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David Brasfield
05-28-2008, 12:52 PM
Hi, Folks.

I have been lurking for a few weeks now. There seem to be a lot of knowledgeable people here.

My wife and I sold our technology-based business of 18 years back in the summer of 2006. In 2003, I built a nice wood shop for us to do piecemeal projects, cabinetry, whatever came up. It was to be a nice change from owning a high-stress business that had to be operational 24/7 (that part of our business was 12 years of hell, no matter how many employees we threw at it).

Once the business was sold, we took off a year (plus) and didn't do much of anything. We have eased into the woodworking and done surprisingly well. At one point before we sold the technology business, I swore that we would never take the woodworking business, high-tech. That has been a tough boot to eat...

Anyway, on to the problems.

1) The exhaust blower that was provided by the rep with our laser is noisy (112db - worse than a router), and totally inadequate for the job. It is one of those "red machines" from Harbor Freight. I am sure that the Rep wasn't trying to get anything by me, he worked hard for the sale. I just don't think he realizes that particular blower won't do the job for a machine that size and power. I should have had issues with him reducing both 6 inch ports down to 4 inch to start with. The machine makes a lot of smoke. I have ordered a 2hp 1500 cfm blower with proper sized ducting. The "red machine" claims 914 cfm. I think "claim" is the operative word here, and it makes no mention of the static pressure in the specs. Regardless, it doesn't move enough air, and you will go deaf without ear protection. Has anyone else had issues with airflow on the larger format machines?

My shop wide vacuum system is a 3hp system from Oneida, and it is only slightly louder than the air-conditioning system.

2) Holding material flat. We use a good deal of baltic birch in varying thicknesses. Since our system has the air assist cone (long), and we do a lot of cutting, I am concerned with keeping stiff material as flat as possible. (It would also be nice to have enough airflow to remove the smoke out of the vector grid). The "Vacuum hold down" doesn't hold anything, and probably won't, even if the ports under the table lined up with the ports in the back side of the enclosure (below the flutes). (Note to Epilog. Providing different port configurations for machines with different focal points would be a great idea, or even better, offer re-positional ports, that might make vacuum hold down more effective.)

So, has anyone come up with a good method for keeping materials flat on the table? I have a half dozen ideas in my head, none of which I want to implement if someone already has a decent fix they wouldn't mind sharing.

3)<rant> Is there a mind meld feature in CorelDRAW? I have used a lot of different CAD packages, and X3 is good for text and bitmaps, but is completely non-intuitive for dealing with (what are to me) basic functions such as precision size, placement, and combining/cutting/manipulating vectors. I've been doing electronic engineering since 1982, and CorelDRAW is beating me up. Most advanced engineering packages seem to have a logical "feel" or "operational signature" to them, even printed circuit board layout systems, electronic simulation systems, and unix for that matter. CorelDRAW feels like "Windows" to me, maybe that is the disconnect - too many software designers, each with a different idea of how things should work. </rant>

Seriously, does anyone have any good sources of "How To" for CorelDRAW?

Sorry for the long post. Nice to meet you all!

David

Darren Null
05-28-2008, 1:28 PM
1) I also have noise and airflow problems on my machine- partially solved by masking-taping all the vents except those ones venting hot air away from the laser and power pack etc. Also, check connections/filters etc. You will be amazed at how fast your filters can cack up.

2) Vacuum tables- tape over all the holes that aren't required to hold your piece down. Failing that...masking tape. Lots and lots of masking tape.

3) Precision size- there's a size/scale/rotate docker that covers pretty well all the size things you need. I leave mine open all the time & it's the most frequently used tool in there for me

Placement- I have a default page that is exactly the same size as my bed; there's coordinates in the lower-left corner and if you have a page frame you can snap bits to the edge.

Combining/cutting/manipulating vectors- search the board...there's lots of different ways of doing things, depending upon what you're trying to achieve, and there are correspondingly lots of hints and tips on SMC. Also lots of addresses for Corel tutorials and howto videos.

Rodne Gold
05-28-2008, 1:49 PM
If you use guide lines , the grid and the snap to features of Corel , it will make it act more like something like ACAD. Use and get to know the align and distribute features as well and combine this with the properties bar and you will have all the features you need in terms of other CAd packages.

David Fairfield
05-28-2008, 2:10 PM
Holding material flat-- once you know where the laser lines are going, you can put metal washers, nuts, flat files, etc down on the wood that isn't cut. Tape works too.

In order to know where the lines are going to go, you can run the laser with the red dot on, and the lid up so it doesnt fire. Or you can cut a scrap paper sample.

Blower noise-- optimal solution is place the blower unit itself outside. You can build a simple hutch for it, or buy a plastic outdoor play house from Toys R Us. Additional benefit of having the fan outside is you have only suction on the interior portion of your air duct, which means if there is any leakage at your joints, air goes into the duct, but no smoke goes out.

HTH
Dave

David Brasfield
05-28-2008, 2:12 PM
If you use guide lines , the grid and the snap to features of Corel , it will make it act more like something like ACAD. Use and get to know the align and distribute features as well and combine this with the properties bar and you will have all the features you need in terms of other CAd packages.

Thanks for the reply, Rodne.

I was working on a simple project last night, using the features you mentioned (correctly, I thought), making parts for a box with finger joints. When it came time to join all the objects, there was misalignment between the squares (fingers) and the rectangle (box side), even though all positions and sizes were done with 1/1000 precision. I finally found part of the issue by zooming until I could see that the vectors didn't match.

I manually matched the lines, and never got the vectors combined enough to remove the unwanted portions of the squares. Weld didn't help as it simply removed square objects from inside the rectangle (and other strange things).

For what it is worth, the first project I did with X3 involved doing a trace of a bitmap, cleaning it up, then doing a simple vector cut. I kept sending the job to the laser, and it would do nothing other than beep and display "Done". I finally rebooted windows, opened Corel and the same file, hit print and it worked perfectly. Is it possible I am aggravating a known issue with X3?

Just thinking out loud...

David

David Fairfield
05-28-2008, 2:22 PM
For what it is worth, the first project I did with X3 involved doing a trace of a bitmap, cleaning it up, then doing a simple vector cut. I kept sending the job to the laser, and it would do nothing other than beep and display "Done". I finally rebooted windows, opened Corel and the same file, hit print and it worked perfectly. Is it possible I am aggravating a known issue with X3?


When stuff like this happens, check your print driver settings. When this happens to me its because I either mistakenly drew my vector lines larger than .001 and have the driver set for vector only, or because the lines are the correct with and I set the print driver for raster only.

It was about a year before I ran up against most of the potential conflicts and came up with solutions for them. Still finding a few new ones!

David Brasfield
05-28-2008, 2:35 PM
Holding material flat-- once you know where the laser lines are going, you can put metal washers, nuts, flat files, etc down on the wood that isn't cut. Tape works too.

In order to know where the lines are going to go, you can run the laser with the red dot on, and the lid up so it doesnt fire. Or you can cut a scrap paper sample.

Blower noise-- optimal solution is place the blower unit itself outside. You can build a simple hutch for it, or buy a plastic outdoor play house from Toys R Us. Additional benefit of having the fan outside is you have only suction on the interior portion of your air duct, which means if there is any leakage at your joints, air goes into the duct, but no smoke goes out.

HTH
Dave

Thanks for the reply Dave - good name by-the-way ;)

I can do what you suggest with thinner materials, but I haven't found anything thin, but heavy enough to hold down even 1/8 baltic birch, much less 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 ....

It looks like I will have to design a torsion box fixture of some sort that will hold the edges from the bottom. It's already spooky enough to watch the plywood change shape slightly from the heat of cutting it. I've been pre-cutting the pieces close to the final project size on the table saw, but for jobs like the ones I did yesterday where I cut 30 x20 inch sheets of 1/8 BB into 630 1 inch high numbers per sheet, you have to worry about a part falling out and wedging up enough to catch the cone as it comes across.

I have been manually focusing on what appears to be the highest point of the sheets, but that point can change as the sheet moves from the heat.

On the blower, I am hoping that simply swapping the ductwork and the blower with the universal brush type motor (LOUD - same type motor as used in routers), with a real induction motor and proper size ductwork, will solve the smoke and noise problem. The new blower is rated at 1500cfm @ 9.6 inches static pressure, and 62db noise level.

David

David Brasfield
05-28-2008, 2:42 PM
When stuff like this happens, check your print driver settings. When this happens to me its because I either mistakenly drew my vector lines larger than .001 and have the driver set for vector only, or because the lines are the correct with and I set the print driver for raster only.

It was about a year before I ran up against most of the potential conflicts and came up with solutions for them. Still finding a few new ones!

I did indeed check line size and the print driver. Both are actually mentioned in the Epilog manual (which I did read :))

I have had Corel crash several times when I was editing nodes. I have already learned to save often, and under different file names, and that the "recover" function - doesn't ;)

David

David Fairfield
05-28-2008, 2:53 PM
I did indeed check line size and the print driver. Both are actually mentioned in the Epilog manual (which I did read :))

I have had Corel crash several times when I was editing nodes. I have already learned to save often, and under different file names, and that the "recover" function - doesn't ;)

David

Yeah mysterious stuff does happen. Epilog's tech support is really good, call them up and ask when you run into a problem. Most of the time they have you back in business in minutes.

I run Adobe Illustrator on my Epilog, and I have a whole laundry list of do's and dont's. Some combinations of settings and dimensions will produce wierd results.

Take notes as you go along. I made a form to fill out for each job so that I can go back and reference things like which settings work for which materials, what settings gave me problems etc.

Can't really help you much with Corel, butfrom my Adobe experience, you also want to check the dimensions and orientation in the driver. They gotta match your document specs of your artwork otherwise the machine gets indigestion :p

The dimension & orientation issue is real easy to overlook. Also, the human operator's frame of mind while you are getting ready to hit the start button can be a bit ...ah... impatient. Helps to slow down and take 'er easy! :rolleyes:

Dave

Joe Pelonio
05-28-2008, 2:58 PM
Since your experience is with CAD, why not use it to create your work files, then just import them into Corel for sending to the laser?

For keeping thin wood flat an option I use at times is to apply a few bits of thin double sided tape and attach to a sacrificial piece of thicker acrylic or other material.

David Brasfield
05-28-2008, 3:27 PM
Since your experience is with CAD, why not use it to create your work files, then just import them into Corel for sending to the laser?

For keeping thin wood flat an option I use at times is to apply a few bits of thin double sided tape and attach to a sacrificial piece of thicker acrylic or other material.

Hi, Joe!

The reason for the Corel learning curve is so that I can help my wife with it. She will eventually take over the more creative side of things, and I want to be able to quickly do whatever touch up is needed on a project without inter-program conversion issues added to the mix. I also want to be able to take her work into my systems for doing CNC work. So I basically need to incorporate her into "my system", since I handle the technical side of things. I am creative, but my skills lend me toward turning a "onesy twosy" item into wholesale ready items, and doing large complex jobs.

On using the acrylic sacrificially, is that an issue when cutting, such as leaving residue or trapping smoke? How many times can you re-use a piece? I am wondering if it would be worthwhile to take a thick sheet and cut a lot of holes for airflow...

Thanks,
David

Joe Pelonio
05-28-2008, 4:40 PM
I've cut a lot of things with the same piece, it ends up with some shallow cuts in it is all. I never have problems with residue or smoke with my powerful exhaust. I often used "dead soldiers" which are 1/4" acrylic with lots of shapes already cut out, that I have laying around from previous jobs before the recycler show up.

David Brasfield
05-28-2008, 5:23 PM
I've cut a lot of things with the same piece, it ends up with some shallow cuts in it is all. I never have problems with residue or smoke with my powerful exhaust. I often used "dead soldiers" which are 1/4" acrylic with lots of shapes already cut out, that I have laying around from previous jobs before the recycler show up.

Thanks much, Joe.

That also gives me an idea for a simple torsion box where I can fasten down the thicker stuff from the underside.

David

Doug Griffith
05-28-2008, 7:16 PM
re #2: For thin stuff, even 1/8 ply, samarium-cobalt magnets work well. They are unbelievably strong (and expensive). You can get them from McMaster-Carr. A way to get them for free is to rip apart old hard drives that are laying around. I've found 2 large magnets in every hard drive I've tried. The etching table on an Epilog is magnetic. I do not know about other manufacturers.

re #3: If you were to use Adobe Illustrator, there is a plug-in suite called CadTools that has all sorts of precision bells and whistles. I'd be lost with it. The Adobe interface is also very intuitive.

Doug

Peck Sidara
05-28-2008, 7:48 PM
David,

Most reps have a few different selection of exhaust systems; from the cost-effective loud units that sit next to the laser system to roof mounted systems that aren't as noisy due to its location to high end self contained units that cost several thousand.

If you haven't owned your EXT for too long, talk to your rep and see what he can do in regards to a credit or a refund. Epilog has a recommended flow rating and a drawing of the ideal exhaust system in the manual. There's just so many routes you can go. It's just a matter of what you're willing to spend.

With that being said, your new exhaust system should do the trick. Keep the plumbing as straight and short as possible.

The stronger the exhaust the more smoke will be removed and the better the vacuum suction will work. If the material you're using doesn't cover the entire bed, cover the rest using scrap wood, plastic, aluminum etc.

The vacuum suction isn't designed to keep rigid substrates flat. When used properly it's to assist in keeping thin flexible materials flat and from moving.

If the wood you're working with still isn't flat with the above pointers and your new exhaust system, try adjusting the nozzle on the cone lens to where there's enough clearance at the high points. Your beam and cut quality isn't likely going to change by adjusting the nozzle up an 1/8" or so.

HTH,

Richard Rumancik
05-28-2008, 8:56 PM
Hi David; welcome . . .


Has anyone else had issues with airflow on the larger format machines?
David, I'd like to introduce you to Barb Macdonald. She is another forum member. You might have some things in common. Do a search on the term "big bed epilog" and read through what problems she had.

(It would also be nice to have enough airflow to remove the smoke out of the vector grid). The "Vacuum hold down" doesn't hold anything, and probably won't, even if the ports under the table lined up with the ports in the back side of the enclosure (below the flutes).
I think the problem stems from the fact that you can use your blower to exhaust smoke, or as a hold down, but not both. And if you try to do both you might not do either very well. You can get a light suction if you sacrifice air performance but it is not a vacuum hold down as you see with CNC routers. I and others gave Barb some suggestions in the thread mentioned above. I am not sure that she has really "solved" it though. Read through that first. You might want to PM her if you have questions.

So, has anyone come up with a good method for keeping materials flat on the table? I have a half dozen ideas in my head, none of which I want to implement if someone already has a decent fix they wouldn't mind sharing.
Weights and masking tape. Which are not very good solutions. Weights often get into the way of the cutting or carriage, fall off the material, etc. Tape does not stick well to birch. I have not tried magnets as my table is aluminum. I have pondered better solutions for birch as well as it gives me problems. You mention a torsion box – not sure what you have in mind exactly. I currently have a 4" raised frame on my table with the vector grid sitting above (works with a lot of the fixtures I make). But I currently don't have access to the underside of the grid from the front. (I don't know what your grid looks like but I use a simple 3/4" x 3/4" aluminum xy grid.)

If I modified my box to allow access to the underside, I could secure the plywood from the bottom to the grid. What I would do is lay the warped material on the grid, open up my Corel layout, and laser five or ten quarter-inch holes in the sheet in the scrap areas. If they are out of focus and cut poorly it is not important. Then (without moving anything) drop a pin or screw through the holes and tension from underneath (with a weight or ?) (Nuts/bolts would take too long I think.) Then when the sheet is "flat", refocus. If you try something like this let us know how you did it and your results . . .

Sometimes I make "relief cuts" before I start cutting the parts out. Takes some time but other solutions do to. If you cut the sheet in the scrap area it will often flatten it out. Then you do the final focus.

Also check around and find the best source. The cheapest source might not be the most cost-effective. There is good plywood and bad plywood.

3) I've been doing electronic engineering since 1982, and CorelDRAW is beating me up. Most advanced engineering packages seem to have a logical "feel" or "operational signature" to them. . .
I know how you feel . . . Corel was designed as a tool for artists, not technicians or engineers. Basic drawing operations can be very difficult at times. You will have to develop work-arounds for some things. In most CAD programs you can "snap" to lots of features but Corel 11 can't even find an intersection of two lines.
I do my accurate design work in CAD and import as dwg or dxf. I understand why you don't want to do this. So you will need a bag of tricks. Some you will have to discover/develop yourself. (Feel free to ask though.) But you should check out some add-ons available at places like oberonplace.com and isocalc.com. There might be other sites that have some good scripts that will help you do the things that Corel forgot to put in.

Good luck and ask questions . . . one suggestion though . . . if you put a single question in a posting it will stay on track better. So just ask a question a day.

David Fairfield
05-29-2008, 6:36 AM
Yeah Corel... I feel your pain. Its not even the industry standard for graphic artists. Adobe Illustrator is. Not sure why the laser industry chose Corel as their standard. Using Corel is like trying to use Adobe with a sinus headache. :(

For me when it was a choice between using Corel or figuring out the software conflicts with Adobe Illustrator and the laser's processor, I chose the lesser of two evils and stuck with Adobe.

Dave

Scott Shepherd
05-29-2008, 8:03 AM
I'm with you David. I come from the CADD/CAM world and learning how to draw in any graphics package has been frustrating to say the least. Simple things like drawing a line in the right place from scratch puzzles me, or trimming an element. Two things that are key to CAD and yet, not so key in Corel. I just can't get my mind around having to draw something and then move it to the right place. I want to draw it in the right place from scratch. It's twice as many steps to draw it and move it, as just drawing it in the right place.

Trimming is out there, but boy is it a challenge some times.

All in all, I think you really have to change the way you draw things. It's just two different beasts and if you try and apply CAD practices, you'll be frustrated. My advice is to just start learning it from scratch and pretend you didn't come from CAD.

Doug Griffith
05-29-2008, 8:29 AM
Here is something you might find useful:
http://debece.net/pages/propts.htm

Here is a useful CAD tool for both Illustrator and Corel:
http://www.kandusoftware.com/products/bezarc.php?product=Bezarc

Smart Guides are a beautiful thing in Illustrator. So is Transform, Align and Pathfinder.

Rob Bosworth
05-29-2008, 11:08 AM
Dave, other than the noise of the inexpensive exhaust blower, that blower should do a fairly good job of evacuating your effluents.

In any exhaust system, airflow is restricted in every corner, ripple, reduction or length of the ducting. If you are using some spiral wrapped flex ducting in your exhaust path, that will cut down on airflow efficiency. Each 45, 60 or 90 degree elbow will greatly reduce airflow. The longer the run to the outdoors, the more ooommmpppphhh your exhaust system will need to push the smoke out.

Reducing the the diameter of the ducting from 6" to 4" also restricts the flow. I try to run as much 6" ducting as possible, and only neck things down near where it has to be necked down.

I believe the "red" 1.5 hp. dust collector has a 6" dia. inlet on it. I believe Harbor Freight sells an adapter to that inlet that allows you to neck down to two 4" dia. inlet connections. This adapter is in a Y configuration, and causes less restriction of airflow than a T connection.

If you have an end cap or directional vent cover on your exhaust outlet, that will cause restrictions.

I agree with your assessment of the noise of your dust collector/ exhaust blower, but there is not much you can do with it but to isolate it and sound dampen the unit. But they are cheap.

I have run that exhaust blower on a number of Epilog 36 EXTs. Using it on both the 4" dia exhaust manifolds and the newer designed 6" manifolds. If everything is clean and SMOOTH, it does a pretty good job of evacuating smoke and debris.

As far as the downside exhaust match ups on the machine, I will let the boys at Epilog handle those questions.

Good luck. I think the 36 EXT is a really nice machine. Maybe too big for most applications, but pretty darn nice.

David Brasfield
05-29-2008, 11:56 AM
re #2: For thin stuff, even 1/8 ply, samarium-cobalt magnets work well. They are unbelievably strong (and expensive). You can get them from McMaster-Carr. A way to get them for free is to rip apart old hard drives that are laying around. I've found 2 large magnets in every hard drive I've tried. The etching table on an Epilog is magnetic. I do not know about other manufacturers.

re #3: If you were to use Adobe Illustrator, there is a plug-in suite called CadTools that has all sorts of precision bells and whistles. I'd be lost with it. The Adobe interface is also very intuitive.

Doug

Thanks, Doug.

I have some magnets, but don't use the etching table much yet since most of the work I have done so far required etching and cutting. I wonder how well those non-adhesive backed flexible magnetic strips would work. I haven't played with any of the magnetic material yet.

We have CS3 on one of the Macs, but only use it for graphics so far. I will have a look at it.

Thanks,
David

David Brasfield
05-29-2008, 12:17 PM
David,

Most reps have a few different selection of exhaust systems; from the cost-effective loud units that sit next to the laser system to roof mounted systems that aren't as noisy due to its location to high end self contained units that cost several thousand.

If you haven't owned your EXT for too long, talk to your rep and see what he can do in regards to a credit or a refund. Epilog has a recommended flow rating and a drawing of the ideal exhaust system in the manual. There's just so many routes you can go. It's just a matter of what you're willing to spend.

With that being said, your new exhaust system should do the trick. Keep the plumbing as straight and short as possible.

The stronger the exhaust the more smoke will be removed and the better the vacuum suction will work. If the material you're using doesn't cover the entire bed, cover the rest using scrap wood, plastic, aluminum etc.

The vacuum suction isn't designed to keep rigid substrates flat. When used properly it's to assist in keeping thin flexible materials flat and from moving.

If the wood you're working with still isn't flat with the above pointers and your new exhaust system, try adjusting the nozzle on the cone lens to where there's enough clearance at the high points. Your beam and cut quality isn't likely going to change by adjusting the nozzle up an 1/8" or so.

HTH,

Hi, Peck!

You actually did some test cuts for me before I bought the laser. I really appreciated Epilog's willingness to work with me.

I'm not worried about a refund from the rep, I think he was doing what he knew to do. I do think you guys might want to give him some instruction about exhausting the larger machines.

I also understand that the vacuum created under the tables is minimal, but some of what would have been available is lost when the internal ports and the table ports don't match up. A potential fix for you to consider would be sliding ports. Could be a good selling feature. Just being able to adjust airflow dynamics within the enclosure (say with baffling similar to an auto's AC system) would do wonders. Just some ideas. It's the engineer in me :)

Thanks for the tip on the nozzle, I assume that I can just rotate it to change the height?

The new blower system should be plenty quiet to have in the shop, and the total distance from center of the laser to the wall is less than 10 feet. Quiet isn't such a huge issue with me, because when the ShopBot is running, ear protection is mandatory (cutting, vacuuming, dust collection all at the same time), but we still like quiet whenever we can get it. Also, the 1hp "red" blower is brush type, vibrates across the floor unless we put it on foam, so it would probably self-destruct in less than 100 hours of operation anyway. Something else the rep should consider in the future.

Besides all that, who wants a loud vibrating red thing screaming and moving around sitting next to such a classy machine. That just doesn't seem right :)

Thanks,
David

David Brasfield
05-29-2008, 1:11 PM
Hi David; welcome . . .


David, I'd like to introduce you to Barb Macdonald. She is another forum member. You might have some things in common. Do a search on the term "big bed epilog" and read through what problems she had.

I think the problem stems from the fact that you can use your blower to exhaust smoke, or as a hold down, but not both. And if you try to do both you might not do either very well. You can get a light suction if you sacrifice air performance but it is not a vacuum hold down as you see with CNC routers. I and others gave Barb some suggestions in the thread mentioned above. I am not sure that she has really "solved" it though. Read through that first. You might want to PM her if you have questions.

Weights and masking tape. Which are not very good solutions. Weights often get into the way of the cutting or carriage, fall off the material, etc. Tape does not stick well to birch. I have not tried magnets as my table is aluminum. I have pondered better solutions for birch as well as it gives me problems. You mention a torsion box – not sure what you have in mind exactly. I currently have a 4" raised frame on my table with the vector grid sitting above (works with a lot of the fixtures I make). But I currently don't have access to the underside of the grid from the front. (I don't know what your grid looks like but I use a simple 3/4" x 3/4" aluminum xy grid.)

If I modified my box to allow access to the underside, I could secure the plywood from the bottom to the grid. What I would do is lay the warped material on the grid, open up my Corel layout, and laser five or ten quarter-inch holes in the sheet in the scrap areas. If they are out of focus and cut poorly it is not important. Then (without moving anything) drop a pin or screw through the holes and tension from underneath (with a weight or ?) (Nuts/bolts would take too long I think.) Then when the sheet is "flat", refocus. If you try something like this let us know how you did it and your results . . .

Sometimes I make "relief cuts" before I start cutting the parts out. Takes some time but other solutions do to. If you cut the sheet in the scrap area it will often flatten it out. Then you do the final focus.

Also check around and find the best source. The cheapest source might not be the most cost-effective. There is good plywood and bad plywood.

I know how you feel . . . Corel was designed as a tool for artists, not technicians or engineers. Basic drawing operations can be very difficult at times. You will have to develop work-arounds for some things. In most CAD programs you can "snap" to lots of features but Corel 11 can't even find an intersection of two lines.
I do my accurate design work in CAD and import as dwg or dxf. I understand why you don't want to do this. So you will need a bag of tricks. Some you will have to discover/develop yourself. (Feel free to ask though.) But you should check out some add-ons available at places like oberonplace.com and isocalc.com. There might be other sites that have some good scripts that will help you do the things that Corel forgot to put in.

Good luck and ask questions . . . one suggestion though . . . if you put a single question in a posting it will stay on track better. So just ask a question a day.

Hi, Richard!.

Thanks for the lengthy reply. You're right, I should have broken it down to multiple threads :-)

I have read all of Barb's (my wife's name as well) blower experiences. She has been through the ringer. I will get my system to do what I need and pass on what I learn to her in the next few weeks. I have a really nice shop-wide all metal (the welded thick wall piping and branches) system with automated gates. I will send some pics when I get a chance. I'm kinda proud of it :)

I have the vector cutting table and etching table from Epilog. The torsion box concept is simply because they will remain flat under pressure, the issue was how to fasten down materials of varying size. If acrylic does allow me to vector on top of it without leaving smoke and resin on the ply, then I can come up with a simple way to fasten the boards down with some kind of low-profile fastener. My first effort may simply be either a rigid aluminum frame to which I can attach a 1/2 inch piece of sacrificial acrylic, or maybe a frame made from ply. If the acrylic works, then I will make a template drawing and vector a bunch of holes in it for airflow and for the fasteners.

I built a large storage building about 5 years ago. I designed it with two hinged 8' x 10' X 6" doors on the front. I used my own torsion box design, and even though the doors weigh about 500 pounds each, they have never drooped even 1/8 inch. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I have this thing for torsion box designs :)

As for the ply I have in stock, it was all A/B baltic birch left over from a large purchase back in 2004. I think I have 1 sheet of 3/4, 4 sheets of 1/2, and 8 sheets of 1/8 left. It is as flat as you will find. The shop is fully air-conditioned. That is why I am anticipating problems with material far worse than I am dealing with now.

I am completely with you on finding intersects in Corel. I spent over 2 hours last night trying to figure out how to create sub-paths from existing paths before I found "extract subpath" on the tool bar. Why they left it out of the list of options when you right-click a node or vector, beats me. I am still wasting a lot of time "hovering" the mouse to figure out what the icons on the tool bars are. Some are obvious, a few. Then 5 minutes into creating some subpaths, the program simply "went away", leaving me looking at a basic windows screen with no open programs. The first night I used it, all of the toolbars disappeared, so I had to google info on resetting program defaults. Since last night, I have lost the ability to select a vector by clicking on it, in object mode :)

I will spend some time today looking at add-ons.

Thanks,
David

David Brasfield
05-29-2008, 1:22 PM
Yeah Corel... I feel your pain. Its not even the industry standard for graphic artists. Adobe Illustrator is. Not sure why the laser industry chose Corel as their standard. Using Corel is like trying to use Adobe with a sinus headache. :(

For me when it was a choice between using Corel or figuring out the software conflicts with Adobe Illustrator and the laser's processor, I chose the lesser of two evils and stuck with Adobe.

Dave

I hear your pain :-)

I have a a couple of nice Macs and CS3. Assembly is my native language (shows my age), and unix is my best friend. I don't think I will ever forgive Bill Gates for stealing CP/M, stripping it of a decent file system, replacing "/" with "\", and taking away its ability to handle reentrant system calls, then calling it MSdos... (no offense to the windows aficionados' out there).

:)

David

David Brasfield
05-29-2008, 1:31 PM
I'm with you David. I come from the CADD/CAM world and learning how to draw in any graphics package has been frustrating to say the least. Simple things like drawing a line in the right place from scratch puzzles me, or trimming an element. Two things that are key to CAD and yet, not so key in Corel. I just can't get my mind around having to draw something and then move it to the right place. I want to draw it in the right place from scratch. It's twice as many steps to draw it and move it, as just drawing it in the right place.

Trimming is out there, but boy is it a challenge some times.

All in all, I think you really have to change the way you draw things. It's just two different beasts and if you try and apply CAD practices, you'll be frustrated. My advice is to just start learning it from scratch and pretend you didn't come from CAD.

All I can say is amen.

My first real project was a simple, precisely even spaced group of squares and rectangles that I wanted to intersect, then remove unwanted lines. I figured most of it out, only to find that trimming one line is a time consuming effort, and I have a bunch of them to do. I am sure (I hope) that there is a trick to it. I would like to find it soon.

David

David Brasfield
05-29-2008, 1:32 PM
Here is something you might find useful:
http://debece.net/pages/propts.htm

Here is a useful CAD tool for both Illustrator and Corel:
http://www.kandusoftware.com/products/bezarc.php?product=Bezarc

Smart Guides are a beautiful thing in Illustrator. So is Transform, Align and Pathfinder.

Thanks for the links Doug!!

David

David Brasfield
05-29-2008, 2:37 PM
Dave, other than the noise of the inexpensive exhaust blower, that blower should do a fairly good job of evacuating your effluents.

In any exhaust system, airflow is restricted in every corner, ripple, reduction or length of the ducting. If you are using some spiral wrapped flex ducting in your exhaust path, that will cut down on airflow efficiency. Each 45, 60 or 90 degree elbow will greatly reduce airflow. The longer the run to the outdoors, the more ooommmpppphhh your exhaust system will need to push the smoke out.

Reducing the the diameter of the ducting from 6" to 4" also restricts the flow. I try to run as much 6" ducting as possible, and only neck things down near where it has to be necked down.

I believe the "red" 1.5 hp. dust collector has a 6" dia. inlet on it. I believe Harbor Freight sells an adapter to that inlet that allows you to neck down to two 4" dia. inlet connections. This adapter is in a Y configuration, and causes less restriction of airflow than a T connection.

If you have an end cap or directional vent cover on your exhaust outlet, that will cause restrictions.

I agree with your assessment of the noise of your dust collector/ exhaust blower, but there is not much you can do with it but to isolate it and sound dampen the unit. But they are cheap.

I have run that exhaust blower on a number of Epilog 36 EXTs. Using it on both the 4" dia exhaust manifolds and the newer designed 6" manifolds. If everything is clean and SMOOTH, it does a pretty good job of evacuating smoke and debris.

As far as the downside exhaust match ups on the machine, I will let the boys at Epilog handle those questions.

Good luck. I think the 36 EXT is a really nice machine. Maybe too big for most applications, but pretty darn nice.

Hi, Rob.

Thanks for the reply. The blower is the 1hp version and has a 4 inch inlet, and sits less than three feet away from the laser. The only turn in the system is the tee between the ports on laser. Exiting the blower is a straight run of pipe out the wall that doesn't even have a screen over the end to keep the wasps out :-) It was just too small to begin with. I should have made a more in depth query regarding the exhaust requirements before I bought the system. I seriously doubt that particular blower meets the CFM/static pressure requirements Epilog publishes for that laser.

On the 1.5hp blower you are talking about, does it use a "universal" brush type motor, or a regular induction motor? The model I have is 94029 from Harbor Freight.

I am well pleased with the Epilog so far. I just need to de-ugly the exhaust system :)

David

Barb Macdonald
05-29-2008, 9:37 PM
if you haven't owned your EXT for too long, talk to your rep and see what he can do in regards to a credit or a refund. Epilog has a recommended flow rating and a drawing of the ideal exhaust system in the manual. There's just so many routes you can go. It's just a matter of what you're willing to spend.
OMG.
Well, Peck, maybe I can expect a refund? The recommended specs supplied by Epilog were woefully inadequate, and I mentioned this several times, in my postings regarding my myriad exhaust issues, which continue to be ongoing. I spent, all told, $6000.00. I still don't have enough exhaust. The bigger tables must be much more difficult to exhaust. I've seen the smaller beds, the specs supplied by Epilog were the SAME as for the small beds. I followed Epilog specs for the first installation, then went to the big noisy blower, both on the roof. Epilog sent me a new front grate. It helps, a little bit. I still have smoke hanging in the cabinet. The only way to improve it would be to make all material thicker, or at least further down in the bed, so that the ports are more opened. I need to make a thick false bed. That's my next fix.
IF I'd known how much exhaust I actually required when I first bought the machine, I would not still be having these issues today.

I don't mind spending $$. I do mind wasting 'em.

sorry, needed to rant.
Thanks
Barb

Barb Macdonald
05-29-2008, 9:38 PM
I have an epilog legend ext 60 watt.

merci!

b

David Brasfield
05-30-2008, 12:00 AM
I followed Epilog specs for the first installation, then went to the big noisy blower, both on the roof....
.....

sorry, needed to rant.
Thanks
Barb

Hi, Barb :)

The "noisy" part is what keeps getting my attention. There is no reason that a larger blower with an induction motor should be very loud. My 3hp dust system will aggressively pull chips and dust out of 3+ machines (table saw, router, shaper, ShopBot, Miter saw) running at the same time. The vacuum system itself is only slightly louder than the air-conditioning.

My point is that moving a reasonable amount of air does not mean making a lot of noise. Again, that makes me wonder just what is sitting on your roof.

Does your blower operate on 220/240 volts, or on 110/120 volts? If it is a blower that utilizes a "universal" motor (one with brushes), then it is going to be LOUD. An example of a small "universal" type motor would be similar to the one used in a kitchen mixer. Larger ones are used in old style (and some new ones) shop vacs and in all hand held routers (LOUD).

The other problem when you mention noise, is the other primary issue with universal type motors, and that is efficiency. They aren't, and don't produce nearly as much power as a standard electrical motor of the same HP rating. Manufacturers love to play with the numbers, especially with devices that utilize universal (brush type) motors. The main advantages of universal type motors is that they are cheap to produce and smaller than a standard motor.

David

David Brasfield
05-30-2008, 12:48 AM
On to this evening's Corel problem.

I was trimming away at unused nodes, happily deleting along - one by one (still haven't figured out how to group a bunch for deletion). I was clicking the node with the mouse, then using the D key to delete. All of a sudden, each press of the "d" key brought up a grid tool from the poly items on the left side bar.

I gave up trying to get it back to normal.

Anyone have any idea what keys I bumped to cause this behavior?

Thanks,
David

James Stokes
05-30-2008, 1:19 AM
I can not answer that but I can tell you how to reduce nodes.
Take your curser and select the curve you want to reduce, It will light up. Then take the curser again and sweep select on the selected curve, all of the nodes you select will light up. Look at the top of the screan, the reduce nodes box will activate. Hit the slider button there and you can adjust the slider to reduce nodes.

James Stokes
05-30-2008, 1:48 AM
I tried to make screan shots to describe.

David Brasfield
05-30-2008, 7:54 AM
I can not answer that but I can tell you how to reduce nodes.
Take your curser and select the curve you want to reduce, It will light up. Then take the curser again and sweep select on the selected curve, all of the nodes you select will light up. Look at the top of the screan, the reduce nodes box will activate. Hit the slider button there and you can adjust the slider to reduce nodes.

That makes sense. Thanks, James.

It looks like I will have to "restore menu defaults" again to get the "D" back to normal :) Evidently I keep accidently customizing the various menus/tool bars.

David

Peck Sidara
05-30-2008, 9:30 AM
if you haven't owned your EXT for too long, talk to your rep and see what he can do in regards to a credit or a refund. Epilog has a recommended flow rating and a drawing of the ideal exhaust system in the manual. There's just so many routes you can go. It's just a matter of what you're willing to spend.
OMG.
Well, Peck, maybe I can expect a refund? The recommended specs supplied by Epilog were woefully inadequate, and I mentioned this several times, in my postings regarding my myriad exhaust issues, which continue to be ongoing. I spent, all told, $6000.00. I still don't have enough exhaust. The bigger tables must be much more difficult to exhaust. I've seen the smaller beds, the specs supplied by Epilog were the SAME as for the small beds. I followed Epilog specs for the first installation, then went to the big noisy blower, both on the roof. Epilog sent me a new front grate. It helps, a little bit. I still have smoke hanging in the cabinet. The only way to improve it would be to make all material thicker, or at least further down in the bed, so that the ports are more opened. I need to make a thick false bed. That's my next fix.
IF I'd known how much exhaust I actually required when I first bought the machine, I would not still be having these issues today.

I don't mind spending $$. I do mind wasting 'em.

sorry, needed to rant.
Thanks
Barb

Barb, I think the key word is "rep". If David hasn't had his system w/ exhaust for that long, it was suggested that he contact his rep to see what they could do for him.

I've not been blind to your situation and if you recall, we worked off-line for several weeks looking for a solution. I stayed in contact until additional panels were delivered here at the factory, shipped and installed on your machine. Upon my follow up email/PM, we were in agreeance that it did not increase the exhaust flow by 100% but *did significantly improve the flow more than 50% or better*.

The "solution" was to install the panels, monitor the flow/amount of dust/smoke/debris build up, consult with your "HVAC friend of a friend" and to keep me in the loop.

I've answered your question in regards to a refund/reimbursement several months back via PM.

If you'd like to continue working on a solution or are looking for some additional suggestions, please contact me offliine via email or at 888.437.4564 ext. 236.

Scott Shepherd
05-30-2008, 1:06 PM
David, look at Virtual Segment Delete for trimming with some more ease. It's in the Crop Flyout (3rd one down on the menu on the left). I think that'll help you in the future.

For the D question, it's probably a caps lock issue. Capital "D" is the shortcut key for the Graph Paper Tool. Make sure caps lock isn't on.

David Brasfield
05-30-2008, 2:21 PM
David, look at Virtual Segment Delete for trimming with some more ease. It's in the Crop Flyout (3rd one down on the menu on the left). I think that'll help you in the future.

For the D question, it's probably a caps lock issue. Capital "D" is the shortcut key for the Graph Paper Tool. Make sure caps lock isn't on.

Thanks for the tip! I don't think I would have ever thought to look under the crop flyout.

On the D issue, caps lock was the first thing I checked. Lower or upper case, when I selected a node, the grid tool (on the poly flyout I think) popped up over the cursor.

Thanks,
David

James Stokes
05-30-2008, 3:00 PM
The virtual delete tool just deletes lines not nodes.

Scott Shepherd
05-30-2008, 5:45 PM
Yes, I was referring to the tools commonly missed by people coming from CAD. Trim is one of those features that's so easy in CAD, yet a bit hit and miss and often confusing in Corel (as well as a lot of graphics programs).

Richard Rumancik
05-30-2008, 10:47 PM
I mentioned oberonplace.com earlier - they have an add-on called CurveWorks. It is supposed to have a trim feature that can find intersections.

Also I see it has a radius feature. Can CorelDraw X4 fillet a corner without an add-on or is the filleting operation still missing?

David Brasfield
05-30-2008, 11:11 PM
Hi, Guys.

Well, I just finished a project, and it looks great, but I feel like I have regressed about 2 decades. :)

An open path is is a big no no in most of the work I do. Evidently, it doesn't matter much if you get close enough in Corel.

I spent a couple of hours trying to draw a circle, then add a few nodes, and break part of it off, close the path, and extract the subpath. No matter what I did, I could never get it to let me break it out, even though I could select just the closed path/vector (red). So I ended up hacking up two circles, throwing away the parts I didn't need, and leaving the ends "dangling" just so I could have two different line sizes in the same circle. Too weird.

Again, I am sure there is an easy way to do it, but I couldn't find it.... Oh, and that doesn't count the two times Corel crashed, once before it completely died, it decided to put the font pull down window on the screen, but unconnected to the tool bar in any way.

I have been on some steep learning curves before. I sure hope this one is worthwhile.

I would upgrade to X4 if it would solve the weirdness, but somehow I think not.

Getting the laser to do what I want has turned out to be the easy part.

:)

David

David Brasfield
05-30-2008, 11:22 PM
I mentioned oberonplace.com earlier - they have an add-on called CurveWorks. It is supposed to have a trim feature that can find intersections.


I took a look at the curves package. I think it would definitely add some functionality to X3 that I am missing.

Thanks,
David

Barb Macdonald
05-31-2008, 5:32 AM
Hi all
Peck, I am not trying to start anything new. I have had this issue since I got the machine. Talk this over with my rep. I have a lengthy paper trail of what has happened.
I did everything possible to supply my Abigail with the proper exhaust power. I am on "holidays" right now, nowhere near my shop. Don't want to think about it right now!
I think my machine has some excellent qualities, but I do feel I was let down by my sales rep., and by tech support, in regards to this issue.
When I e-mailed you re: the improvement after installing a new front grate, I believe I said it had improved. The extent to which it has improved is hard to measure, since I have no means by which to compare. I am not a big fan of "testing", I did a LONG run of reverse-blue gravoply, and when I did my requisite cleaning, the blue was all over the encoder strip. It depends on what you're doing.
My hearing has suffered, since I got Abigail's big exhaust. My next option, I guess, would be to install a second blower right behind the machine. As I have already mentioned, the coffers are low, and I spent enough, already!!
A good buddy has the 18x24 table, he has more bends and kinks, and elbows, running from his exhaust, and he has a hard time lifting stuff off the bed when the exhaust is on. I've never had that problem, but I WISH I DID!!
I love Corel, I've found it similar to our old CASmate software, which is still going strong.... Best way to learn Corel is to play with it for hours and hours.... But I have zero experience with CAD.
Thanks to all the creekers....

B

David Brasfield
05-31-2008, 10:47 AM
Hi all....
Thanks to all the creekers....

B

Hi, Barb.

I promise I won't try to chase you down. ;)

I just wanted to be sure that you had read my post to you where I talked about noise and certain types of motors. If you felt up to answering my questions in the post, I might be able to help you with a solution.

If you have had a chance to followed my thread, you should see that my mistake was my confidence in the rep's understanding of what I needed, not in my misunderstanding the physics of the issue. The system I will have installed within the next couple of weeks should literally make the doors on the machine hard to open when it is running. It will also be QUIET.

If you want some third-party help that won't cost you anything, then let's rehash your issues once again, even though I know you must hate that by now. I believe that I can help you with a simple change that will fix your problem with exhaust.

If not, then I certainly wish you all the best, and I hope that you won't give up. I hate the idea of you giving up on a business with decent potential just because of an airflow issue. I know that I am only an electrical/electronic engineer, but I have a very good understanding of physics. I'm not going to suffer with airflow problems, and my fix for my situation will cost less than $320, and NOT kill my hearing.

David

Scott Shepherd
05-31-2008, 11:36 AM
Barb's issue is one that's been going on for some time. This is the exact time Epilog needs to step up to the plate and pay whatever to takes to resolve this issue completely.

I don't know the details any more than anyone who's read the posts does, but this is the exact type of service that caused our sales rep to buy our machine back. It's a known problem and the customer is suffering poor performance.

It's obviously not something tech support can answer, it's an engineering issue. I've said it before, I think Epilog's tech support is excellent, but the next level up from tech support, they fall way short. The next level up needs to be as customer oriented as their tech support is.

I've had that level on the phone and asked when my problem would be resolved and I was told, and I quote, "We're not going to play that game. It'll be done when it's done and we're not going to put a date on it". Well, we don't partially pay for machines when we buy them, we pay in full, for a machine that works as sold. Any poor performance or hidden cost to make it work as advertised needs to be dealt with in a much better manner, in my opinion.

Barb's sunk thousands and thousands of dollars in and tech support has done all they can do, but yet the problem still exists. Now what? Wait until she stops complaining?

If I wasn't clear enough, let me be crystal clear. Peck (not in service any longer) and the tech support guys do a great job, but it's not tech support who's letting this drag on (in my opinion). Anyone can stock a warehouse full of parts and send parts out next day. That's not the most important part of a company's reputation. It's how they treat those customers when the parts don't fix the easy stuff is what counts, and in this case, from a distance, it looks like they are failing.

Step up and make it right. Not two weeks from now, not a month from now, not 3 months from now. Now.

Martin Reynolds
05-31-2008, 12:47 PM
I use a three-step process.

Scan original into Corel, and cut and paste from Corel into Turbocad
Construct Turbocad master using bitmap as a guide
Save as DXF, and read back into Corel

My experience with Corel is the same as yours. It is designed for artistic drawing, not technical drawing. So things that are easy in CAD are hard in Corel, and vice versa.

Richard Rumancik
05-31-2008, 1:31 PM
An open path is is a big no no in most of the work I do. Evidently, it doesn't matter much if you get close enough in Corel.

Well, it does matter if you want to fill it, or trim/intersect it with another shape. Then you want a closed shape.


I spent a couple of hours trying to draw a circle, then add a few nodes, and break part of it off, close the path, and extract the subpath. . . . Again, I am sure there is an easy way to do it, but I couldn't find it

David, try this. Suppose you want to draw "half a pie". Draw a circle. You will see it has one node. Convert the circle to curves by using Arrange ->convert to curves. Then you will see 4 nodes 90 degrees apart. Click on one node with the node edit (shape) tool or right-click. Either way, find and click "break apart". Then go to the opposite node and do the same thing.

The next thing to do is Arrange ->break curve apart. Now you will have two semi-circles. Delete one of them. You are left with an open semi-circle. Click Arrange->close path -> close path with straight lines. You should have half a pie.

Does this help at all?

By the way - if you have a shape and you are trying to close it, you may need to join coincident nodes back together. For example, go back to the point where you had two separate semi-circles. Let's suppose you wanted to reverse the process. You select both halves, and click Arrange->Combine. Then select one pair of overlapping nodes (using a window selection of the shape tool) and click "Join two nodes". Do the same on the other side. Now you are back to a closed circle. (The simple test is that if it will fill, it is closed properly.)

David Brasfield
05-31-2008, 3:26 PM
It's obviously not something tech support can answer, it's an engineering issue. I've said it before, I think Epilog's tech support is excellent, but the next level up from tech support, they fall way short. The next level up needs to be as customer oriented as their tech support is.

I don't know anything other than what Barb has written, and the recent comments made to her (publicly) by Peck.

I do know that Epilog clearly states the CFM/Static pressure requirements for the box. I also know that the little "1hp" blower provided by my rep may actually move 914 CFM as spec'd in the manual that came with it, but I also know that there is no way that motor/rotor combination is going to move that much air unless it is spinning itself to the point of self-destruction, with no ductwork whatsoever connected to it. Therefore, the CFM rating without some corresponding ADDITIONAL specifications is absolutely useless, and benefits ONLY the manufacturer(of the MOTOR/BLOWER), and amplifies issues that shouldn't have to be solved by Epilog, other than in training their reps not to buy blowers without complete specifications which MATCH OR EXCEED Epilogs stated requirements.

Even so, my understanding is that Barb outsourced her exhaust system to a third party. That introduces yet another layer of potential confusion.

My concern, which may be proven to be unfounded, is that since her blower is "loud", possibly indicating the motor type is "universal", and if so that it might be way too small for the job, regardless of the manufacturer's (motor) rated claims of horsepower, CFM and static pressure.

That would leave both Barb and the Epilog people in a state of confusion.

David

David Brasfield
05-31-2008, 3:31 PM
I use a three-step process.

Scan original into Corel, and cut and paste from Corel into Turbocad
Construct Turbocad master using bitmap as a guide
Save as DXF, and read back into Corel

My experience with Corel is the same as yours. It is designed for artistic drawing, not technical drawing. So things that are easy in CAD are hard in Corel, and vice versa.

Hi, Martin.

I was hoping to avoid moving files back and forth, but I may have no choice. I am going to stick with it for a while and see if I can adapt to some reasonable facsimile of productivity with X3.

Thanks,
David

David Brasfield
05-31-2008, 3:42 PM
Well, it does matter if you want to fill it, or trim/intersect it with another shape. Then you want a closed shape.



David, try this. Suppose you want to draw "half a pie". Draw a circle. You will see it has one node. Convert the circle to curves by using Arrange ->convert to curves. Then you will see 4 nodes 90 degrees apart. Click on one node with the node edit (shape) tool or right-click. Either way, find and click "break apart". Then go to the opposite node and do the same thing.

The next thing to do is Arrange ->break curve apart. Now you will have two semi-circles. Delete one of them. You are left with an open semi-circle. Click Arrange->close path -> close path with straight lines. You should have half a pie.

Does this help at all?

By the way - if you have a shape and you are trying to close it, you may need to join coincident nodes back together. For example, go back to the point where you had two separate semi-circles. Let's suppose you wanted to reverse the process. You select both halves, and click Arrange->Combine. Then select one pair of overlapping nodes (using a window selection of the shape tool) and click "Join two nodes". Do the same on the other side. Now you are back to a closed circle. (The simple test is that if it will fill, it is closed properly.)

In all honesty, I thought that I was following the procedure much as you defined it, even closing the path, then selecting it for extraction. It would highlight in red, but the extract path function was never available.

You are right, of course, about needing closed paths for fills.

I spent some time on the Corel website last night, and I am going to apply all the patches for X3 even though it is supposed to be up to date. It is still doing some bizarre things. Like leaving the font menu in the center of the screen when I am not in text mode :)

If nothing else, I will wipe it and do a re-install. There is no telling what I have done to it during my learning curve. If I can get it to do basics, then I will be happy.

I will also follow your example above verbatim this evening and let you know the results.

Thanks for your time.
David

Richard Rumancik
05-31-2008, 7:00 PM
I do know that Epilog clearly states the CFM/Static pressure requirements for the box. . . . the CFM rating without some corresponding ADDITIONAL specifications is absolutely useless . . .

You are right, you need an airflow/static pressure curve of the blower; plus knowing duct sizes, lengths, number or elbows, and exhaust method of the actual installation will also be relevant. What happened in Barb's case if I recall correctly is roughly this: Epilog accidently put the wrong requirement of 400 cfm (@6") in the spec. Barb's contractor doubled the number and gave her a 800 cfm blower (@6"). Then Epilog adjusted the spec requirement to 800 or 900 (not sure of the exact number.) Which put her in "marginal" territory.


My concern, which may be proven to be unfounded, is that since her blower is "loud", possibly indicating the motor type is "universal", and if so that it might be way too small for the job, regardless of the manufacturer's (motor) rated claims of horsepower, CFM and static pressure.
She had (still has?) a Peerless PW-12 which is a 3hp 3500 rpm blower which is probably way more blower than 90% of the people on this forum. It uses an induction motor. I looked at the spec and it looked like a pretty decent industrial blower to me. It is no Harbour Freight dust collector.

A 3 hp motor on the roof running 3500 rpm WILL make some noise. Plus it depends on how well it is mounted. So the noise does not indicate a cheap blower.

David Brasfield
05-31-2008, 10:07 PM
You are right, you need an airflow/static pressure curve of the blower; plus knowing duct sizes, lengths, number or elbows, and exhaust method of the actual installation will also be relevant. What happened in Barb's case if I recall correctly is roughly this: Epilog accidently put the wrong requirement of 400 cfm (@6") in the spec. Barb's contractor doubled the number and gave her a 800 cfm blower (@6"). Then Epilog adjusted the spec requirement to 800 or 900 (not sure of the exact number.) Which put her in "marginal" territory.


She had (still has?) a Peerless PW-12 which is a 3hp 3500 rpm blower which is probably way more blower than 90% of the people on this forum. It uses an induction motor. I looked at the spec and it looked like a pretty decent industrial blower to me. It is no Harbour Freight dust collector.

A 3 hp motor on the roof running 3500 rpm WILL make some noise. Plus it depends on how well it is mounted. So the noise does not indicate a cheap blower.

Hi, Richard.

I looked at the specs for the Peerless. and it is 842 CFM @ 6 inches, which considering any restrictions in the ductwork, and those figures move down substantially. Even with no static pressure, the blower was at 1185 CFM. A decent blower for a 3HP vacuum system should be able to pull 2000+ CFM, and at least 20 inches max pressure. Epilog states 800 CFM @ 6 inches for the 9000 series as a minimum.

I looked at the construction of the Peerless as well.

The construction of "blowers" designed for dust systems is a bit different, and result in some better numbers for the intended application. If you change the perception from one of "exhausting the enclosure" to one of a large volume vacuum, then I believe the solution becomes more obvious.

I should have my new system hooked up next week. Then I can say for sure that there is an inexpensive solution to her needs. My approach is to use a blower from a medium volume vacuum system with specs of 1500 CFM @9.6 inches static pressure, that uses about 2 horsepower, and is quiet at 65db. I also have a very short path between the laser and the exhaust wall.

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_pressure and scroll down to the "Static pressure in fluid dynamics" section. The issue is complex to say the least, and taking Epilog at its word for their minimum requirements, and multiplying by a factor of 1.5 would be a good place to start for an adequate exhaust system under average installed conditions in my opinion, especially considering the size of the cabinet.


David

Mike Mackenzie
06-02-2008, 9:28 PM
David,

I am very curious on which blower you are going to be using please keep us posted on the model and mfg.

Richard Rumancik
06-02-2008, 11:38 PM
A decent blower for a 3HP vacuum system should be able to pull 2000+ CFM, and at least 20 inches max pressure.

My approach is to use a blower from a medium volume vacuum system with specs of 1500 CFM @9.6 inches static pressure, that uses about 2 horsepower, and is quiet at 65db.

David, I am curious as well . . . I have looked at a lot of blower specs and I just don't know how you can get this performance with 2 hp. Do you mind revealing the manufacturer/part number?

Many dust collector blowers are poorly defined by the manufacturers; I find that the industrial exhaust fans are typically spec'd much more thoroughly. I have yet to find an actual performance curve for a dust collector unit. Some specifications don't even address static pressure.

To get 1500 CFM and 9.6" using a Peerless branded unit (which are spec'd as suitable for exhaust systems) you would need over 7.5 hp (it is actually off the chart). Something is not right if a dust collector can hit the same performance point with only 2 hp.

You seem to be suggesting that the Peerless-style pressure blower might not be ideal for laser exhaust systems but in my experience these types of blowers are commonly used for exhaust systems. Dust extractors are similar to exhaust blowers but not identical; for dust collecting you have to maintain a certain air velocity to move particles. But for a laser this is much less of a requirement as it is mainly smoke and gasses from combustion. Can you elaborate as to why you feel a centrifugal pressure blower is not as suitable as a dust collector?

The requirement to have the blower sitting very close to the laser is not practical for everybody, often due to space and/or noise constraints. I have my blower in a garage attic which moves the noise well away from the work area and enables me to exhaust at a high elevation. I certainly would not want it on the other side of my wall due to noise.

David Brasfield
06-03-2008, 1:53 AM
I figured I would stir up some controversy. Not intentional.

Like I said earlier, the approach is what I looked at. High volume vacuum systems will move more air at higher static pressures than a system designed for exhaust. A look at the air distribution inside the cabinet of the the 9000 series cabinet "screams" vacuum to me (in my little engineer brain), rather than smooth flow exhaust.

Well designed vacuum blowers don't incorporate straight fins on the impeller. They are typically designed more "screw like", and can move more air under greater pressure. It is an efficiency issue.

Think about it this way. If an aircraft propeller had no pitch, and was flat, it would produce no lift, and not move the aircraft. Many aircraft have variable pitch systems which are adjustable for the greatest efficiency at a given speed/horsepower ratio.

Blowers with straight fins work by creating a pressure difference between the two openings. While that works, with a modest bit of additional engineering, that process can be made much more efficient. That usually increases cost, however. With the influx of China made copies of what would otherwise be some more costly technology, the better blowers are out there, and cheap.

Have a look at the impellers on the peerless systems. Then have a look at some designs on the major dust/chip handling systems.

The really good "blowers" will appear to work in reverse of the standard side fed(intake) blowers, being end fed and exhausting out the side as in many "cyclone" systems.

I'm not trying to stir anything up. I will be glad to provide part numbers and photos when my system is up and if it stands up to the test.

As for published specs, I don't really take anyone's specs at face value. Sears tells me it can get 6.5 horsepower from a shop vac powered by 120 volts at 12 amps. That folks, would be a true miracle. In a perfect world, that would equate to about 1.9 horsepower. Add in design and electrical/motor inefficiencies, and real world output would be about 1.5 - give or take.

David

David Brasfield
06-03-2008, 2:19 AM
I am out of butt for the evening, but I though this was a rather straight forward treatise of some of the issues of air handling.

http://www.dmr-hvac.com/Downloads%20&%20PDF%20Files/HPAC%20email%20Newsletter%20-%20Static%20Pressure%20Paradox.pdf

" The Static Pressure Paradox
An important consideration during fan selection"

I'm sure there are better links. I will find more later.

David

Richard Rumancik
06-03-2008, 5:39 PM
I figured I would stir up some controversy. Not intentional.
Not for me either - some of us are just hoping for a "Eureka" as a few members have struggled with exhaust problems in the past.

I want to ensure nobody breaks any laws of conservation of energy on this forum - but I think that 1500 CFM @9.6 inches static pressure using 2 hp is running over 100% static efficiency . . . so maybe they have mis-spec'd their unit in some way.


Like I said earlier, the approach is what I looked at. High volume vacuum systems will move more air at higher static pressures than a system designed for exhaust. Well designed vacuum blowers don't incorporate straight fins on the impeller.

Not sure about this - the Peerless for example is called a pressure blower but what leaves the exhaust has to come from somewhere; they could have called it a vacuum blower I suppose.


Blowers with straight fins work by creating a pressure difference between the two openings. . . .
Have a look at the impellers on the peerless systems. Then have a look at some designs on the major dust/chip handling systems.
Straight radial fins are kind of a middle compromise I think. You can go forward curved blades for high flow, low pressure or backward curved for high pressure low flow. But we want both - high pressure and high flow. Seems like a radial blade falls somewhat in the middle. Each type has certain advantages to efficiency, handling of particulates etc as well. In our case there are minimal solid particulates (no sawdust.) These wheels are usually cast (not sheetmetal like a furnace blower) and making a curved blade casting is really not more expensive than straight. The selection is based on what you want the blower to do. It's all tradeoffs.


The really good "blowers" will appear to work in reverse of the standard side fed(intake) blowers, being end fed and exhausting out the side as in many "cyclone" systems.

I haven't seen this type. Everything I have seen has the suction coincident with the center of rotation of the wheel. But I guess I have only looked at conventional centrifugal systems.

Still interested in what you come up with . . .

David Brasfield
06-03-2008, 6:27 PM
Not for me either - some of us are just hoping for a "Eureka" as a few members have struggled with exhaust problems in the past.

I want to ensure nobody breaks any laws of conservation of energy on this forum - but I think that 1500 CFM @9.6 inches static pressure using 2 hp is running over 100% static efficiency . . . so maybe they have mis-spec'd their unit in some way.

Yep, I figured around 1350 instead of 1500, but like I said, I don't take any manufacturer at their word :)


Not sure about this - the Peerless for example is called a pressure blower but what leaves the exhaust has to come from somewhere; they could have called it a vacuum blower I suppose.

I think that they aim at low restriction minimum negative pressure on the inlet side. That is a great approach to blow things, or even a good idea for large (mostly open) area exhaust systems. I have experience with some massive ones. The biggest one I ever dealt with was an exhaust system for a huge melted tar rectangular tank used in making roofing felt. As I recall, it was about 70 feet long and 10 or so feet wide.


Straight radial fins are kind of a middle compromise I think. You can go forward curved blades for high flow, low pressure or backward curved for high pressure low flow. But we want both - high pressure and high flow. Seems like a radial blade falls somewhat in the middle. Each type has certain advantages to efficiency, handling of particulates etc as well. In our case there are minimal solid particulates (no sawdust.) These wheels are usually cast (not sheetmetal like a furnace blower) and making a curved blade casting is really not more expensive than straight. The selection is based on what you want the blower to do. It's all tradeoffs.

I agree, again, my sense of things is in thinking of the laser enclosure as just that, instead of something like a ventilation hood. That makes my little mind want to treat it as an enclosed vessel that will experience lowered pressure when exhausted. Hence my proclivity toward using a system more geared toward vacuum, regardless of whether or not debris and particulates are involved. Higher static pressure differentials and higher flow.


I haven't seen this type. Everything I have seen has the suction coincident with the center of rotation of the wheel. But I guess I have only looked at conventional centrifugal systems.

Well, I have a link with some drawings of different systems and impeller designs, which I can't find right now (of course). I will get it to you.


Still interested in what you come up with . . .

Basicly, my "gamble" is simple. A vacuum specific "blower" simply because the exhaust side of the blower represents the least part of the problem since there are no filters, only ductwork induced restrictions (if any). Time will tell. I do know that I will solve the issue, and I won't go broke doing it :)

David

David Brasfield
06-03-2008, 8:44 PM
Hi, folks.

Still can't find my comparison links, but here are some picks of a Grizzly impeller and one from Oneida.

David

David Brasfield
06-06-2008, 4:59 PM
Hi, folks.

Still can't find my comparison links, but here are some picks of a Grizzly impeller and one from Oneida.

David

I have had the new blower for a couple of days, but just now unpacked it. It sure enough has a 2HP induction motor, and a nice steel impeller very similar to the Grizzly picture I posted (didn't really want to spend the bucks on an Oneida quality blower, even though I already own one).

It has a 6 inch inlet, but they were nice enough to provide a 4x4x6 inch "Y" that directly attaches to the inlet, so in the spirit of experimentation, I am going to leave my system temporarily choked down to 4 inches on the ports, and additionally choke down the exhaust side to 4 inches.

I am doing this in hopes of simulating Barb's dilemma, and seeing if this will help her out. I will vector cut some 1/2 - 3/4 inch material so that I can make lots of smoke.

I still have to wire up another 220 circuit, but I should get to that tomorrow. I will have pictures soon.

All the best,
David

David Brasfield
06-08-2008, 5:42 PM
Here are some photos of the new blower "choked" down to 4" so that I can follow through on the test for Barb. The intake is a "y" with 2, 4 inch openings, and I reduced the outlet to 4 inches as well. Notice the curved impeller through the opening. I can't believe I got the camera to focus down a 4 inch dark hole :)

Please forgive my taping job, I used as little as possible since I will change this back to a 6 inch system after some testing.

The blower is from a purchased dust collection system (that I didn't need), but the same blower cost $100 more without the accouterments. If anyone needs spare bags filter or parts, just holler.

I have also included a picture of the rep installed blower, and I will include a picture of the ducting behind the machine in the next message.

David

David Brasfield
06-08-2008, 5:57 PM
Here is a photo of the original 6 inch to 4 inch installation done by the rep. Like I said, I don't think he was trying to pull anything, just under informed. His knowledge of the machine and CorelDRAW was impressive. The only thing that gave him a bit of trouble was connecting the Epilog to the local network in the shop. That also turned out NOT to be his fault, but a bug in XP that doesn't like leading zeros in IP addresses, and will assign random numbers as a result. I caught that one.

Here is the photo, and a couple of part of the shop vacuum system, and one of my ShopBot getting ready for a new motherboard.

David

David Brasfield
06-08-2008, 11:57 PM
Hi, folks.

Back to testing for Barb's situation. I didn't get a chance to hook up both 4 inch input ports, so I gave the new blower the test from hell.

One 4 inch connection coming from the two 6 inch ports on the back of the Legend, choked down to 4 inches (see photos above), then combined in a "Tee" to a single 4 inch flexible aluminum hose, which I connected to the blower. I capped the other 4 inch input port on the blower. I then connected the output of the blower to some more flexible aluminum hose (also reduced to 4 inches) which finally makes it outside after a couple of turns.

When I first turned the blower on, it almost pulled the 4 inch input hose apart (tried to collapse). The output looked like one of those long circus balloons blown up very tightly, arched in the air. :)

The battery died in the camera, so I left it all hooked up until tomorrow so that I can take photos of the system off, then on. It is quite comical to see.

Even with it choked, it moved all the smoke out of the cabinet post-haste. There was never any slow drift of the smoke, it was always moving quickly toward the ports.

After I photo the system as is, I will change it to dual 4 inch inputs to emulate Barb's system, and run a few more tests. Even now, though, I can't imagine why this blower won't solve her problem. My total cost so far with shipping included (shipping was $60 because of the weight), $318 US. I had a couple of adapters and some hose on hand already. I did have to run a 220 VAC circuit for the blower, but I had everything I needed on hand as well, besides, the outlet is only about 10 feet from the panel.

The only thing I don't like is the mostly empty "sled" on casters since the rest of the intended dust system is missing. ;) Maybe I will make a mount when I get a chance.

All the best,
David

David Brasfield
06-09-2008, 8:44 PM
All connections 4 inch.

1) Blower OFF, "tee" and hoses relaxed.
2) Blower ON, "tee" and hoses not so relaxed.
3) Blower OFF, hose to blower relaxed.
4) Blower ON, hose drawn up like a really cold day.
5) Blower ON, cartoonish flexible exhaust duct.

I am off for dual 4 inch tests. I will cut some 1/2 inch baltic birch and see how it works. I will post photos when done. That will be the last of my experiments before I convert the system to all 6 inch (as spec'd).

David

David Brasfield
06-09-2008, 11:10 PM
I setup dual 4 inch ports on the Legend fed into a blower with the exhaust reduced to 4 inches.

All of the cuts through the 1/2 inch baltic birth went without a hitch. I cut two sets of letters, the second set I basically "cooked" for maximum production of smoke.

So, it is possible to exhaust a 120 watt Legend EXT using only 4 inch ductwork, but only practical if done correctly.

As soon as all of the odd pieces I didn't have on hand for the 6 inch setup arrive, I will finish the job to factory specs.

I hope this has helped someone, especially Barb. Feel free to ask me any questions publicly or privately and I will tell you what I know (probably not much). :)

Pictures are as follows:

1) Blower exhaust at rest (unhappy clown).
2) A shot of the temporary dual 4 inch setup from the blower side.
3) A shot of the setup opposite the blower.
4) The original "bad idea piece removed", sans the Mickey Mouse blower shown previously, and the 6 inch to 4 inch adapters still taped to the machine.

David

Scott Challoner
06-10-2008, 10:01 AM
David

I think the lengths you have gone to help another creeker are admirable.
Just wanted to say that.

Also... A 120 watt laser and a ShopBot?! Can I come work for you? :D

Regards

David Brasfield
06-10-2008, 10:46 AM
David

I think the lengths you have gone to help another creeker are admirable.
Just wanted to say that.

Also... A 120 watt laser and a ShopBot?! Can I come work for you? :D

Regards

Thanks. I have had lots of help over the years from kind people, I just try to pay it some of it back.

I wish you would come work for me. More stuff than the wife and I can handle right now. Good problem to have :)

David

Jeanette Brewer
06-10-2008, 12:15 PM
Thanks. I have had lots of help over the years from kind people, I just try to pay it some of it back.


I love your attitude!

I don't mean to hijack your thread but I have to tell you about a friend we have in Hawaii...

Four years ago, this gentleman called (at that time, he lived in Washington) and asked if he could swing by our showroom during a layover he had in Dallas; he wanted to stop by and get our advice on starting his laser engraving business.

He said, "I know I'm not in your territory and you can't sell me anything [we're an engraving equipment distributor] but if you'll spend some time with me re: my new business, I promise to 'pay it forward'".

Of course, we told him to come on by! Shortly, thereafter, we saw him logging on & answering questions on industry discussion boards; we saw him join ARA [industry association] & volunteer his time; we saw him, time after time, offer his cell number to anyone who needed to call for help &/or advice.

It's been fun watching him live up to his "pay it forward" promise and I appreciate the fact that you're doing the same thing!

Keep up the good work!

Richard Rumancik
06-10-2008, 5:51 PM
Hi David

Glad to hear that you got this blower to work for you. Can you supply the manufacturer, part number etc? Do you know the wheel diameter offhand?

I'm still trying to get a handle on this. I suppose the "easy answer" to Barb is to do what you did, but I'm not quite satisfied giving her this answer until/unless we can identify WHAT exactly is wrong with her system. She has invested quite a bit to mount, install and wire a blower on her roof. If I were Barb, I'd want to keep it up there if I could. It is not unusual at all to mount industrial blowers and exhaust systems on the roof. Do you think there is any significant loss from the elevation difference?

We need to compare the specs on your system to hers to determine why hers is inadequate. Maybe she can challenge Peerless to determine if there are any alternatives in her case.

David Brasfield
06-10-2008, 7:44 PM
Hi David

Glad to hear that you got this blower to work for you. Can you supply the manufacturer, part number etc? Do you know the wheel diameter offhand?

I'm still trying to get a handle on this. I suppose the "easy answer" to Barb is to do what you did, but I'm not quite satisfied giving her this answer until/unless we can identify WHAT exactly is wrong with her system. She has invested quite a bit to mount, install and wire a blower on her roof. If I were Barb, I'd want to keep it up there if I could. It is not unusual at all to mount industrial blowers and exhaust systems on the roof. Do you think there is any significant loss from the elevation difference?

We need to compare the specs on your system to hers to determine why hers is inadequate. Maybe she can challenge Peerless to determine if there are any alternatives in her case.

I wouldn't dare tell her that my experience will fix her issues. I do know that it fixed mine, even with it all choked down.

My (somewhat educated) guess at her issue is the inability of her blower to handle the negative pressure end of things. A vacuum blower has to work efficiently as possible at both ends of the blower. It needs to move a lot of intake air, as well as overcoming high static pressures from filters at the output side. It simply seems to me, that she needs a blower, that "sucks", better. :) One that handles negative pressures better while maintaining a decent flow.

I simply bought a blower designed to suck. It has curved impellers, it is cheap as it made in China. It is quiet, as long as you pad the mostly empty platform on coasters, which I will take off and sit it on foam.

What I ordered was a PennState Industry DC2000B. It came with bags, and wheels and a 50' section of plastic 4 inch hose (which I never received), and a 4"X4"X6" "Y" that attached directly to the blower intake (will be removed soon). The impeller is 12 inch and about 5 inches deep (a guess).

It would help me confidence wise on her behalf, to simply know how she has her system "plumbed". I do know that she will need at least a 5" exhaust, and 2, 4" ducts directly to the motor for maximum effect.

She could also look at my pictures and do a temporary setup to test with, add a simple exhaust through existing ductwork to the blower on the roof (with the roof blower NOT energized).

She will need 2 lines into the blower, and a decent sized line out. If that presents too much trouble, then a conversion at the back of the cabinet from 4" to 6" with a "Y", NOT a "Tee", then 6" to the blower should work.

If she is exhausting her current system from the cabinet to the blower on the roof with a single 4 inch duct, then she has work to do regardless.

All the best,
David

David Brasfield
06-10-2008, 7:57 PM
One additional issue. If she is going to contact Peerless, ask them where they took the static pressure vs. CFM measurements. If it represents a differential, then their numbers are mostly useless as well.

Ask them how much vacuum they can pull at 6" static pressure and 800 CFM airflow. I doubt they can attain 6" of pressure at 800 CFM, probably more like 3" at 320 CFM. Just a rough calc in my head.

If you have a really big exhaust system in a tightly closed building, then you have to figure for the additional affects of negative pressure. Basically, you need about 1 square foot of open (to the outside) space for incoming air per 500cfm (rule of thumb). Usually, it isn't an issue as most shops leak air like a sieve. Small tight places are an issue with higher CFM flows, and can especially be dangerous with items such as gas fired water heaters and oil fired boilers.

Every shop should have a good carbon monoxide (CO) sensor (designed quite a few of those over the years). A smoke detector is NOT good enough.

Off my soapbox now :)
David

Barb Macdonald
06-10-2008, 8:13 PM
and burst into tears.
Sorry, bad week, little tornado scared the **** out of me, on the weekend. Nothing like what the Plains get, but scary enough, thank you:)
I'm at home, I'll respond at my usual over-length once I'm less hungry, and more coherent. Thanks so much, David.
I've been lurking a bit, waiting for your pictures. "Eureka!!!!" etc. doesn't even begin to describe the elation.
Gosh, I'm tired.
Thanks, again. Words don't cover it, at all. Wow.
The Creek rules.
All of you.
Can i give y'all a group hug, virtually, cause I gotta go, and I feel like I should keep rattling on, but oops, there goes the blood sugar.
all the best
sheesh:o
B

Richard Rumancik
06-10-2008, 9:13 PM
Hi Barb

Glad to hear you escaped the bad weather.

Can you refresh my memory? If I recall, Epilog changed your front grille to help improve flow. You said you thought it might have helped, but it was not the answer . . . But you still have the original rear cover with two 4" duct attachments, correct? I wonder if it is possible to change the rear cover to the two x 6" version. Peck, if you are following this, can you comment? Did they make some changes internally that would prohibit it? I'm wondering if it isn't something that should be looked at further. Even if it isn't a "perfect" match with the internals, or if it would need a little rework to fit it, maybe it would help . . .

I'm looking at David's blower and trying to compare - but it is a bit complicated so may take a bit of time. In case you are interested it is at
www.pennstateind.com/store/DC2000B.html (http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DC2000B.html)

But I suggest you sit tight for a while longer and don't do anything rash until we look at it a bit more.

Richard Rumancik
06-10-2008, 9:17 PM
. . . Thanks so much, David.
I've been lurking a bit, waiting for your pictures. "Eureka!!!!" etc. doesn't even begin to describe the elation.

David, I hope you realize that Barb is probably going to ask you to marry her . . . just warning you . . .

David Brasfield
06-13-2008, 9:29 AM
Thanks for the reply, Rodne.

I was working on a simple project last night, using the features you mentioned (correctly, I thought), making parts for a box with finger joints. When it came time to join all the objects, there was misalignment between the squares (fingers) and the rectangle (box side), even though all positions and sizes were done with 1/1000 precision. I finally found part of the issue by zooming until I could see that the vectors didn't match.

I manually matched the lines, and never got the vectors combined enough to remove the unwanted portions of the squares. Weld didn't help as it simply removed square objects from inside the rectangle (and other strange things).

For what it is worth, the first project I did with X3 involved doing a trace of a bitmap, cleaning it up, then doing a simple vector cut. I kept sending the job to the laser, and it would do nothing other than beep and display "Done". I finally rebooted windows, opened Corel and the same file, hit print and it worked perfectly. Is it possible I am aggravating a known issue with X3?

Just thinking out loud...

David

I had a similar experience again last night. I spent about 4 hours on it, before I realized that I had violated my own golden rule, which is "most mysteries have simple solutions".

I had a line that was raster size that would cut every time I would test the design on some scrap. I would open the file, look at the segment, and sure enough, it would be the wrong size. I would fix it, send it back to the laser, and a different line that had previously not vectored, would cut through. Again, I opened the file, and it had been changed. I fixed it, and back to the laser again. This time the original line, had once again, changed back to a vector size.

I am ashamed to admit that I engaged in this loop 6 times before I realized what what wrong.

I rebooted windows, loaded the last saved file. All the lines were the right size, and the design came out as intended.

Too many years working with unix, folks. Then I starting buying Macs when they went BSD based, and I have been ruined away from anything "Gates" for any reason jut shy of brute force.

Evidently I am a bit late on the windows/corel learning curve, but I don't think that I will forget this lesson. If it starts doing weird crap, do NOT assume you are doing anything wrong until you have rebooted.

David

Barb Macdonald
06-19-2008, 2:06 PM
Hi David B, and Richard R., and everybody else:)

I've forwarded all the learned comments and pictures from this thread to my guy that installed the second blower. Richard is, as always, correct on the specs for the darned thing. I think that because we have a "T" joint, instead of a "Y", this is making a difference. That there is also a separate "suck" on each port in your set-up is also the way to go. We have two 4" ducts, coming out of the back of the machine, joined by a T, and then out to the roof.
I have also shown the pictures to my guy in the shop, and once we've got some time, we'll be working on how to put this stupid problem to rest. It's a big issue for Abigail, as it slows down my production time. For example, I just did some rastered/vector-cut magnets, boy are they dirty, and I know I'll need to be cleaning again, before long...
And, as I've said before, I do not mind doing the maintenance on machines at all, I just know that I'm getting too much debris/smoke etc. build-up, DUE to inadequate suckage.

(quoting from post by rr) But you still have the original rear cover with two 4" duct attachments, correct? I wonder if it is possible to change the rear cover to the two x 6" version.
The answer to the above is "Yes". And no, heard nothing from Peck.

David, and Richard, I can't thank you enough, (can you tell?), for the thought and work you've put into fixing this problem, I wish there was some way to thank you, without resorting to marriage:)
Your Barb might have something to say about THAT:)

(Sorry, Richard was there first, anyway)

And I do apologize for my previous gosh-it-sounds-so-silly-now post, I was sooo tired that day, couldn't even think straight, and I did want to go out and cry, but my dogs, as always, cheered me right up. The storms have been downing power lines and hydro poles, and I'm still cleaning up all the mess mother nature left. Feel lucky to be alive though.
We were really lucky at the shop, we did have a power outage, but it knocked out the phones only. (And it also annoyed my Windows 95 computer, the one that runs Xenetech, I forgot to unplug it, haven't seen "safe mode" for a long time) Whew! I'm glad my paranoia paid off, I unplugged everything (but the phone battery back-up, which of course, didn't last long enough) before the storm hit. I was in a bad storm once, where all the hair on my person stood straight up. Weird feeling, let me tell ya! My husband says I'm electrical, I shock others real easy:) That, however, is another story:)
I wear hematite necklaces and bracelets for my arthritis, and they were tingling during the last big storm. EEEK, took them off real quick!!

Anyway, without further ado, thanks for all your help.
If you need anything from Toronto, give me a shout, and I'll be glad to help ya any way I can:)
Trouble is, it's hard to be helpful with you guys, my puny little B.Sc. is no match for you genius engineer types:)

Thank goodness you're there, is all I can say.
Have I run on enough yet??
Hope I made some sense.

all the best
THE CREEK RULES
please contribute, best $$ I ever spent.
back to work
Barb

David Brasfield
06-19-2008, 5:08 PM
Hi, Barb!

I am short on time, but I will get you some pictures of my finished job in the next day or two when I have finished the output side of the blower.

I have finished the intact side of the blower with the 6 inch ducts, and even with the output restricted on the blower, the doors on the laser cabinet are noticeably resistant to opening with the blower running.

Since adding just the 6 inch intake to the blower from the laser cabinet, the blower is making at least 20% less noise, and it is no louder than the Epilog powered up and not doing anything. Total noise between the two now allows for normal conversational voice levels.

I will be glad to get the output side finished as it is embarrassing to watch right now. There was a shipping mistake and I was sent 7 inch industrial flexible pipe (big $$), so the right pipe just now arrived, so I have been unable to finish the job. What is embarrassing is watching the semi-flexible 4 inch pipe (my temporary installation) "dance" outside the building. The air pressure is just too much for it :-) Imagine an hose pipe with a sprayer on it and full pressure. Maybe I should get video.

:)

David

Roy Nicholson
06-19-2008, 9:15 PM
It would be worthwhile signing up for the free Corel Draw Pro Magazine which is emailed out to you monthly There is also Corel Unleashed which is another free Mgazine.

I find Corel Draw Pro the better for my use...
It covers Corel Draw... Laaser Engraving...Dye Sublimation and Screen printing with very good articles straight from the industry.

You'll find it here Corel Draw Pro (http://www.coreldrawpro.com/)

They say it's The Entrepreneurial Magazine For CorelDRAW Users


The Library of back issues is at Library (http://www.coreldrawpro.com/library/CP-1006.pdf)
to access other issues...just change the date to 106 January 1206 December 907 Sept 07

Some Tutorials
http://www.allgraphicdesign.com/corel.html (http://www.allgraphicdesign.com/corel.html)

http://www.sketchpad.net/corel.htm (http://www.sketchpad.net/corel.htm)

http://www.geocities.com/corelbyexamples/tutorials.htm (http://www.geocities.com/corelbyexamples/tutorials.htm)

http://www.webreference.com/graphics/corel101/ (http://www.webreference.com/graphics/corel101/)

http://www.grafx-design.com/08corel.html (http://www.grafx-design.com/08corel.html)


Hope they help...I have a few Tutoriasl DVD's but with copyright etc ...

If you have any specific thing you want to work with email me and I'll see what I can dig up.

I find the Corel Forum very helpful as well
http://coreldraw.com/forums/

Regards

Roy N.

David Brasfield
07-16-2008, 10:11 AM
Thanks for the suggestions, Roy. I will get myself subscribed asap.

Peck, I have a suggestion for Epilog.

I now have had a few weeks run time with my upgraded exhaust system. It moves a tremendous amount of air, but I do see pockets of turbulent but stagnant air, especially around the corners of the larger sheets that we cut (usually 30 x 24).

We have to make sure and mask the bottom of the product as there is significant marking from the smoke trapped in the cells of the vector table. No matter how much air I put across it, basic physics will tell you that it is hard to move air from an enclosed space (the cells closed off on one side by the material being processed) by moving air across the space at right angles.

I am not suggesting a design flaw, but I do have an inexpensive potential fix for the issue.

Since the vector tray provides essentially no vacuum hold down, simply put something like an 8" muffin fan blowing straight up in the bottom of the tray cavity. Give it legs by using short standoffs, and power it from the rotary attachment plug. That makes it removable when not vector cutting. There is no reason to have to mount it in the bottom of the tray. This could be engineered in an hour by one of your guys with materials on hand.

Please consider this. It won't do away with all the trapped smoke, but it will certainly deal with a lot of it, even if it does nothing more than create turbulence underneath the vector grid.

If Epilog is unwilling to do this, then would it be possible for Epilog to provide me with the pinout for the rotary plug (assuming it normally has power available) and let me add a fan without voiding my warranty?

If Epilog really likes the idea, then alteration of the firmware could possibly make control of the fan available at the laser for those that cut very light materials on the vector table.

Thanks for your consideration.
David

Barb Macdonald
07-17-2008, 8:26 PM
Am I wasting my time if I put a fan in front of the machine, I wonder.. Nah, probably won't help.
Cash flow/time constraints are precluding the required modifications to Abigail. She's been working fine. I hope I haven't jinxed myself:)
She has been a little creaky in the x-axis on boot-up, sound wise, but nothing too frightening. Time for another clean. I bought some ever-clear alcohol, funny why I will go into a liquor store, (I don't much) after sniffing the lens cleaner supplied by epilog. I have a very good sniffer, thanks dad. (Size can matter:p)
I've been customizing some boxes, and even though it's a much thicker material, (I'm doing the boxes assembled already) therefore the ports are more open, the smoke will still hang up. I've found keeping stuff in the middle of the table is the safer/cleaner option, as the smoke is at least between the ports.
I wonder......
How would you stop the laser from lasering the fan? Duh:o

It would have to be under the table bed, wouldn't it? Just blowing air around?

We're having a heat wave, yippee!

all the best to all

barb
epilog legend ext 60 watt "Abigail", why haven't I edited my darn sig yet??
lots of sign making stuff!

David Brasfield
07-17-2008, 11:22 PM
Hi, Barb.

You're right on the fan. I did some measuring and there isn't room and I forgot about the cross supports.

Bad idea on the fan. I still like the sliding port on the side idea though.

David

Barb Macdonald
07-24-2008, 9:39 AM
If you haven't owned your EXT for too long, talk to your rep and see what he can do in regards to a credit or a refund. Epilog has a recommended flow rating and a drawing of the ideal exhaust system in the manual. There's just so many routes you can go. It's just a matter of what you're willing to spend.

With that being said, your new exhaust system should do the trick. Keep the plumbing as straight and short as possible.

The stronger the exhaust the more smoke will be removed and the better the vacuum suction will work. If the material you're using doesn't cover the entire bed, cover the rest using scrap wood, plastic, aluminum etc.

I keep waiting for a response from Peck?
It won't happen. I've been "swept under the table", which is a reason I wanted this thread kept alive...
Still waiting on a good customer for some badly needed cash flowings. It still "gets my goat", looking at the epilog specs for exhaust I was given. Silly woman, never believe everything you read.

Hey, on a positive note, it's supposed to stop raining tomorrow:)
My darn roof's leaking, thought my puppy had broken her house-training, but it was water dripping through the light fixture, onto her bed. Uh-oh!

Have a great day:)
barb

Scott Shepherd
07-24-2008, 9:58 AM
Barb, I feel for you, I do. If they won't respond, take it to the next level. Peck does a great job, but he's not in tech support any more. I believe he's said before that he doesn't officially offer tech support, and you should always go through the factory tech's.

If you can't get an answer, take it to the next level. You have a very valid case. Assuming the facts stated are correct, you installed a system as per their recommendations, and it's not working. Call the Better Business Bureau in Denver.

Here's the contact info :

Denver | Boulder
1020 Cherokee Street
Denver, CO 80204
Phone 303.758.8200
FAX 303.577.8101
www.denver.bbb.org (http://www.denver.bbb.org/)
info@denver.bbb.org


Epilog constantly gets awards for being an great company in that area. Fill a claim with the BBB and start getting their attention. If that doesn't work, have a lawyer draw up a letter and send it.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. I cannot understand why they let issues like this continue. They apparently have fixed the issue in the newer model. Send you a new model, take yours back. What's it going to cost them in the end, when it's all said and done, and your old machine is resold to someone? $5,000? Probably not that much. $5,000 to resolve an issue, keep their record clean, and eliminate posts like this coming to the top of search engines when people search for their products.


That $5000, or $10,000 if that much will be lost many many times over. What they don't see is all the behind the scenes communications when people are considering buying a laser. If you can change the mind of 1 person from buying their machine, then they have lost that $5000 already.


Best to pony up, get the issue resolved, and not have that happen. They could have you as a cheerleader for their company, telling people how they made it right for you. Instead, you're forced to go on the internet and beg for help. I really do not understand the logic, other than they possibly know there are 100's of machines out there with the same problem, and if they give you a fix, they will have to offer it up to the 100's of others. If that's the case, then shame on them for knowing about the issue and not offering a solution.


Come on Epilog, step up and fix Barb's machine, which has been a problem for WAYYYYYY too long as we have all watched.

Richard Rumancik
07-24-2008, 12:25 PM
Barb, I had intended some time ago to offer a bit of an "analysis" of your blower vs the one David was using but haven't been able to find some time - one of these days I hope . . .

In the meantime please clarify something. Did Epilog give you a new front grille for your machine?

Also, what do you have on the back? Do you have the original intake panel with the two 4" inlets or the newer one with two 6" inlets?

Richard

Barb Macdonald
07-24-2008, 1:17 PM
Did Epilog give you a new front grille for your machine? Yes

Also, what do you have on the back? Do you have the original intake panel with the two 4" inlets Yes or the newer one with two 6" inlets NO!
I did go out and buy a 6" Y to 2 4", but haven't installed 'em yet.

Thanks Scott, problem with those great ideas is the time & $$$$$ factor. I do indeed have a good case, massive paper trail, etc. Calling my lawyer is always expensive, as you all know.
I hate causing problems.... But then, I am not the problem, am I??

The new front grill helps, minimally. I did mention to Peck that it seemed improved, but hard to tell how much it was helping. Really, not much difference, as the smoke hangs up for mostly everything.
Peck had told me not to call other contractors, until my issue was resolved. I wish I had ignored that advice, as the cash flow was good a few months ago, I could have afforded some help/new suckage then.
I appreciate your responses, as you guys know, very much.
Oops, gotta go!
Work coming in, yippee!!

Thanks again Guys, for your words of support. They mean a lot to me.

have a great day:)

Barb

Scott Shepherd
07-24-2008, 1:24 PM
Barb, the BBB is free, just need to file the complaint. I went through this same thing with them, they wouldn't fix my machine, so I know how you feel.

File a claim with the BBB and get it on record.

Takes about 10-15 minutes and it's all done online. They say they will contact the company within 2 days, and they are given 14 days to reply, with 70% of all cases being resolved, and being resolved in 30 days or less.

Here's the link : https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/GetStarted.aspx

James Stokes
07-24-2008, 3:55 PM
Hey Barb. Do you still have the old grill to your machine? What you might do is take it and and punch a 2 inch hole on the side with the worst exaust. Then take a shop vac with the hose hooked up to the blower and hook that up to it. Put it back on and see if it works.

Barb Macdonald
07-25-2008, 3:59 PM
Thanks Scott, even though I'm in Canada? BBB will work?
James, thanks for the idea, trouble is, the worst exhaust is everywhere. I'm not quite ready to punch holes in things, but it's not a bad idea...Just increases the noice factor....
have a great weekend:)
Barb.

Scott Shepherd
07-25-2008, 4:39 PM
Yes, there's even a time in the process where it asks if you are in Canada or USA. Doesn't matter where you are, it's where they are.

BBB complaints are taken VERY seriously by businesses and they act as a third party when things are deadlocked. They offer a great service to consumers and it's free. I wouldn't think twice about it.

Richard Rumancik
07-26-2008, 11:26 AM
Richard asked:
. . . what do you have on the back? Do you have the original intake panel with the two 4" inlets Yes or the newer one with two 6" inlets NO!

The new front grill helps, minimally. I did mention to Peck that it seemed improved, but hard to tell how much it was helping. Really, not much difference, as the smoke hangs up for mostly everything.

Okay, you have a new front grille that didn't help much. David has the panel on the back with the two 6" exhaust ports and you have two 4". Is there any reason that Epilog did not give you the exhaust panel as well? Is it conditional on other machine mods?

David seems to be getting better results than you are and I don't think it is just the blower. Several weeks ago I looked at the specs on your blower vs David's and I am not convinced that your blower is the cause of the problem. Unfortunately I did not get a chance to write anything down but I will try . . .

I am thinking it may be related to the exhaust ports as this is the main difference between your system and David's, apart from the blower.

Simply using an adapter to convert to 6" is not the same thing. I suggest that you see if Epilog can give you a new rear panel with the 6" ports.

Peck Sidara
07-26-2008, 1:42 PM
Dear fellow creekers:

I've just returned from international business travel. Unfortunately I did not have access to my emails over the last 10 days or so.

Coming back to a very full inbox and am quite disturbed where this thread is heading on Epilog/exhaust/lack of response/BBB/contact lawyer/pony up or pay the consequences talk.

I will be reviewing my notes/postings in this tread and will discuss with management upon my return to the office on Monday.

Sorry David. Received your response & PM on suggestions but haven't had a chance to respond yet. Will do shortly.

Be back shortly.

David Brasfield
07-26-2008, 4:03 PM
Hi, Peck.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time.

For me, the biggest issue is that the tray with the long focal point and air assist tube, and cutting material of any thickness, simply doesn't line up with the ports between the tray exhaust ports and the -inside cabinet- ports, making items that are vector cut less well ventilated, allowing the smoke to accumulate in the tray under the material being cut. The larger the sheet, the greater the smoke accumulation under the material being cut. I have solved the problem by judicious masking of the bottom of the material being cut.

The ventilation otherwise (speaking for myself) is very adequate for engraving or cutting thin materials.

My suggestions were intended to try to help, not threats.

I think that a sliding (inside cabinet) port that slides up and down matching the ports on the tray at whatever position it happened to be, would solve most of the issues with smoke accumulation. In my installation with the amount of ventilation I have, I wish I could simply remove the black rectangular covers that have the single port holes, altogether. I think that would exhaust my tray just fine and leave plenty of flow for engraving/rastering. I am going to go and have another good look at the design and make sure that I am not speaking out of turn.

All the best,
David

Scott Shepherd
07-26-2008, 7:53 PM
Coming back to a very full inbox and am quite disturbed where this thread is heading on Epilog/exhaust/lack of response/BBB/contact lawyer/pony up or pay the consequences talk.



Now you know how your customers feel when they are ignored when they have legitimate problems with your equipment. I hope you are able to get it resolved Peck. It's just no sense in having problems like this stay open for so long. No sense in it. A company with Epilog's reputation should be able to nip these in the bud.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (and again)- In my opinion, Epilog has an excellent tech support team. Excellent. However, when issues can't be solved by tech support and are elevated to Engineering (or whoever is next in line), the sense of importance and urgency doesn't transfer over from tech support's great service.

David Brasfield
07-26-2008, 10:02 PM
Hi, Peck.

.... I am going to go and have another good look at the design and make sure that I am not speaking out of turn.

All the best,
David

Replying to myself. I had a good look at the tray/vector cutting grid combo, and with the long focal length on my machine, the ventilation ports on the tray are completely blocked when I am cutting or etching anything/everything. Unless I were to move to a short focal length lens, the tray will never be in a position to be ventilated (matching the intra-cabinet ports).

The only ventilation of the tray occurs due to pressure from the air-assist when cutting, and the differential pressures created from air moving across the top of the cutting table.

Thanks for your consideration.
David

Barb Macdonald
07-29-2008, 1:51 PM
Yes, it's true. I have had an inordinate amount of problems, getting the proper exhaust going on my epilog legend ext 60 watt. It is a fine machine. It came with specs for exhaust, that were woefully inadequate. As my sales rep. refused to help with that portion of the installation process, I did it myself. Big mistake. I used the specs I was given by Epilog. They were NOT enough. I have asked you, Peck, if Epilog could help with the cost of what else is required to get the exhaust, at least exhausting enough so that smoke doesn't hang in the machine. I have been refused. I don't think the cost of a second blower, as in what David Brasfield suggests, would be a huge expenditure for Epilog. I think a second blower, as David suggests, behind Abigail, in addition to the one on the roof, would help immensely. I can't afford it. I shouldn't have to afford it. I could handle the contractor installation dollar portion. I do have a good, intelligent contractor, he followed the specs I was GIVEN.
My frustration comes from these simple facts. I can supply you with the documentation (supplied by Epilog) that I sent to my (two) contractors. I can supply you with all the costs I incurred, in order to get the exhaust up and running. The costs incurred due to inadequate exhaust are harder to tally. I had several problems with the machine through the first 12 months, and many were traced to dirt build-up on the encoder. Subsequent issues have also been dirt-based:)
Check my previous threads, I don't make this stuff up:)
Most of the work I do currently is with the laserable plastics. Thin material that is not held down at all by the exhaust, you can cover up the table all you want, no difference. Graphics of any size clearly have smoke hanging. As I mentioned, I've also been lasering some card stock, and the smoke just hangs there, around the laser head, dropping particulate matter all over the head, and lenses, and rails, and etc.
I am very fortunate that I have a good sign-making business with machines that are still working, and are bought and paid for. (I do love my Xenetech rotaries! Dear old things!)

I am not asking for much, Peck.
Please, reconsider your position?

Thanks to all you creekers, the Creek is the best thing I've ever found on the web:)

have a great day!

barb

Peck Sidara
07-29-2008, 3:27 PM
Hi, Peck.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time.

For me, the biggest issue is that the tray with the long focal point and air assist tube, and cutting material of any thickness, simply doesn't line up with the ports between the tray exhaust ports and the -inside cabinet- ports, making items that are vector cut less well ventilated, allowing the smoke to accumulate in the tray under the material being cut. The larger the sheet, the greater the smoke accumulation under the material being cut. I have solved the problem by judicious masking of the bottom of the material being cut.

The ventilation otherwise (speaking for myself) is very adequate for engraving or cutting thin materials.

My suggestions were intended to try to help, not threats.

I think that a sliding (inside cabinet) port that slides up and down matching the ports on the tray at whatever position it happened to be, would solve most of the issues with smoke accumulation. In my installation with the amount of ventilation I have, I wish I could simply remove the black rectangular covers that have the single port holes, altogether. I think that would exhaust my tray just fine and leave plenty of flow for engraving/rastering. I am going to go and have another good look at the design and make sure that I am not speaking out of turn.

All the best,
David

David,

I think you've done a great job with sharing your experiences/ideas and execution regarding exhausting to all of the fellow creekers. Never did I ever think your suggestions or comments were threatening. I will send a PM regarding your suggestion.

To all members of the creek:

Barbs case has been presented to management. Once a decision has been made on how this will be handled, it will be addressed to Barb and not publicly posted on the forum. If Barb wants to share the information, that's entirely up to her.

Richard Rumancik
07-29-2008, 4:29 PM
. . . I think a second blower, as David suggests, behind Abigail, in addition to the one on the roof, would help immensely.

Barb - did David suggest a second blower in series? I looked for what he said and didn't find it. Or were you just thinking yourself of puting the two blowers in series?

In either case, I would proceed with multiple blowers (series or parallel) very carefully. Blowers and fans don't "add" linearly, and even though it is possible to engineer a system with series fans, it is not a simple problem. You might be lucky and it may appear to work, but it is not be my first choice of an approach.

Don't know what Epilog will come up with, but it still seems to me that you need a new rear panel with 6" ports as a first approach.

Barb Macdonald
07-29-2008, 5:38 PM
Well, I don't hear that well:)
Agreed. I know not what I'm doing. I made that part up. But it does make sense (to me anyway) to have some stronger suckage, right behind the darn thing. If the one on the roof can get some added help, would that be a bad thing? I do understand what you mean though...
I don't think I can retrofit to 6" ports, at least not aware that I could...
I keep thinking of my friend's 18x24 machine, that exhausted really well, and actually held pieces down. I do understand that a big exhaust would be needed for Abigail to be able to do that.
Have a good one:)
Barb

Richard Rumancik
07-29-2008, 11:24 PM
Barb, blowers can be used in series but it is not easily predictable as to what your result will be. If you use two identical blowers, the pressure would double but the maximum flow at zero pressure would be the same as for a single blower.

The amount of actual improvement in flow you could get would depend on the system impedance (resistance to flow from laser box, ducts, tubing, elbows etc.) I would expect an improvement much less than a doubling of flow.

I suppose you can't hurt anything if you want to try it.

You said that you did not think the rear panel was replaceable for the 6" port version. Does your laser look like the photo below?

David, what do you think? Are the 6" ports integral (welded) to the machine frame? Or can the whole rear section be disassembled?

David Brasfield
07-30-2008, 7:54 AM
Barb, blowers can be used in series but it is not easily predictable as to what your result will be. If you use two identical blowers, the pressure would double but the maximum flow at zero pressure would be the same as for a single blower.

The amount of actual improvement in flow you could get would depend on the system impedance (resistance to flow from laser box, ducts, tubing, elbows etc.) I would expect an improvement much less than a doubling of flow.

I suppose you can't hurt anything if you want to try it.

You said that you did not think the rear panel was replaceable for the 6" port version. Does your laser look like the photo below?

David, what do you think? Are the 6" ports integral (welded) to the machine frame? Or can the whole rear section be disassembled?

I would have to have a look and see. The ports are removable, but that is to facilitate fitting the cabinet through a 36" door (at least that is how it appears to me). As for a retrofit, I do not know, but I will look.

On the issue of dual blowers, the only thing I ever suggested was utilization of the existing exhaust as an "after blower" exhaust, with the second blower as nothing more that an exhaust port (not energized). That was assuming a 5 or 6" exhaust from the cabinet to the existing blower.

All I can make claim to is that the system I designed, even when it was choked down to 4 inches, worked (sans my tray ventilation issue). In its final rendition as a full blown 6" inch system, it will empty the 2,100 sq. ft. shop of most of the cold air in short order :-) We don't run it between 2:30 pm and 5:30 pm simply because the temperature in the shop rises to uncomfortable levels if we do. We usually shut down the laser when the shop reaches 82-84 degrees. We have plenty of other work to do in the mean time.

Hope that helps,
David

Barb Macdonald
07-30-2008, 10:40 AM
The back of Abigail doesn't look like that picture, RR.
The ports are 21" from the bottom of the cabinet, 13" from the top.
Not down low, like your picture. I am awaiting a reply by PM from Peck.
David, I think you've done a great job with your set-up.
I think, in my case, having the second exhaust right at the machine, might just do the trick. Anything would be an improvement, at this point.
Fiscal year end is upon me, time to go bury myself in paperwork:(
Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas, you are a great bunch of geniuses!
all the best!!

Barb

Richard Rumancik
07-30-2008, 12:20 PM
Okay, Peck could find out for sure if it is possible or not. David, maybe wait to see what Epilog says before spending time looking at it.

Maybe Epilog's solution for Barb will be something totally different which could make this moot.

David, although you feel your blower did okay with 4" ducting, I was trying to see if there was something fairly simple that might give Barb just a bit more margin that would make her system work with her current blower. Obviously, choking the airflow to 4" right at the laser can't be a good thing when this laser needs such a large flow. (The Epilog engineers decided at some point that two x 4" ducts were not adequate.) But if the air system is integral with the cabinet then this won't fly.

I know you are anxious to get something working but it will definitely create additional noise to have a blower close to the laser. Personally I wouldn't want that but maybe you can deal with it somehow by putting it just outside your laser room.

I tried to find a pic on the Internet for an EXT but found nothing on the Epilog site. I assume the picture I posted is for an older model.

Dan Hintz
07-30-2008, 2:53 PM
I don't want to go back through 7 pages of posts to find the answer, so I'll just ask... Barb, where is the air entrance for the table? Are there holes all over the cabinet (sides, top, bottom, etc.) or are the strictly on the front? If they're all over the place, you're not going to get a good flow over the table, and stagnation points are going to be a guarantee.



As a little sidetrack, I recall a friend selling his car several years ago due to poor performance. He picked it up used, and the prior owner had added a fairly wide range of aftermarket components to the vehicle. Even so, performance was significantly less than even a stock vehicle. He spent months trying to determine the root cause, but in the end decided to return the car to stock, sell off the aftermarket parts and the car separately and start fresh, taking a financial bath in the process.

He had a buyer for the car, and most of the aftermarket parts had already been removed by the time this story occurs. As we were removing one of the last pieces of aftermarket equipment (a cold air intake), we noticed that the pipe leading to the filter was much longer than anticipated. Long story short, the prior owner didn't cut the pipe to length, and the internal shape of the filter combined with the amount of piping shoved into it was essentially cutting off airflow. Airflow was enough for the car to run at idle and low speeds, but any driving with a lead foot had the car starving for air. All of his troubles and financial loss could have been avoided had a pipe been cut back 6".

Mark Winlund
07-30-2008, 4:48 PM
I'm not sure that I agree that Epilog should pay for another blower. Perhaps an exchange machine. I do know that these problems are solvable. ULS's machine is designed to evacuate through the cutting table as well as across the top of it. I have used strips of sheet magnetic material to adjust the airflow according to the job. Not every item that is engraved will have ideal airflow. Some times you just have to clean the optics more frequently.

The blower for mine is a 3hp direct drive straight vane blower from Grainger. It is powered with a VFD so that I can vary the airflow and pressure. At top speed, it will actually distort the viewing window on top of the machine. I originally used a smaller blower, and it was insufficient to do the job. I engrave a lot of veneer, and it needs to be held flat while cutting.

All of the companies that make these engravers have problems, both with design and customer service. It is a new technology, and there are bound to be problems. You just have to make the best of it.

A few years ago, I purchased a vinyl printer made by encad for $13k. The machine was so badly designed, they stopped making it after one year. We could get no help with it (no support from encad) and finally sold it for $3k. These things happen, and it is just a part of the cost of doing business in a high tech profession. You need to have a reserve for this.... charge enough for your services to cover the disasters that happen now and then. How many times has this happened with computers? I can recall lots of times where we had tremendous problems getting computers to work... sometimes we just had to get rid of them and go with another supplier. No help for it.

Mark

Barb Macdonald
07-31-2008, 11:23 AM
I do find Mark's take on this subject disappointing, and way off the point I've been trying, obviously unsuccessfully, to make.
I admire your expertise greatly, Mark. No-one on this forum would question your wisdom on the myriad of subjects covered. You have a knowledge the rest of us can only aspire to.
In this particular case, I feel I was completely misled, by the specifications given in the Epilog manual. If that means I have to pay for inadequate specifications, I guess I'm also on the hook, when for example, I order a 0.25" cutter, and receive an 0.125" cutter. Too bad, the specifications are incorrect. To me, it's exactly same principle.
I've never said I shouldn't be cleaning less/more often. I've said, all along, that I didn't get any support i.e. answers to direct questions, from my supplier. I asked them for recommendations on a contractor. No. I asked them if there was anything special required for the exhaust. No. Use the manual. I didn't think, at that time, that I needed to contact Epilog. I trusted my rep., he'd never done me wrong before. Heck, I had the manual, with all the specifications in it. I used the manual.
I went through a similar experience as with Mark's plotter, with a Dahlgren 300Z Rotary engraver, some years back. I had a good rapport with my supplier, was told the machine was actually too robust for the use I needed it for. Trouble was, they hadn't exactly finished designing it. I ended up trading it in on my first Xenetech, working away, as I type. I used my own personal money for the initial Xenetech investment, as I felt my company shouldn't need to pay for the Dahlgren bad purchase. I had researched the heck out of the various models. Those machines are still going, well. I paid myself back.
I am not a master machinist. I am not a master engraver. I am not a master of anything really, I got into the business for family reasons. Yes, the worst kind of reason.
I teach a mean riding lesson, and I know way too much about animals, to be called a master engraver. I can run my machines, and I maintain them pretty darned well.
I respect, admire and freely use the advice of my peers. If none is given, I use the manual.

Anyway, a bad day just got badder.

Have a great day

barb

Brian Robison
07-31-2008, 11:55 AM
Like many of you all, I keep reading over this thread. I just don't see how a blower capable of sucking all the cool or hot air out of a room can't pull the smoke out of a laser cabinet unless there is a HUGE restriction someplace.

I'm disappointed in your Epilog rep. I know if I were the rep. I'd be camping out in your front yard until the problem was resolved!

Mark Winlund
07-31-2008, 1:59 PM
I do find Mark's take on this subject disappointing
barb

My point is, welcome to the club. It happens to all of us sooner or later. Perhaps Epilog will help, perhaps not. If not, you have to move on and fix it yourself if you want to be in the business. I really do sympathise with you... believe me, I have been down the same road.

Good luck, Mark

Richard Rumancik
08-01-2008, 9:49 AM
Barb, I don't think Mark is suggesting Epilog has no responsibility in this issue. He said:


I'm not sure that I agree that Epilog should pay for another blower. Perhaps an exchange machine.

Now maybe you feel that a different blower is the answer. But I tend to agree with Mark that Epilog should consider replacing the laser itself (especially if it can't be retrofitted with the new 6" air system.) I agree they did mislead you as to what type of blower was initially needed and perhaps they should take some responsibility for some of the costs.

What is different between your system and David's?

1. different exhaust duct system (4" vs 6")
2. different blower
3. different location of blower
4. different system impedence (ducting)

Anything else you can think of?

Although David may disagree, I really think your blower is not all that much different from David's in terms of performance. (I have plotted the two curves on one chart.) Therefore I have not been enthusiastic about changing blowers. And yes, if you change to a 5 hp blower it will probably work, but there ought to be a better way.

I can't remember if you have 6" ducting beyong the laser itself - can you clarify? (You should use 6" min if you don't already. No sharp elbows etc.)

I don't think the location of the blower has that much effect on the performance of the system.

So that leaves the laser enclosure impedence. (Unless I have forgotten something else that is different.) That is why I suggested trying to retrofit to 6" exhaust ducts but we don't know if this is possible or not. But if not, I would see if Epilog would exchange the machine for the 6" version and (give you a reasonable warranty).

Dan Hintz
08-01-2008, 12:55 PM
Plug the blower directly into the back of the machine with as little ductwork as possible. If it STILL can't evacuate the machine properly, well, you know where the problem lies...

Scott Shepherd
08-05-2008, 1:23 PM
Another week has passed. Any update on resolving Barb's issues?

Didn't seem to take 12 weeks to cash the check, I'm guessing.....