Collector vs. User

[Greg Muller]

Collecting vs. Using

(a take that I learned from my Grampa)

Some tools should be kept, in excellent condition, for Posterity.

What is Posterity you ask?


Posterity is that guy who will have his Grandson visit him and will show him how tools used to work and look and feel. This may be you now, or 30 years from now.


Posterity is that place (it'll say museum on the sign) where people will go to see how things were done in their great-great-grandfathers time.


Posterity is that feeling we get when we realize that we CAN do something in the same manner and with the same quality that things were done during the decades that the working generation made America great.


Those things that are saved for Posterity should be in fine condition.

There are enough "users" out there, but not nearly enough Posterity.

Just my take...
Greg

(a collector and a user)

[Tony Zaffuto]

I (think!) I got more than a few tools that some would consider "collector". My wife may think some of these are "collector". I guess some of them have value.

I do have tools I consider "collector": they are a Kunz squirrel tail block plane that I bought for my (then) 5 year old Galoot in training when she was always in my shop. My #5 run of the mill Bailey my now deceased Father gave me (it was his) some 25 years ago. The 60-1/2 that was always with him (I took this one from his shop on the day of his funeral 4 years ago). The straight blade screwdriver my 25 year old daughter made for me in the junior high shop class she took years ago just to show the boys what she could do.

My point is, value is in the eye of the beholder. I wouldn't trade any of the above for a Wayne Andersen plane (not that I don't covet one of his planes).

T.Z.

[Ray Gardiner]

You are asking a difficult question.
I think we should try to preserve old tools for "posterity" but then comes
the hard part. Let's say I have an antique which is rusted up and broken
handle. I don't think leaving it like that does anything for posterity.
Whereas, If I clean it up, repair the handle (or replace it) sharpen it and
carefully remove any rust (no wire brushes or harsh chemicals) and generally
bring it to working order. Then I have something for posterity.

If on the otherhand, I attack it and sand the handles, and re-paint bright
pink. Hit all the metal surfaces with a wire wheel, I've lost something.

I see side axes for sale at swap meets (our equivalent of a flea market)
where someone has ground a bevel on both sides of the blade with an
angle grinder, rendering the tool useless.

Oh, and don't ask what I think of saw paintings.....

[Mike Henderson]

I'm strictly a user of tools. Anything that could fall into the category of "collectable" I'll leave to the museums. When I get an old tool it's usually in a pretty sad state of repair (unless I get it from another woodworker). I do whatever is needed to make that tool usable, and something that I'd be proud to show to another woodworker. That is, I remove all the rust that I can, polish the metal parts, I true up everything, I may even refinish or replace the wooden handles on tools with wooden handles (chisels and planes mostly). I often replace the blade in a plane, although I always keep the old blade for when I resell it (usually makes the plane bring a higher price).

My philosophy is that the tool is to be used. If it should be conserved, it shouldn't be in my shop.

Mike

[Jim Knight]

Like many, it was my grandpa who taught me about tools, both the ones he grew up with and the ones he used to make toys for me when I was a boy. When I was twelve I decided to start putting together my first tool chest. He went into the building where he kept his tools and lumber (no room in there to work) and came out after some rummaging with a drawknife (drawin' knife as we called them). I had used his, which had been his father's but had not seen this one before. He asked if I could put handles on it. I tried but Grandpa succeeded. He gave it to me for my tool chest and asked if I remembered the old couple whose picture hung in his bedroom. I said, "Yes, that's my great-great-grandpa and great-great-grandma." He said, "That's whose drawin' knife it is."

I have all of Grandpa's tools now and more than enough of my own. I still use both of those drawing knives when the task at hand calls for one. Sometimes the neighbor kids and the assorted eccentrics one finds in a university town ask what I am doing. They ask (and even watch the tool in operation) with exactly the same attitude expressed by the gentleman who started this thread.

[Frank Drew]

My philosophy is that the tool is to be used. If it should be conserved, it shouldn't be in my shop.

Put me down ditto to what Mike said. If it's never used as a tool, is it really a tool?

I'm actually a bit frustrated that so many great tools are taken out of service. I've got some nice, older English infill planes but I never considered not using them; they were in great shape when I got them but had clearly been used by woodworkers. I look at pictures of some of the new generation of handplanes and I'd love to have any of them, but not to put on a shelf. Use doesn't have to mean abuse; it'll still be around for posterity and in fact it will mean more if it was used for its intended purpose. Otherwise it's just an artifact, or an objet d'art.

[Clint Jones]

See post collecting and not using planes.

My post from that thread:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/MVC-201S.jpgYeah I think it would be sensible to use these planes.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/MVC-196S.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/MVC-197S.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/MVC-199S.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/MVC-200S.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/MVC-204S.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/best5.jpg

Maybe we should rip a native american canoe from a museum and start riding it down the river or we can take civil war rifles and hunt with them :D If it werent for the conservation of tools little would be known about their history. How many times a month does someone post "What type is my No.5". If it werent for collectors we wouldnt know or care. I have a few planes and some are for use and some are to look at. Why would I pull a $1000 type 1 94 out of the box that hasnt been used ever to trim a tenon when I have a 93 with BOB scratched on the side can do the same job???? Think about it. -Clint

[Jim Knight]

Clint,
Those are beautiful planes, I too have a plane or two I won't use (though none that beautiful). The point I was trying to make with my own story was that the skills with which old tools of different kinds are used, the fact that people appreciate seeing the operation as much as the tool is a form of the posterity addressed originally. In as much as any tool represents a form of material culture, so to does the form in which it was used. This suggests, to me at least, an important overlap somewhere in between total use and total collecting.

[Mike Henderson]

Clint - I wasn't at all saying that tools shouldn't be conserved. I said that I'm not in the business of conserving them - I use them.

For me, there's too much burden in owning a rare tool (or anything else that's rare). I remember a family that owned a very rare Townsend piece of furniture. They finally decided to donate it to a museum but had exact duplicates made for each member of the family. The museum was better equiped to conserve the piece, and the family was relieved of the cost to insure, protect, and maintain the piece.

In my shop, I only have user tools - and only want user tools. If someone gave me a Stanley #1, I'd either use it or I'd sell it.

Mike

[Frank Drew]

Clint,

I think that the canoes and rifles we'd find in museums were very likely used at one time.

The reason one would choose to use a Hotley plane vs. any of your Stanley planes should be obvious; I'm certain it is to Mr. Hotley. And that's not the same as suggesting we use, and possibly abuse, highly fragile, singularly historic, one-of-a-kind relics.

A guy like Hotley would probably quit making planes if he thought that none of them were ever going to be used; that, or else redefine his work as metal sculpture (but then why bother making such a nice tight mouth?)

Collectors are entirely free to do anything with whatever objects they buy, but I'm not going to accept that the best use of a tool isn't in the using (carefully and respectfully).

[Joe Cunningham]

I don't buy collector quality tools because I intend to use them.

I do appreciate tool collections of fine tools, and certainly wouldn't expect the collector to use them for their intended purpose.

For example, back in another life time (it seems) I worked as an archaeologist. We used to recreate stone tools AND use them to discern what an tool was actually used for in antiquity. Sometimes we could get a general idea from wear patterns on the tool, other times not, and sometimes we just had no clue what the intended use of the tool was.

In this re-creation process, we'd also get an idea how the tool was made, but of course we can never be sure for items which have no historical record or historical analog.

But we'd never EVER think of using a pristine, ancient stone tool for these experiments.

Some day I'll mix my old stone tool making techniques with wood working and put together a real Neandertal project thread--I wonder if you can use an obsidian blade in a wooden plane...

[Tony Zaffuto]

Clint,

About your point about shooting that Civil War collector rifle, I am a collector of Civil War artifacts. About five years ago, I picked up a Civil War Kepi (cap) with a Fifth Corps emblem on top in better than good condition. I was (am for that matter still am) proud of this addition to my collection. I had it out of one of my display cabinets and was showing it to my then-living father and my still-living mother. My father took it from me and handled it as gingerly as it deserved. My mother literally grabbed it and plompted it on her head! I had a heart attack!

Five years later, the Kepi has not left its display station, but I do have one H_ LL of a story to tell! Probably has added some value to the cap, eh?

T.Z.

[Billy Chambless]

I'm strictly a user of tools. Anything that could fall into the category of "collectable" I'll leave to the museums. When I get an old tool it's usually in a pretty sad state of repair (unless I get it from another woodworker). I do whatever is needed to make that tool usable, and something that I'd be proud to show to another woodworker. That is, I remove all the rust that I can, polish the metal parts, I true up everything, I may even refinish or replace the wooden handles on tools with wooden handles (chisels and planes mostly). I often replace the blade in a plane, although I always keep the old blade for when I resell it (usually makes the plane bring a higher price).

My philosophy is that the tool is to be used. If it should be conserved, it shouldn't be in my shop.

Mike


That's pretty much my take.

I try to leave my tools as original as possible without sacrificing usability -- if something's broke, I fix it.

With that said, I'd glad people like Clint and collecting and preserving the stuff that should be preserved. I don't see a conflict, as I mostly buy stuff that collectors wouldn't care about. Most of my planes have an apology or two, but they all work.

[Ron Dunn]

There are collectors for the public benefit, and there are collectors for personal gain. The difference: Are the items on public display?

[Ray Sheley]

I'm primarily a user and bargain hunter. I look for desirable pieces that have minor apologies that I can work around and fix up, they get cleaned and fettled as necessary, and I go happily on my way using my finds. However I occasionally stumble across something special, and I admit that I have trouble using them unecessarily. Fortunately I am blessed to have extra and usable samples for most of my "collector" pieces so I am not forced to use them. Though if needed, I would use them much hesitation and just use the care that they would deserve. Let's face it most times we are merely adding more use to a tool that has seem at least some previous use. But if you had say the bronze-mangenese versions of a Lie-Nielsen #9 miter plane, or a numbered 4 1/2 in addition to the ductile iron versions would you use both, or would you store the NIB Bronze models? I bet most would chose to store them, though my hat is off to those that say they're mine, and I'll use them because I want to. Different strokes.....

[Jack Camillo]

Why can't users be collectors? I try keep my handtools in (near) new condition in between uses. If you buy the best you can afford, and take exceptional care of them, there's no question they'll be there to show the next couple generations. Just a personal opinion, of course. I think I'd like to die looking at the tools I used, and the items I created with them and not the ones in the boxes or behind glass. Those spaces are reserved for...<enter words>

[Jim Koepke]

I think if I had the fine collectable tool, the temptation to use it would be too great for me to keep it.

As a collector of non-tool artifacts, I know the responsibility of taking care of historic items for future generations. One is really only a caretaker in the history of an item.

If by some strange occurrence a truly collectable plane came into my possession, it would likely be sold for its collector value and I would buy a few users with the profits.

I have a 4-1/2 type 6 in very nice condition. If I were able to get a type 10 or 11 in good condition for about the same price I paid for it, I might be inclined to sell it. Though a type 6 is really not on collector's hot lists.

jim

[Randal Stevenson]

Why can't users be collectors?


For a lot of people here, time in the shop is both valuable and rare (me lately). So our users ARE collectors (of dust at least).

While I would like to have some as collectables, I don't have enough room or $$$. I have had friends (the best one late about 2 years ago), who made their livings with "antiques/collectables" and tended to keep collections of things, then would switch to a different type of collectable/antique.
I have also read on other boards/in magazines about stores that still have some old stock squirelled away. According to some, some good, but others never sold, due to (effectively) manufacturing defects (looks pretty but doesn't function). Some could be tuned, but they were sold so readily at the time, it wasn't worth it (pick up another box).

[Dave Anderson NH]

This is a complex equation with many variables. Collecting has many forms and many levels. There is a large difference between the person or museum which has collected a one of a kind or extremely rare tool and the general collector who is building a collection where the tool in question was mass produced in the 100s of thousands. In the former case the tool should in my opinion be never used. In the later, why not use it since its only value is to the collector and it is neither rare nor probably likely to be valuable.

As a point of reference. At one time many years ago, the Hay Cabinet Shop at Colonial Williamsburg used original planes from the 18th and early 19th century while making their furniture and demonstrating for the public. A re-examination of their tools and their philosophy showed that they were seriously degrading these often rare and irreplacable examples. They placed these tools in their permanent collection and have for many years now been preserving them for posterity and future study. All daily work is now done with accurate reproductions made in either their tool making shop, by the historic area blacksmiths, or purchased from such vendors as our own Larry Williams of Clark & Williams. This holds true not just for the Hay Shop, but for every one of the historic reenactment shops at Williamsburg.

Personally I am fortunate enough to have a number of tools passed down from as many as 7 generations of my family which I use. While some are over 150 years old, none are rare or particularly valuable except for their familial association. They were all lovingly maintained over the generations and most never showed any signs of rust, only the patina of age. I thoroughly enjoy using a 28" Chapin jointer that works as well as the day it was made in Connecticut. The thrill gets even better when I think about the fact that James Anderson, my great-great-great Grandfather used this plane to make his living as a shipwright and carpenter in Cambridge Mass from the 1840s until his retirement. To hold in your hands a tool of that ilk is to me the highest form of collecting.

Yup, I guess you could say I'm both a collector and a user.

[Jim Koepke]

There is a large difference between the person or museum which has collected a one of a kind or extremely rare tool and the general collector who is building a collection where the tool in question was mass produced in the 100s of thousands. In the former case the tool should in my opinion be never used. In the later, why not use it since its only value is to the collector and it is neither rare nor probably likely to be valuable.

One example could be a Stanley 45. A very common plane made in the 100s of thousands. I have one from my great grandfather, a type 6. I use it. If one were found in unused condition, the reasoning that it was mass produced goes out the window. There are very few pristine examples. Because of that, the value is exponentially higher than the same plane complete, but with the patina of use and age. If someone is willing to open their wallet and let hundred dollar bills fall on my bench until I cry uncle, it does not matter what reality says, they can have it, I will take the money. God bless collectors.

A good example for comparison is coinage and the collectors of coins. These were mainly made for circulation. Some were put aside and kept from the wear and tear of their purpose. There is a set system of grading coins. Wish this could be applied to tools. Each step of increase in grade causes a collector coin to increase in value with few exceptions. I have not followed coin prices in many years, but the steps were more logarithmic than straight line.

If a pristine unused type 12 No. 4 Stanley came into my possession, I may fondle it a bit, but most surely, I would come to my senses and sell it to a collector. The money would most likely be enough to buy a whole lot of users.

The only thing that would make me think different would be if it was a family heirloom.

jim

[Ray Gardiner]

I fear I am becoming a collector..

Garage sales, on-line catalogues, tool reviews, swap meets, you name it.
Ebay is the worst. I keep seeing bargains. (and bidding for them) knowing
full well I don't **really** need more tools to do woodworking.

There is nothing more pleasing to my sense of design than something that
has been designed with pure absolute functionality in mind. I don't care
what it looks like from and aesthetic point of view, it's all about function.

When I first saw an open dovetail saw handle, I thought it looked overly
decorative. But now I appreciate the subtlety of the shape and there is
very little decoration or embellishment. The shape is a direct result of the
shape of your hand and how it functions when pushing a saw.

That's the real beauty in old tools.

Now, how can I stop buying stuff I don't need......

[Frank Drew]

OCTBD -- Obsessive-Compulsive Tool Buying Disorder; many of us have it to one degree or another.

But tools, unlike a lot of other things people collect, can actually do something. We think of more possibilities if we have certain tools.

That's my story, anyway, and I'm sticking to it.

[Jim Koepke]

OCTBD -- Obsessive-Compulsive Tool Buying Disorder; many of us have it to one degree or another.

But tools, unlike a lot of other things people collect, can actually do something. We think of more possibilities if we have certain tools.

That's my story, anyway, and I'm sticking to it.

Your wife has not caught on. My wife looks at the accumulation of tools and wonders why there is not an accumulation of new furniture for the house.

Though she does mention that my buying tools keeps me busy enough to keep me out of other trouble...

jim