How wide are the bearings when they are coupled together? Thanks.

[Brian Weick]

3/4" is the mouth opening ~ you have got to be kidding me :eek:, are you sure:confused:? if that's correct, you can have that machined to a #4 Morse tapper- with no problem :D~ I wouldn't bother with #3 , if your shaft size OD on the inboard side is 1-7/8 a #4 Morse tapper at the mouth will be 1-1/4". that can be done I believe.
The bearing width is 5/8" thick x 2 will be 1-1/4" paired up, I know what you were thinking, it's all good Matt! by the way , If you decide to get these parts from Buffalo Bearing, around $225.00 , somewhere around there. Grainger/MLS most of the wholesalers i found can't compete with Buffalo bearing as of yet,and frankly, Craig has been very good to me and is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to parts and information, so I don't go anywhere else when it comes to these parts and he gets all of my business. I guess I feel some loyalty to him.
For example the 4 main bearings for the lathe were priced out at $48.00 from Granger, Craig can get them for you for $31.00 ~ all this adds up after you get a running total. That's $17.00 x4 That's $68.00 on those alone. same bearing~ exactly! that money is better off in your pocket ~ as long as you are getting quality parts~ which they are,verified! they are making money / you get the right parts and everyones happy all the way around! :)
well,'
I hope all works out for you ~ Allen is getting a quote for me on your lathe for a milling fee , don't be alarmed ~just so you know what your in for and your going into the machine shop educated and with some knowledge on what milling machine they should use, and the price.some of them are shysters ~ be careful. Certain outfits get one whiff that your head is up you're proverbial area :eek:, you will end up spending way more than the work is worth. I was quoted as high as $3900.00 and as low as $300.00, now that guy that quoted me $300.00 worked out of his home , but I took one look at what he was going to use to mill it ~ a south bend short bed ,and he had to figure out how he was going to hold it down on the bed, it was just the wrong equipment for the project ~ that did it for me, he kept saying "I'll try and get it aligned properly"~ yea, that's great ~ "you know , what happens if things go drastically wrong , now he said he wouldn't charge me if it didn't work, nice gesture and a great price, but he really wasn't to confident, only because of his equipment.He was a nice guy, and a true machinist ,really, and I gave him some small work that I needed done and he did a great job! but if things went wrong on this headstock, I am going to need more than luck in finding an oliver headstock from 1900's ,a new one from Oliver $6,500 (which looks like it's from 2000 era) and i am probably low on that price. Allen did all the milling and engineering, along with a lot of extras , my bill was actually over $1200.00 but this included all the parts , and extra accessories I had made by him ~ all i can say is ~ Sweet! and well worth the money.
the milling costs will not be as bad as mine, no where near it actually, unless you start getting into additional work. I think around $400- $500 ~ all they have to do is mill the shaft to 50mm and the OD on the bearing housing ears (inboard/Outboard) will be 1.989 to match the OD of the bearings and that's it~ simple. The only other thing they will have to do is bore out the tapper to a #4.
I really wouldn't waist my time with #3's ( in my opinion) the #4's are better equipped considering the type of lathe you have. As far as the #4 Morse tapper fittings, i have a source that I can get almost what ever you want, some new, some used~ well
good luck and just shout if you need some additional help,:)
Brian

[Matt Hutchinson]

Actually, inboard diameter is only 1.5". The previous owner had this milled and threaded to 1.5" 8 tpi so that he could buy standard accessories to put on it. And I think it was a smart decision. I like being able to use standard accessories.

As far as your source, I would be very interested in finding old large faceplates. Well, not necessarily larger than 12" in diameter, but with a larger threaded hole. This would be for large outboard turning, which brings me to the last significant issue. I would like to be able to turn outboard, but there is not enough shaft...I don't think. The thrust bearing is a HUGE threaded bolt, and though the shaft is over 2", the thrust bolt enters an even larger unthreaded hole in the end of the shaft. I want to machine the end so that it fits existing old faceplates, but I don't know what sizes are available, and I wouldn't be able to take the outboard shaft down to 1.5" to fit modern woodturning faceplates.

Other than that, I am totally thrilled with the possibility of upgrading the machine. I still have some financial hurdles to overcome in order for this to become a reality, specially since I would not be able to use the current drive system. I would at least have to invest in a new set of pulleys, but most likely I would need a new motor, vector drive, and corded remote control box. If I have to do all of this at once, I don't know how I could afford it. I just don't have that kind of money, especially right now. I mean, I could buy the parts, but I wouldn't have anything left for the machining.

ARGH! Being poor and barely employed is tough when everything costs money! I mean, the whole point of this is so I can build a business around my woodturning, but right now there is no money to get things off the ground. I only have my big lathe, a mini lathe, an old 14" bandsaw, a grinder, a chainsaw, and a few quality hand tools. All of this is located in an unfinished, poorly lit, un-insulated garage.

But in truth, I tend to be an optimist. As difficult as it is to look at where I am, and then think about where I want to be, I still have confidence. Sure, I get discouraged, but in the grand scheme of things I think I might find a way to make it work.

In all of this, the true blessing is my wife. She has been extremely supportive, understanding the dream that I have. Almost every penny we earn goes to buying something for getting the business off the ground, and if it weren't for her encouragement I wouldn't have gotten this far. I feel like I am the luckiest guy in the world.

Hutch

[Brian Weick]

I didn't realize your shaft diameter was 1.5" ~ I would have to agree with you on that note that a #4 Morse tapper would be "cutting it close" . Well,
as far as the outboard turning? are you sure you want to machine the outboard to 1.5? usually , this area for turning is for larger pieces that can not be placed inboard~ you could go to the floor if you so desired as long as you keep the threading original. The modern face plates and fittings are geared for considerably smaller lathes~ you don't have a conventional lathe~ I would have to say a hard to find piece of equipment for someone that wants to do larger work, which can not be accomplished with todays lathes that are on the market. I have yet to see a 7' diameter piece of work on the outboard side with these types of lathes and further more would be something I would dread to see~ an accident waiting to happen in my eyes and totally unsafe. You have a unique lathe and the capacities the you posses on that lathe are not able to be accomplished by most of todays lathes. I don't know what you plan on doing as far as "turning project size" but in my personal opinion I would keep it as original as much as possible,with out downgrading it, otherwise you may just as well forget restoring and upgrading that beautiful lathe and go out and by a PM/oneway because by making things smaller ,in my opinion, you are defeating the purpose of that size lathe. You will be able to do work as small as pen projects on her and as large as your pit is on the outboard side (with in reason and common sense of course) If you ever sell the lathe it would be a drawback for someone that wants to turn large outboard projects ~ I would try to keep it as original as possible~ just my 2 cents. All you need are the hubs ~ you can make your own backer plates to mount on to the hubs. I don't know if this is how you're outboard accessories are set up , as far as a hub, but I don't think that would be a problem.
the motor, ~ have you considered the Variable frequency drive in conjunction with a 3ph induction motor. the vector drives are nice but they are going to get you on the accessories that you will actually need to get it to run ~ just a thought. As far as the motor, you could place the motor in the belly of the bed ways on a fabricated swing plate using smaller pillow block bearings to mount on the inside of the bed way drive area, create the slot in the headstock and install the pulley system~ you're all set and good to go, 0 ~ 3000rpms depending on what ratio (stepped) you decide to go with.
Matt,
If you need to , do it in steps ~ I totally understand ~ it can get expensive but then again, maybe it won't be so bad. I have already sank close to $4000.00 into my Oliver in total, and that is not counting all of my time/work involved in restoring her~ the right way with all the documentation and pictures to go along with it. But it was well worth every dollar and all of my efforts. Be glad you have a great wife to support you and I think that is great, my girl friend is like that as well~ great lady! consider your self blessed! my hat goes off to her.
If I were you, and I'm not,this is what I did, the first thing I did was lay out the project plan on paper,disk or portable storage device (USB) then I had to figure out all of the bearing options, pulley set up , and fabrication of the drive system, then there was the electronics , what size motor, 220 single phase or 3ph, I used to get so hazy at the end of the day while doing this. But what helped me was the plans and drawings. I have saved you the burden of having to go through all of this with some aspects of the retrofitting and updating, you have no idea~trust me. But most of all find a competent machinist that is interested in helping you and explain to him/her what you want - with the part#s , once you feel comfortable with that ~ get your inventory in stages and when you have everything ~ send the headstock and tail stock out to have it completed, in the mean time while that is being completed (took my machining 3 weeks by the way~ Allen did this project in between his regular work , major projects i might add, to save me some$) anyways, while that is going on you could start stripping the lathe down if you want to do a thorough job, every single part ~ well ~ you know the scoop ,ie my restoration thread. so when you complete that everything is ready to go back together. Don't get down about it,~ you can only do so much at one time and money is a concern~ I totally understand~ one step at a time ~ I would just like to see that great lathe you have modernized and restored better than when it came of the show room floor. Just a beautiful piece of equipment to have as part of your equipment and a joy to work on. Keep me posted Matt ~ you and yours have a great weekend! :)
Sincerely,
Brian

[Matt Hutchinson]

Yep, I think that I will just collect parts for the time being. That way I have the machining done it will all come together fully upgraded. I can do plenty on it as is, and I am used to waiting for things. As always, thank you, and I will update you as things progress. Also, as far as the outbards end, I do want to keep it as big as possible. I just didn't know if there was a faceplate available in such an oddball size. I think its something like 2.125" 7 TPI.

Hutch

P.S. Oh, almost forgot. What do you use to control the VFD drive?

[Brian Weick]

When you go shopping for the VFD dbl the HP rating of the VFD. The reason is you can have 220 single phase in or 3 phase in. If it is 3 phase in you have all three "legs" of voltage going in to power the VFD, with single phase in , you only have 2 legs of power going in ~ now the VFD recognizes that and creates the 3rd leg on the output side of the VFD but not with the same safety parameters. You have a very good chance of frying the VFD if you just match the hp rating.
220v single phase in and 3 phase out , DO NOT GROUND THE VFD TO THE MOTOR! The VFD is the controller itself Matt, just think of it as a very elaborate variable speed controller, you can program this thing to the hill, it's insane, use you computer to control it , a master bus system, it's sick what all the options are, including keeping the torque ratio through out whatever frequency (speed) you are dialed into)
Here is some information that I think will help you immensely, just , when you get the manual ~ you really have to read all of the peripheral sections and parameter adjustments to really understand what that thing can do, and it is amazing! VFD YASKAWAJ7SERIES (http://www.e-mechatronics.com/en/product/inverter/j7/)

Hope this helps you out, nice motor by the way!
Brian